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Feedbacks & clarifications

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 3, 2021, 1:11 am.

Based on your reply, it feels like you're not agreeing with the feedback, or not willing to accept it, and are seeking to re-open the discussion to assess whether or not the feedback or the warning are valid.

I don't understand why you're saying this based on everything that I wrote. It seems we don't understand each other on this topic. Let's talk because in writing I've done my best and it seems not to get anywhere.

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Stef

I think what Lucio means is that he feels you have a long, defensive and convoluted narrative based on a hard to follow/atypical perspective that frames as almost virtues what in his perspective are not so much "mistakes" as the manifestation of a tendency to sometimes be combative, imposing and using unnecessary power moves against other members of the forum.

I think he would be satisfied with a short and to the point answer like: "well, yes sometimes I have used unnecessary power moves in the forum, I will try to avoid doing that in the future/be more careful about it, as everyone here should"

Of course I may be 100% wrong in my understanding of this situation...

I am pretty sure myself many times, in this forum and/or in real life have used nasty and unnecessary power moves.

As Lucio says you are a liked, valued and respected member of this forum and we all benefit from your wisdom, it is just some here think they have detected a pattern and that is what we are trying to understand or to clarify.

A little of topic:

"This forum is not the real life."

I would say in a way it is real life, there is no easy way to make a distinction between real and "unreal", the other day in Brazil some crazy guy killed a girl in revenge of his call of duty team losing an online match... When there is a high level of human interaction the virtual becomes closer to reality in many ways and consequences.

Anyways the virtual is also real since everything that exist is part of reality, but this is just semantic mental masturbation...

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Thanks for the clarification, Stef. That is also my understanding of what is communicated to me.

I'm afraid there is a new misunderstanding from my part with the "forum is not the real life". It is based on a conversation we had with Lucio. He said that the forum was the place where we could experiment and make mistakes because it was a training ground. The real life is what mattered. We come to the forum to learn and then we can use it in real life. So I thought that this was the frame of reference of the forum knowing that himself said it.

I think what Lucio means is that he feels you have a long, defensive and convoluted narrative based on a hard to follow/atypical perspective that frames as almost virtues what in his perspective are not so much "mistakes" as the manifestation of a tendency to sometimes be combative, imposing and using unnecessary power moves against other members of the forum.

Yeah, I'm sad that this is how it is perceived. I understand your point of view, thanks for the honesty. I see how it looks like and I'm learning from it.

Why do you think that I did not make a mistake? Could you please explain: I don't understand. I understand that from the outside it could feel like an excuse. But what is your thinking? Because I do understand I have a different frame of reference from you guys and I have to understand yours. Could you enlighten me?

My pattern was to go overboard when I felt attacked on the forum. I learned that from the outside it makes me look like the aggressor, because with my defense I went beyond the original aggression.

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StefTransitionedselffriend

"Why do you think that I did not make a mistake"

Well frankly because I consider you a very smart guy and I have this tendency to find it hard to believe that all those "dark" techniques coming from someone as articulate as you, and with above average understanding of power dynamics, are 100% the result of mistakes and 0% of doing-it-on-purpose with full awareness of their "dark" side.

Then again, we all make mistakes, and the definition of what is a "mistake" can be problematic given life purpose is a controversial topic.

About this place being ground for practice, well yeah I also agree and in a sense you are right and it is "not real life"as Lucio himself put it, yet at the same time, well, it is real life,  I guess you  guys can get what I try to mean and maybe someone can help me with a less contradictory way of wording it...

I would say even if the forum is not real life, we should emulate up to a point real life, so that will make the "practice" more translatable to reality.

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Quote from Stef on April 3, 2021, 9:30 am

"Why do you think that I did not make a mistake"

Well frankly because I consider you a very smart guy and I have this tendency to find it hard to believe that all those "dark" techniques coming from someone as articulate as you, and with above average understanding of power dynamics, are 100% the result of mistakes and 0% of doing-it-on-purpose with full awareness of their "dark" side.

Well, then I will surprise you. It's very flattering coming from you but I make mistakes like everyone else. That is why I'm on this forum: to learn! I consider myself a beginner in this stuff as in everything else. If there was any doubt left, the truthful answer is: No, I was not aware of this. For me, I was having a honest interaction and not using power moves. I was defending myself from what I felt was an unfair request. This is my experience of what happened.

Was it smart to name someone who was not 100% at peace with me (I was not aware of it, otherwise I would have not done it) in a post in a way that could possibly be interpreted as covert aggressive? I think not. But now I know.

Was it smart to not deal with it indirectly and face-saving? I think not. But now I know.

Was it smart to deal with it in ways that could be interpreted in me dealing with it in a dishonest way, despite me knowing it could be? I think not. But now I know.

I naively thought that my benevolent intentions were enough that using definitions would be interpreted in a way that I intend them to: to shine a light on the reality. But in those moments of conflict, the frame is that it's one person is right and the other is wrong. So any attempt of any sort is interpreted as one person trying to be right, trying to impose their frame on the other. The only frame I worked hard to impose: it is a learning opportunity.

I was not aware of many things as you can see. These kind of things are one of my many weaknesses.

I also learned that people cannot know our intentions nor motivations. They can only see our behaviours. This is one of the many lessons I learned. I accept the image I'm giving off and I learn from it. I was not aware I could be perceived this way. It reminded me the many times I let myself get baited towards anger. This is a lesson I still have to learn it seems. Self-control is very important for this reason. I also learned that for people to assume positive intentions from someone they have to like and trust you.

