Quote from Emily on January 24, 2024, 4:40 am

Wow, okay I've never been here before and this feels like uncharted waters.

Anyway, glad to see candid feedback here. Yes I was hesitant to say "hope this helps" but also felt if I ended before then it also didn't make enough effort to connect - i.e., could come off as something that is not relevant enough so self-centered. I personally don't think "hope this helps" is particularly great but I had no alternatives in mind.

I don't view "problems" as particularly disempowering - I live in an English-speaking country and didn't feel that when people say there are problems they mean the particular person is problematic - big distinction there, at least in my mind and in my circle. Everybody's got their shit, so to speak.

My reply was mostly about sharing my own experiences as a way to emotionally connect. My personal sense is that (not power move, not teacher frame here please) men tend to intellectualize emotional issues, I was simply offering a perspective. There could be value differences and I accept that.

I feel it was unfair to say that I "pulled a power move" looking at my reply as a whole. I was being open, flexible and vulnerable.

I would also say that the tone of that post makes me a bit uncomfortable - how about we replace intelligence with having money:

Hey I am so rich I have x million dollars but I am not connecting with people around me because they are not as rich as me, how can I go and find rich people I can relate to?

Looking at it this way it feels pretty socially unsavory to me.

In terms of the subject matter as an intellectual topic (not a personal emotional issue like I tried to address), I don't have anything to say about intelligence. I remember I took a traditional IQ test and my score was close to 140. I guess it says that I'm above average, but I don't give a damn about traditional IQ test or my scoring, as they are simply irrelevant to me. There is so much more richness in people and existence in general than some arbitrary score - which I also feel is outdated in psychology.

Quote from John Freeman on January 24, 2024, 9:23 am

Hello Lucio, Ali,

I think this thread is a great experiment and I learn a lot from it. However I would like to say that the tone being used with me since I’ve been using it sounds patronizing to me. I’ve been talked to like a child many times here and I don’t like it. That’s not the way I talk to you. I talk to you as adults and I expect the same respect back.

Maybe what you guys call “off” is that in the past I  took all of these humiliations (that’s what they are to me) and shut my mouth and I’m not willing to take them anymore. In my social life, with my friends, family and here as well.

So I would like you talk to me like an adult and not like a child. It feels even more off knowing that I’m older than you both. It's not the main point though but it's part of it as well. The main point is that I deserve to be treated with respect as a person first and foremost. And I expect the same respect that I extend to you.

Yes I’m doing mistakes but that does not allow you guys to have a condescending tone with me. I propose we treat one another as adults. Yes leadership is not easy I know it but unneeded leadership capital is lost with such tone.

I know you guys are admins and I’m a member, I know I made mistakes but I think this is not a good reason enough.

I totally was willing to explain myself above for the sake of the relationship, the learning and the respect I have for you both. I did my part. This is what I need to have a good relationship with you both after a few of these “F&C”. Because frankly I lose trust in both of you when you speak to me like that and I feel hurt.

On my side after having expressed myself it's all good. Of course if you feel like answering I want to know what you guys think. My goal is to improve our communication and relationship. And sometimes things that have been unsaid must be said. It goes through a period of unease to build more trust moving forward.

I cannot possibly know what you guys will think and feel reading this. That's what I think and what I feel.

Finally, I want you to know that I respect and like you both. I don't know if it's not reciprocal and it's all good whatever the case may be. I don't want nor need to know. Expressing my inner thoughts and feelings to you is a mark of respect not only to me but also to you. That's how I see it.

Best regards,

John

edit: multiple edits.

Quote from John Freeman on January 24, 2024, 11:42 am

Hello Emily,

thank you very much for your answer.

Quote from Emily on January 24, 2024, 4:40 am

Wow, okay I've never been here before and this feels like uncharted waters.

I also feel this way. Feels uncomfortable at first but the learning is worth it in my experience.

Anyway, glad to see candid feedback here. Yes I was hesitant to say "hope this helps" but also felt if I ended before then it also didn't make enough effort to connect - i.e., could come off as something that is not relevant enough so self-centered. I personally don't think "hope this helps" is particularly great but I had no alternatives in mind.

Thanks for your transparency. Yes and that was also my initial reaction since you evoke it. You were talking about yourself and it did feel self-centered to me (hence my reaction to the block then backtracking as I read it the second time the way you intended it: to help). Thinking about an alternative, I'm thinking that ending the thread after having talked about you maybe something that would have built report back or built the group back could have softened it. (As you noted I speak about me a lot so I'm in the position of a reflection that includes me). Like: "Glad to exchange with you on that topic" (but I understand in english it's not the right word so maybe "Glad to converse with you on that topic"). Something along those lines.

I'm the author so I'm not going to suggest to build rapport with me (bias, self-serving) but that could be an option generally speaking. In short instead of claiming credit (I helped) giving credit (you guys helped me). Even if you did give value, giving credit will improve your relationships more than claiming it in my mind. That's how I view it and there are definitely other approaches I think. So maybe viewing it through the law of social exchanges: investing social credit rather than banking it. My 2 cents. Of course please feel free to disagree.

