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First experience with a Dark triad.
Today I went to the fist meeting of the debate club I recently joined. Overall I know it will be a really good oportunity to meet new people, improve my "people skills", and become more articulate and knowledgeable. My club partners seem all to be really good people, in fact the organiser and leader seemed like a cool guy, although he pulls power moves from time to time, he left me with a strange feeling.
However, there's one person that catched my attention, I'll describe her:
- She wears extravagant clothes, black clothes to be more particular.
- She´s cunning, really intelligent, charming, extroverted, quick witted and high power.
- I believe that she's really power aware.
- She admitted to be a machiavellian (not with those words of course) with a dog-eat-dog mindset, and really really power hungry. I quote her: "We live in a cruel world in which we take advantage of each other, here in this group we are of a different kind, society expects most people to behave in a certain way, however we've discovered the rules of the game, why not play it by the rules?"
- She pulls lots of power moves: one upping, tasking, setting subtle negative frames, apologising to disempower, using facial expressions to disempower, babying.
At first I didn't realize about this, I had my power googles off, but I felt something was off, lets say it was all subconcious. However, after some time talking with her I began to feel uneased, and it increased with time, by then I began to pay attention to her and I was gettint more and more anxious eventually entering fight or flight mode :).
I'll describe some power moves of her:
Her: Power duck, hold this cola bottle.
Power duck: *confused holds it*, sure, you have to pay me later.
Her: Haha, no.
I bantered with her later about her treating me as a rack. And guess what happened? Some time after that she tasked me again and told me to hold the same bottle.... it was almost empty. I refused to hold it in a joking tone and she answered:
Her: "Haha, I dont want more anyway" *and she throw it into the trash bin.*
Now that i think about it, it seems like this was totally on purpose.
Some time before this she had already played another power move:
Her: I don't consider myself a person who has extreme political ideas.
Power Duck: I find that interesting, after all think about a person that thinks extreme ideas, wouldn't he say that he doesn't have extreme ideas?
Her: *Wtf face*
Power Duck: I'm not saying that you are like that or anything but I find this interesting, it's something that we all humans do.
Her: What does this have to do with anything?
Power Duck: Well I mentioned earlier that I like psychology and I find this matter interesting, so I related the comment of politics to something very common in psychology. Again I'm not saying that you're like that.
...
Her: .....well who knows I could be like that or not.
What I said was kind of a negative frame for her, hence the power protection. However a mach individual would have used the power protection as an excuse to hide the ill intentions, similar to the: "Some people say that you are....., but I'm not saying that y'know?. Value taking individuals interpret that others are pulling power moves when they're in doubt, after all that's what they do.
About her admitting to be mach, I'll give more details, it blows my mind how she let that detail slip.
CONTEXT: we are having a conversation about politics, capitalism and societal rules, we are a group of 5 people, eating in a restaurant after the meeting. The dark triad is a self proclaimed feminist who used to believe that the world could turn into a utopia or so she says.
Her: I used to believe that we could live in a world where everything is perfect, I treated everyone perfectly, but eventually I realized that it can't be like that, we live in a consumerist, capitalist society, everyone takes advantages of others, that's the only way to achieve something. If you don't eat others, others will eat you. For that reason I try to acquire as much power (yeah she said the word), as possible. Why do you think I'm here, I'm farming every possible course and learning everything that I can because I want to have as much power as possible. (She mentions something more about her attacking or trying to overpower people who do wrong to her)
Power duck: I agree that one should counter attack to those who wrong us. Would you do things that could harm others and benefit yourself without them knowing it?
Her: Yes. You see we live in a society in which people play a game, that it's expected that they play, they'll never get to anything. They are people who won't ever realize what is happening not like us, isn't that a perfect oportunity for us to achieve our objectives? There's lots of people like that you know, imagine that your whole life living in a fantasy. If we know the rules of the game why don't we play knowing them?
After this I shutted up and tried to assimilate what just happened. Nobody seemed to suspect anything.
So she seems like a proud value taker with self-aggrandizing thoughts. By the way her and the leader are flirting, and I know for a fact what will happen here.
If it weren't for power university my low power, power unaware self would've definetely fallen in love with this manipulative person.
I could fake that I agree with her value taking approach and keep her as an ally although I don't think this is a good idea, she knows that I'm power aware though, as I hinted that she was really street smart several times.
However I plan to keep her at arms length, observe and learn more.
