Former Community – We Moved

🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.

ForumPublic Forum: Social LifeFirst experience with a Dark tria …

Please or Register to create posts and topics.

First experience with a Dark triad.

#11 · July 28, 2023, 4:57 pm

Quote from B on July 28, 2023, 4:57 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 28, 2023, 11:19 am
Generally speaking though, in my experience, people who brag about being "ruthless" aren't the most effective, (emotionally) strong/independent, or even "that ruthless".
BUT my experience is limited here since these personalities are rarer (so happy to read if someone has had different experiences).
Yes, agreed, the most dangerous personalities at all, are those that are very good at faking love, emotions, empathy.
Those that never speak about "power", or "getting", but only speak about "loving", "wanting to give", and even sometimes give you something - even substantial - to keep you hooked.
Those you would never ever think or even want to consider they may be dark triads. Because you may be blood-tied to one of them.
Those are the most most dangerous at all.
What they do is fake having your personal interests at heart, and constantly manipulate you and everyone around them to take as much as possible.
And the key is realizing that what one dark triad may want to take is not necessarily what another wants to take.
Someone may be after money, but someone else may be after just keeping you hooked. There are infinite variances between them, and they do not seem all similar.
All of them, however, share not having a definite personality. They are twisters, chameleons, representing to different people what each of them seeks in a friend, spouse, etc... And they do not care. They could leave you after 30 years of marriage in a heartbeat, if it serves them.
Because: you emotionally bond with them, but they are incapable of any emotional bond.
Imagine: while they speak with you, they have a thought process similar to Dexter, or to the protagonist of Death Note....
And the worst thing - apart from the physical effects of the abuse, which increase more and more, the more time goes on without one seeing what is going on - is that your mind becomes twisted, brainwashed, in the process. You adopt thinking patterns that are not normal, but meant to serve the manipulator. This is because their manipulating techniques, by definition, are outside of your conscious awareness.
Unless of course you study PU.
Still, even after studying PU, realizing a close person was a manipulator is like coming out of a cult.
Maybe the topic for another thread tough.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 28, 2023, 11:19 am
Generally speaking though, in my experience, people who brag about being "ruthless" aren't the most effective, (emotionally) strong/independent, or even "that ruthless".
BUT my experience is limited here since these personalities are rarer (so happy to read if someone has had different experiences).

Yes, agreed, the most dangerous personalities at all, are those that are very good at faking love, emotions, empathy.

Those that never speak about "power", or "getting", but only speak about "loving", "wanting to give", and even sometimes give you something - even substantial - to keep you hooked.

Those you would never ever think or even want to consider they may be dark triads. Because you may be blood-tied to one of them.

Those are the most most dangerous at all.

What they do is fake having your personal interests at heart, and constantly manipulate you and everyone around them to take as much as possible.

And the key is realizing that what one dark triad may want to take is not necessarily what another wants to take.

Someone may be after money, but someone else may be after just keeping you hooked. There are infinite variances between them, and they do not seem all similar.

All of them, however, share not having a definite personality. They are twisters, chameleons, representing to different people what each of them seeks in a friend, spouse, etc... And they do not care. They could leave you after 30 years of marriage in a heartbeat, if it serves them.

Because: you emotionally bond with them, but they are incapable of any emotional bond.

Imagine: while they speak with you, they have a thought process similar to Dexter, or to the protagonist of Death Note....

And the worst thing - apart from the physical effects of the abuse, which increase more and more, the more time goes on without one seeing what is going on - is that your mind becomes twisted, brainwashed, in the process. You adopt thinking patterns that are not normal, but meant to serve the manipulator. This is because their manipulating techniques, by definition, are outside of your conscious awareness.

Unless of course you study PU.

Still, even after studying PU, realizing a close person was a manipulator is like coming out of a cult.

Maybe the topic for another thread tough.

Emily and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#12 · July 28, 2023, 5:04 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 28, 2023, 11:19 am
Quote from Power Duck on July 28, 2023, 12:45 am
As we are both more power aware than the average maybe I could "turn" her into an ally although it's really really unlikely. However from a mach standpoint collaboration is better in MO maybe that could convince her, I doubt that it will do much good for me though.
Cheers.
Yeah, you might, if she can add real value.
Watch out though because manipulative personalities, especially if high-power, attractive, or are very good at making it seem there is something in it for you, when there is instead only a loss (or opportunity loss).
Otherwise, nothing wrong with partnering up if you can be better off.
I'd just make sure not to get too close, never to depend on them, and ever to be in a situation where them cheating on you benefits them, but harms you (because they'll probably do it).
Generally speaking though, in my experience, people who brag about being "ruthless" aren't the most effective, (emotionally) strong/independent, or even "that ruthless".
BUT my experience is limited here since these personalities are rarer (so happy to read if someone has had different experiences).

Thanks Lucio, noted. I'll see if I can learn something from her and then decide how I will approach this situation. Posing as an ally and asking her about power could serve to "gaze more at the abyss", and understand better this type of personalities.