I don't view "problems" as particularly disempowering - I live in an English-speaking country and didn't feel that when people say there are problems they mean the particular person is problematic - big distinction there, at least in my mind and in my circle. Everybody's got their shit, so to speak.

Yeah here choice of words. Different words resonate differently in other people's minds. Usually I view it the same way as you do. Here in that particular context it felt differently to me. Yes, it means I made assumptions on other person's intentions and that's bad communication. Yet we tend to become more defensive if there is misunderstanding 1 + 2 + the feeling of a power move (could be wrong) then the speaker loses the benefit of the doubt. If there is misunderstanding 1 + 2 and the other person feels respected, probably this person will give the benefit of the doubt.

My reply was mostly about sharing my own experiences as a way to emotionally connect. My personal sense is that (not power move, not teacher frame here please) men tend to intellectualize emotional issues, I was simply offering a perspective. There could be value differences and I accept that.

I think it's more of a generalization. For instance, I'll give you an example where my recent GF was the one to intellectualize emotional issue. And here unfortunately I did not get the message. I'll re-read it again. I think that prefacing it with: "if we look at it from an emotional point of view, here is how I see it" then it opens up the person to the speaker's perspective. And also shifts from "men vs women" to "between you and me".

I feel it was unfair to say that I "pulled a power move" looking at my reply as a whole. I was being open, flexible and vulnerable.

Yeah, that's the thing. One person could express themselves with sincere and honest intentions and the message could be perceived differently. Hence the usefulness of this thread for me. I view communication this way: one person says "this is how I feel, think and how I perceived it" and the other person answers likewise in a loop. As long as we keep the channel of communication open as we're doing right now it's all good. It's always possible a conversation ends without a common understanding but at least both person will have had the opportunity to express themselves and feel heard. So thank you for being open to this conversation. I do feel heard and I hope you feel the same.

I would also say that the tone of that post makes me a bit uncomfortable - how about we replace intelligence with having money:

Hey I am so rich I have x million dollars but I am not connecting with people around me because they are not as rich as me, how can I go and find rich people I can relate to?

Well, it's cool we can talk about it. I view it differently and that's why I think intelligence is such a thorny subject. It is considered positive, like money as you say. Yes it's positive, yes it's an advantage. In this thread (and it seems I failed to express it properly) I view it more as a difference. So it sounds like you say but that's not how I meant it. I view it this way: more like I like tennis and I think it's more advantageous to find people who like tennis as well. And some people will see tennis as a sport for elites so it might be perceived as looking at other people from above but this is not how I view it (even if I still sometimes do: my mistake). Yes it's an advantage but it's more on the difference side that I intended to discuss it.

Looking at it this way it feels pretty socially unsavory to me.

I see your point of view.

In terms of the subject matter as an intellectual topic (not a personal emotional issue like I tried to address), I don't have anything to say about intelligence. I remember I took a traditional IQ test and my score was close to 140. I guess it says that I'm above average, but I don't give a damn about traditional IQ test or my scoring, as they are simply irrelevant to me. There is so much more richness in people and existence in general than some arbitrary score - which I also feel is outdated in psychology.

Well, personally I think it's relevant. Just like height or socio-economic background. It will influence our lives (both our needs, our perceptions and how other perceive us) and that's why I think it's important to take it into consideration. Yes, there are limits to the IQ concept and it probably need refreshing. I think it does as you do. To me, it's more about self-awareness and self-knowledge. I think the most important consequence of it is the need of mental stimulation. Once one acknowledge this need, one can take it into account in his/her choices. To make choices that are more beneficial to one's own well-being and self-esteem. Of course, this self-awareness does not need to be found through IQ testing. It does not mean the person is only his/her IQ just as height is not the only variable to describe a person. I feel it's still part of the person's characteristics. The issue is that it's been overused and stigmatized (no matter high or low) so just like concepts like love, etc. I feel it's a sensitive topic.

All in all, thank you for the conversation. I feel I understand you better now and it's important to me. So thank you for that.

If you want to converse more or want to discuss some points above I'm up for it of course. If you feel there are any power move in the text above happy to discuss it as well.

One last thing: I think teacher frames can be fine for me. I think without teacher frames there is no teaching and therefore no learning. I feel the difference is between the two attitudes/frames:

1. I'm superior and I know better so here is what you don't know (one-upping): I'm sometimes guilty of it here or IRL, working on it.
2. Here is this cool thing I learned/know and you might be interested: more power protecting.

I could  be wrong though and open to learn differently. I think I'm fine with the second one. I think so but could be wrong due to biased self-perception: we think we're all good about it but we're not. So all I can say is that I think that ideally the person on the receiving end of the second method have more room to take it as intended: as a gift. It's like someone gifts someone else something: "here is what I brought you. I thought you would enjoy it. I hope you will like it."