Feel free to add any thoughts here :)
Actually I have a question:
Do you think I should exit this debate group if I get more info that tells me that she's indeed a dangerous dark triad?
Cheers.
Hi Power Duck,
first off, thank you for sharing!
Small and quick post on my side here: I guarantee you she’s not the first you met or even interacted with. She may just be the first that you noticed, if she is one (which is at odds with her being so frank about it).
One in ten people are dark triads, and the most dangerous are those that have a good mask, ie those that do seem very good and prosocial.
Those you would never suspect, unless you enter into a close relationship.
Hi Power Duck, interesting story!
The way you described it I also assume it is a person who is probably high in machiavellianism and narcissism. I have not often seen a person (especially a woman) express herself so openly and coldly. Especially when she doesn't have a close bond with everyone in the group and can "trust" them.
If your goal is really to meet new people, improve your social skills, and become more articulate and knowledgeable, then I wouldn't leave. I would see it as an opportunity to learn how people with dark triad traits work. Power University has a lot of case studies and excellent theory, but it is also the practice that can teach you valuable things and provide new perspectives.
It is better to get a picture of such people now and see patterns, because that someone "shows" himself so openly is not the norm.
A question from my side: why would you consider leaving the club if you would find more info that she is indeed high in the Dark triad traits?
Cheers
Interesting character and cool story indeed.
+1 to Roberto, I wouldn't even consider leaving the club just because of her.
A note on this:
Quote from Power Duck on July 27, 2023, 6:42 pmshe knows that I'm power aware though, as I hinted that she was really street smart several times.
That may have played a part.
Here she included you in that category indeed:
Quote from Power Duck on July 27, 2023, 6:42 pmHer: Yes. You see we live in a society in which people play a game, that it's expected that they play, they'll never get to anything. They are people who won't ever realize what is happening not like us, isn't that a perfect oportunity for us to achieve our objectives? There's lots of people like that you know, imagine that your whole life living in a fantasy. If we know the rules of the game why don't we play knowing them?
But I think she knew even more when you told her you'd charge her for holding her can.
And when you refuse to hold it after that :).
Well done, by the way!
Also liked your response after her "WTF" face.
That dialogue was also very telling of her personality, by the way.
Quote from Bel on July 27, 2023, 7:20 pmOne in ten people are dark triads, and the most dangerous are those that have a good mask, ie those that do seem very good and prosocial.
Those you would never suspect, unless you enter into a close relationship.
Thanks for the response Bel.
It's good to know that :)
Quote from Roberto on July 27, 2023, 10:48 pmHi Power Duck, interesting story!
The way you described it I also assume it is a person who is probably high in machiavellianism and narcissism. I have not often seen a person (especially a woman) express herself so openly and coldly. Especially when she doesn't have a close bond with everyone in the group and can "trust" them.
If your goal is really to meet new people, improve your social skills, and become more articulate and knowledgeable, then I wouldn't leave. I would see it as an opportunity to learn how people with dark triad traits work. Power University has a lot of case studies and excellent theory, but it is also the practice that can teach you valuable things and provide new perspectives.
It is better to get a picture of such people now and see patterns, because that someone "shows" himself so openly is not the norm.
A question from my side: why would you consider leaving the club if you would find more info that she is indeed high in the Dark triad traits?
Cheers
Hello Roberto,
I thought about leaving because it's the advice that's usually given when you meet a dark triad person due to the damage they can cause if you let them get close enough. I was curious about what would y'all here think about it. And btw yeah I found it really strange that she told us such a thing the same day we meet her, didn't expect her to be so honest about it.
Thanks for the response
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 27, 2023, 11:53 pmInteresting character and cool story indeed.
+1 to Roberto, I wouldn't even consider leaving the club just because of her.
A note on this:
Quote from Power Duck on July 27, 2023, 6:42 pmshe knows that I'm power aware though, as I hinted that she was really street smart several times.
That may have played a part.
Here she included you in that category indeed:
Quote from Power Duck on July 27, 2023, 6:42 pmHer: Yes. You see we live in a society in which people play a game, that it's expected that they play, they'll never get to anything. They are people who won't ever realize what is happening not like us, isn't that a perfect oportunity for us to achieve our objectives? There's lots of people like that you know, imagine that your whole life living in a fantasy. If we know the rules of the game why don't we play knowing them?
But I think she knew even more when you told her you'd charge her for holding her can.
And when you refuse to hold it after that :).
Well done, by the way!