Cheers.

#13 · July 28, 2023, 5:20 pm

Quote from Power Duck on July 28, 2023, 5:20 pm
Quote from John Freeman on July 28, 2023, 12:09 pm
Hello Power Duck,
first great awareness and observation of this character. That’s 80% of the battle: knowing her character and therefore her « baseline behaviour ». So I think you can be happy already to know where you’re stepping in.
The risk is to be afraid of these characters. That’s disempowering to yourself and that’s overestimating them. If they would be that great then they would not need to manipulate and self-aggrandize. So it’s important to not believe their hype. Is really Donald Trump the greatest business man ever? Is there really a witch hunt against him? Most probably not. He’s a very smart and experienced man that’s for sure. He ‘s also one of the best liars I’ve ever seen. That deserves respect yes for the skills and his curriculum. But if one values character over achievement then he’s just a loser. So I think it’s important to take enough distance with what they say about themselves or anything that is in their favour not to fall in their reality (where they win and others lose).
I would stay in the club if you like it. With these characters I would make them believe that I like them. Being superficial but listening to them and congratulate them when they do something well I do it in a social situations. Hell they’re people in the end. To me the trick is emotional management. Is not to feel anything/too strong emotions when we’re with them. Yes if a manipulator makes a good joke I might laugh. But I won’t let my emotions open up. I won’t let them sink a « love hook » in my heart if that makes sense. I don’t allow attachment in other words. I deal with them like I would with a service employee at a newsstand: polite, warmish but superficial. I learned many things from manipulators. It’s good not to paint them as the devil as one might miss learning opportunities.
However I would keep emotional distance always.
The trick is as you said to observe a lot to figure out how they react to what. Also not one-up them as they will take revenge. Also not letting them one-up you and rather go for one-across than one-up to avoid escalation.
I agree with Lucio: this one does not seem too dangerous as she’s laying it all out. So she already told you what you need to know. The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem.
It’s important to remember that these kind of individuals have low self-esteem. So they take every opportunity to improve it. And since they’re not able to do it by themselves they « take » yours to improve them.
They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.
I would also avoid competing with them as in their mind you might become an enemy. Whatever little the competition is.
So it’s a little bit like interacting with a 5 years old. You tell them how « high you jump! » you’re interested in their sand castles you have fun blowing soap bubbles together but you don’t tell them about your deep feelings or problems.
It’s all about them and you’re ok with it. You know they’re not able to care about you and you are not angry because you empathize with their lack of empathy.
She might be the « burned by manipulator turned into a manipulator type ». She might. Her being so open about manipulation induces me to this hypothesis. If she was the highly sociopathic type she would hide it.
That’s why it’s quite important to differentiate between understanding and making excuses for them. Understanding being that one makes causal links between her life experience and character or between her intentions and behavior. Whereas making excuses lessens responsibility for their actions.
In this case even if she was (hypothetically) a good person who got burned by a manipulator she’s still responsible for her behaviour +/- improving it.
Thanks for the response John.
Yeah I agree about me overreacting and getting scared it's not good, seems like I got an amygdala hijack.
I'll apply the idea of treating her as if she were a child, only superficial conversations, not getting emotionally invested, not trusting her.
They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.
Yeah, she likes to say that she learns from her mistakes, I really doubt it. Noted.
I agree with Lucio: this one does not seem too dangerous as she’s laying it all out. So she already told you what you need to know. The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem.
Yeah, I get what you say. Not understanding how evil people can be underneath their mask often can make you think this. I don't think that I could fall into this trap, however it would be foolish to discard the possibility as I used to fall into this lots of times in the past. Noted.
Cheers.

P.S:
Your response has lots of useful tips, I'll make sure to put it in my journal.