Sincerely,

John

edits: content and corrections

Quote from John Freeman on January 24, 2024, 12:21 pm

Hello Lucio, Ali,

I want to communicate as well as possible, so here are a few corrections.

First I did not express it but I'm aware I could be wrong about what I wrote. I mean it.

About age, I'm sure it will be considered as a power move so I prefer to address it first. I personally respect people older than me by default (as everyone else). It's only when the person said or did something that made them unworthy of respect that I will revise my judgment. This is how I intend it here. I learned here that it's a mistake to automatically respect older people no matter their behaviour I agree. And here I don't feel I said or did anything in that direction. Again I could be wrong.

I know it but unneeded leadership capital is lost with such tone.

This also could be perceived as a power move. If it is then my apologies.

Correction:

I totally was willing to explain myself above for the sake of the relationship, the learning and the respect I have for you both. I feel like I did my part. This is what I need to have a good relationship with you both after a few of these “F&C”. Because frankly I lose trust in both of you when you speak to me like that and I feel hurt.

Correction:

I don't know if it's reciprocal or not and I'm ok with it whatever the case may be.

Here I mean that I'm not seeking reassurance nor reciprocation. I express how I feel on my end of the relationship. It's my way to say: "I accept that you might feel differently about me".

I'm exhausted from work so my communication might not be the best. My apologies if that is the case. I do prefer to express myself in a "not-ideal-way" rather than not at all. Also I'm not the best person for choosing the right timing for conversations, I'm aware of it and I'm working on it.

And lastly, if you feel like answering is too much of a time and energy investment for you it's all good. I respect your time so I don't want to be the person for you with whom it's a drag to converse. I don't want to be "annoyingly troubled".

Sincerely,

John

Quote from Emily on January 25, 2024, 2:01 am

Hi John, thanks for your response - I feel you are more open about your thought processes and I respect that. This is helpful and effective communication. I think sometimes when things are left unsaid we assume hostility - that's always a bias we have just as humans.

From your words, I also learnt a bit more too as what can be perceived as disempowering vs. power-protecting, regardless of my own original intention. This is what I realized and I am actively practicing but your words are also reaffirming, so thank you.

Quote from John Freeman on January 25, 2024, 12:44 pm

Hello Emily,

thank you for the kind words and your sincerity.

Quote from Emily on January 25, 2024, 2:01 am

I feel you are more open about your thought processes and I respect that. This is helpful and effective communication.

I take it as a compliment, I feel you honour me, thank you. Indeed, you perceived it: I think openness and open-mindedness are very important. It's the first time someone say that to me and understand me on that level. So thank you.

I think sometimes when things are left unsaid we assume hostility - that's always a bias we have just as humans.

Yes, I see it the same way.  I think communication is a never-ending journey and so important. We cannot mind-read so we make assumptions and hypothesis about what the other person thinks and means (which we assume reflexively is against us of course, as you mentioned). We base (erroneously) our behaviour on that and we end up in tension, lock-ups, conflicts that were not even there in the first place. Sometimes when we finally understand one another we might discover that we disagree, that we have different perspectives, that we have different values or that we are not compatible with the other person. It's all good as we are different by nature. That does not mean there is a reason to fight. Sometimes the fight is necessary, but for a good reason: serving a cause, helping someone in need, protecting ourselves, preventing a costly mistake, a loved one, etc. But most of the times what we are really protecting is our ego. And as you said we go into fight mode because we assumed hostility.

From your words, I also learnt a bit more too as what can be perceived as disempowering vs. power-protecting, regardless of my own original intention. This is what I realized and I am actively practicing but your words are also reaffirming, so thank you.

Well, again I feel you honour me. I'm happy that you found something useful in my ramblings :). I'm on the same path, I think this power dynamics, social skills, self-development is very challenging to learn. At least it is to me.

Your message touched me because I felt you had the courage to be vulnerable. And as you and I see this brought us closer. So I give the honour back to you as it is due. To kneel is courageous, to kneel in return is even more courageous. As the second person could take advantage of the exposed vulnerability to "win". And we need to be at the same level to talk with one another eye-to-eye. And sometimes we get on our high horses in a furious and absurd escalation. Because in this escalation the only outcome is win-lose or lose-lose. So the real fight is already lost: the relationship will be damaged. The fight that is worth fighting I feel is the fight to understand better one another, not to win over the other person.

From my heart, thank you very much. I feel we're on the same team. BTW, I want to tell you I'll answer to your threads as time, priorities and context permits. (Transitioned is already on it with some gold!!! :) )

Quote from John Freeman on January 26, 2024, 10:37 pm

Hello Ali, Lucio,

I thought about what you wrote. Despite my best effort, there are still several things that I don't understand.

So I definitely need your help to better understand your perspective and what you mean.

So I propose you a short phone call (or video: better) in order to do so.

I respect our time: yours and mine. It is precious. So I think a call is more efficient than back-and-forth here.

Sincerely,

John