Also liked your response after her "WTF" face.
That dialogue was also very telling of her personality, by the way.
Thanks Lucio, both for the response and for the congratulation :).
Next time I see her I'll try to calm myself down, I was nervous and uneased and this was a problem when defending against her power moves.
It's very likely that I got triggered because this girl gave me the same vibes a crazy girl I used to like gave me. Plus her "charm" is weird, it feels fake.
But I think she knew even more when you told her you'd charge her for holding her can.
And when you refuse to hold it after that :).
Didn't think about that. It's likely that she noticed it.
As we are both more power aware than the average maybe I could "turn" her into an ally although it's really really unlikely. However from a mach standpoint collaboration is better in MO maybe that could convince her, I doubt that it will do much good for me though.
Cheers.
Quote from Power Duck on July 28, 2023, 12:45 amAs we are both more power aware than the average maybe I could "turn" her into an ally although it's really really unlikely. However from a mach standpoint collaboration is better in MO maybe that could convince her, I doubt that it will do much good for me though.
Cheers.
Yeah, you might, if she can add real value.
Watch out though because manipulative personalities, especially if high-power, attractive, or are very good at making it seem there is something in it for you, when there is instead only a loss (or opportunity loss).
Otherwise, nothing wrong with partnering up if you can be better off.
I'd just make sure not to get too close, never to depend on them, and ever to be in a situation where them cheating on you benefits them, but harms you (because they'll probably do it).
Generally speaking though, in my experience, people who brag about being "ruthless" aren't the most effective, (emotionally) strong/independent, or even "that ruthless".
BUT my experience is limited here since these personalities are rarer (so happy to read if someone has had different experiences).
Hello Power Duck,
first great awareness and observation of this character. That’s 80% of the battle: knowing her character and therefore her « baseline behaviour ». So I think you can be happy already to know where you’re stepping in.
The risk is to be afraid of these characters. That’s disempowering to yourself and that’s overestimating them. If they would be that great then they would not need to manipulate and self-aggrandize. So it’s important to not believe their hype. Is really Donald Trump the greatest business man ever? Is there really a witch hunt against him? Most probably not. He’s a very smart and experienced man that’s for sure. He ‘s also one of the best liars I’ve ever seen. That deserves respect yes for the skills and his curriculum. But if one values character over achievement then he’s just a loser. So I think it’s important to take enough distance with what they say about themselves or anything that is in their favour not to fall in their reality (where they win and others lose).
I would stay in the club if you like it. With these characters I would make them believe that I like them. Being superficial but listening to them and congratulate them when they do something well I do it in a social situations. Hell they’re people in the end. To me the trick is emotional management. Is not to feel anything/too strong emotions when we’re with them. Yes if a manipulator makes a good joke I might laugh. But I won’t let my emotions open up. I won’t let them sink a « love hook » in my heart if that makes sense. I don’t allow attachment in other words. I deal with them like I would with a service employee at a newsstand: polite, warmish but superficial. I learned many things from manipulators. It’s good not to paint them as the devil as one might miss learning opportunities.
However I would keep emotional distance always.
The trick is as you said to observe a lot to figure out how they react to what. Also not one-up them as they will take revenge. Also not letting them one-up you and rather go for one-across than one-up to avoid escalation.
I agree with Lucio: this one does not seem too dangerous as she’s laying it all out. So she already told you what you need to know. The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem.
It’s important to remember that these kind of individuals have low self-esteem. So they take every opportunity to improve it. And since they’re not able to do it by themselves they « take » yours  to improve them.
They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.
I would also avoid competing with them as in their mind you might become an enemy. Whatever little the competition is.
So it’s a little bit like interacting with a 5 years old. You tell them how « high you jump! » you’re interested in their sand castles you have fun blowing soap bubbles together but you don’t tell them about your deep feelings or problems.
It’s all about them and you’re ok with it. You know they’re not able to care about you and you are not angry because you empathize with their lack of empathy.
She might be the « burned by manipulator turned into a manipulator type ». She might. Her being so open about manipulation induces me to this hypothesis. If she was the highly sociopathic type she would hide it.
That’s why it’s quite important to differentiate between understanding and making excuses for them. Understanding being that one makes causal links between her life experience and character or between her intentions and behavior. Whereas making excuses lessens responsibility for their actions.
In this case even if she was (hypothetically) a good person who got burned by a manipulator she’s still responsible for her behaviour +/- improving it.