About this place being ground for practice, well yeah I also agree and in a sense you are right and it is "not real life"as Lucio himself put it, yet at the same time, well, it is real life,  I guess you  guys can get what I try to mean and maybe someone can help me with a less contradictory way of wording it...

I would say even if the forum is not real life, we should emulate up to a point real life, so that will make the "practice" more translatable to reality.

Alright, I see your point. It makes sense. I'll think about it. So from your perspective, if I would have considered that the forum is supposed to be like real life: I  would have not reacted like this.

So thanks for your honesty, it helped me to see better what I did wrong.

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Stef

For me, I was having a honest interaction and not using power moves.

You are welcome John.

Then you (in defense mode) seems to have a lot of natural/unconscious talent for dominance while debating, lets say as if someone is very strong and his handshakes are so powerful he is crushing people hands without knowing it (in fact he is trying to give a nice and proper handshake), in that case, now that you are becoming aware, I supposed is just a matter of being a little extra diplomatic/careful until you get the optimum calibration in most situations, context, circumstances and scenarios and know exactly how much strength to apply even in cases of legitimate self defense (as too soft of a handshake also feels off: dead fish grip).

I would add that from my part I am ok if someone here occasionally use "heavy" or "not-totally fair" tactics against me, as I would take it as a much needed opportunity to practice self defense and calibrated counter attack in a relatively safe virtual space.

 

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Quote from Stef on April 3, 2021, 11:15 am

For me, I was having a honest interaction and not using power moves.

You are welcome John.

Then you (in defense mode) seems to have a lot of natural/unconscious talent for dominance while debating, lets say as if someone is very strong and his handshakes are so powerful he is crushing people hands without knowing it (in fact he is trying to give a nice and proper handshake), in that case, now that you are becoming aware, I supposed is just a matter of being a little extra diplomatic/careful until you get the optimum calibration in most situations, context, circumstances and scenarios and know exactly how much strength to apply even in cases of legitimate self defense (as too soft of a handshake also feels off: dead fish grip).

Thanks a lot for this advice. Yes this is a new awareness for me and it's a bit scary at the same time. I definitely have to upgrade my social intelligence in this regard. I might have pushed people away in real life by having reacted too strongly when defending myself. For instance, I now know I have been accusatory with one of my supervisor when I intended to be assertive (I was not aware at the time). And I know I projected some aggression towards her despite my best intentions and efforts. So my anger got the best of me and I know I damaged our relationship. I'm sure I did it in other instances, with colleagues for instance. I think it's about walking the middle way.

I would add that from my part I am ok if someone here occasionally use "heavy" or "not-totally fair" tactics against me, as I would take it as a much needed opportunity to practice self defense and calibrated counter attack in a relatively safe virtual space.

Definitely!

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Stef
Quote from Stef on April 3, 2021, 11:15 am

I would add that from my part I am ok if someone here occasionally use "heavy" or "not-totally fair" tactics against me, as I would take it as a much needed opportunity to practice self defense and calibrated counter attack in a relatively safe virtual space.

You gave me an idea: we could make a thread specifically developed for arguing.

Say, one comes with a topic and each takes sides, either for, or against.

Then, it becomes a free for all training ground.

There are debating competitions like that.
But this would be on a written medium, and with other shrewd, power-aware folks -plus, third party feedback whenever available-.

Outside of that post-specific thread though, I can't have any high concentrations of aggressive/ covert aggressive / manipulative / fragile egos examples lying around.

Examples of behavior that are at the same time high power / assertive, respectful and effective, are rarer than poorer ones, and thus far more useful.

There's enough turkeys scratching on most other online forums.
The way I see it, it's either this community sets the eagles' examples -or at least strives towards that example: nobody's a perfect eagle-, or it's best not to have it at all.

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Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

That is a very good idea, in that space or in another similar (i.e. "the dark side of the force thread" ) we may even allow or encourage "simulated nasty power moves" and "simulated online bullying", just to practice self defence, obviously people participating there would need a very anti-fragile ego and clear understanding of the purpose of being exposed to that, and emotional-self mastery and/or a playful disposition, some level of detachment, etc.

Yet I think it is risky as the possibility of really offending is there, as we know "jokes" or fiction can be ways of hurting someone, so we may still need some rules about what kind of behavior, insults, ad hominens, etc would not be part of the game.

 

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Quote from Stef on April 3, 2021, 10:54 pm

That is a very good idea, in that space or in another similar (i.e. "the dark side of the force thread" ) we may even allow or encourage "simulated nasty power moves" and "simulated online bullying", just to practice self defence, obviously people participating there would need a very anti-fragile ego and clear understanding of the purpose of being exposed to that, and emotional-self mastery and/or a playful disposition, some level of detachment, etc.

Yet I think it is risky as the possibility of really offending is there, as we know "jokes" or fiction can be ways of hurting someone, so we may still need some rules about what kind of behavior, insults, ad hominens, etc would not be part of the game.

OFF-TOPIC

True to all of that.

One way to mitigate that risk could be to use a second username just for that exercise.

Say, you're Stef now, and if we're talking, I wouldn't go nearly as I'd hard because I like you.
And if I did, you might like me less because of the nasty power moves I'd use.

But then you'd have a second username where you're Mr.X, and I have no idea who you are, and I'd have a second username with Mr.Y, and you'd have no idea who I am.
Just two nasty, newly-minted, anonymous mothafuckers going at each other and learning from it :).

OFF-TOPIC

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Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
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