Quote from John Freeman on July 28, 2023, 12:09 pm
Hello Power Duck,
first great awareness and observation of this character. That’s 80% of the battle: knowing her character and therefore her « baseline behaviour ». So I think you can be happy already to know where you’re stepping in.
The risk is to be afraid of these characters. That’s disempowering to yourself and that’s overestimating them. If they would be that great then they would not need to manipulate and self-aggrandize. So it’s important to not believe their hype. Is really Donald Trump the greatest business man ever? Is there really a witch hunt against him? Most probably not. He’s a very smart and experienced man that’s for sure. He ‘s also one of the best liars I’ve ever seen. That deserves respect yes for the skills and his curriculum. But if one values character over achievement then he’s just a loser. So I think it’s important to take enough distance with what they say about themselves or anything that is in their favour not to fall in their reality (where they win and others lose).
I would stay in the club if you like it. With these characters I would make them believe that I like them. Being superficial but listening to them and congratulate them when they do something well I do it in a social situations. Hell they’re people in the end. To me the trick is emotional management. Is not to feel anything/too strong emotions when we’re with them. Yes if a manipulator makes a good joke I might laugh. But I won’t let my emotions open up. I won’t let them sink a « love hook » in my heart if that makes sense. I don’t allow attachment in other words. I deal with them like I would with a service employee at a newsstand: polite, warmish but superficial. I learned many things from manipulators. It’s good not to paint them as the devil as one might miss learning opportunities.
However I would keep emotional distance always.
The trick is as you said to observe a lot to figure out how they react to what. Also not one-up them as they will take revenge. Also not letting them one-up you and rather go for one-across than one-up to avoid escalation.
I agree with Lucio: this one does not seem too dangerous as she’s laying it all out. So she already told you what you need to know. The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem.
It’s important to remember that these kind of individuals have low self-esteem. So they take every opportunity to improve it. And since they’re not able to do it by themselves they « take » yours to improve them.
They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.
I would also avoid competing with them as in their mind you might become an enemy. Whatever little the competition is.
So it’s a little bit like interacting with a 5 years old. You tell them how « high you jump! » you’re interested in their sand castles you have fun blowing soap bubbles together but you don’t tell them about your deep feelings or problems.
It’s all about them and you’re ok with it. You know they’re not able to care about you and you are not angry because you empathize with their lack of empathy.
She might be the « burned by manipulator turned into a manipulator type ». She might. Her being so open about manipulation induces me to this hypothesis. If she was the highly sociopathic type she would hide it.
That’s why it’s quite important to differentiate between understanding and making excuses for them. Understanding being that one makes causal links between her life experience and character or between her intentions and behavior. Whereas making excuses lessens responsibility for their actions.
In this case even if she was (hypothetically) a good person who got burned by a manipulator she’s still responsible for her behaviour +/- improving it.

Thanks for the response John.

Yeah I agree about me overreacting and getting scared it's not good, seems like I got an amygdala hijack.

I'll apply the idea of treating her as if she were a child, only superficial conversations, not getting emotionally invested, not trusting her.

They most likely don’t have a learner mindset so I would avoid constructive criticism. This will most likely backlash as it will be interpreted as an attack.

Yeah, she likes to say that she learns from her mistakes, I really doubt it. Noted.

I agree with Lucio: this one does not seem too dangerous as she’s laying it all out. So she already told you what you need to know. The thing is at some point you will probably think: « in the end she seems nice maybe I was wrong ». I would be very careful with this kind of thoughts. In my experience that’s the moment when we allow ourselves to open up and then they strike and attack our self-esteem.

Yeah, I get what you say. Not understanding how evil people can be underneath their mask often can make you think this. I don't think that I could fall into this trap, however it would be foolish to discard the possibility as I used to fall into this lots of times in the past. Noted.

Cheers.

P.S:

Your response has lots of useful tips, I'll make sure to put it in my journal.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

#14 · July 28, 2023, 5:50 pm

Hello Power Duck,

thanks for your answer. I'm glad it's helpful. A few comments:

I'll apply the idea of treating her as if she were a child, only superficial conversations, not getting emotionally invested, not trusting her.

To be more clear: what I mean is that she's very likely immature. I mean to take it into account and not expect her to behave like a grown-up. That's more accurate to what I meant. Otherwise, there is the risk in "treating her like a child" to come across as condescending. Which would infuriate her. What I meant is to remember that probably she does not have the full emotional nor psychological maturity of an adult. That's to have lower expectation in those terms towards her.

I used to fall into this lots of times in the past.

I did as well (sweating emoji).

Emily and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#15 · August 7, 2023, 12:16 am

Great example, Power Duck! I feel the same way a lot of times and this seems to be an extreme case. I used to be more frazzled even with people less disturbing (probably I sometimes still do). I also agree that we need to challenge ourselves by dealing with this kind of situation instead of avoiding it.

John's advices sound really reasonable - lots of useful insights and suggestions there. I'd like to practice engaging in a light-hearted way with minimal investment. To think it the other way, our own emotions, energy and time are valuable - so don't let them take it so easily. This is eagle mindset that protects our self-identity and self-esteem.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#16 · September 5, 2023, 12:47 pm

Regarding this post. Will keep posting about this girl's characters in here.

I forgot to add an interesting situation I had with her via discord:

I'm responsible for preparing a "guide" for club members to encourage new college students to join the club.

I had already prepared some things and asked this girl what she thought about it. Overall what I wrote: "the member of the club doesn't have to convince the student to join the club he has to show the amazing opportunities it brings to him" among other things. The intention behind it is that the member doesn't feel pressured to win the students over.

Interestingly she told me the following:

"I would have the members first gain the students trust, and, after some days of gaining their trust casually tell them about this club that helped them a lot and offered lots of cool things, but without implying that they're part of the administration of the club. You have to play with people sometimes you know?"

The advice wasn't bad at all, its more likely to work although as I mention I feel it could be manipulative, however the "playing with people part" specially in the tone she said it had a value taking connotation. Although the worst part is "gaining their trust", she frames it as gaining their trust only to them persuade them into joining the club, at least that's how I percieve it.

I think that by now it's pretty clear that she is a proud value taker. I'll keep observing her, her behaviour is good forum material that's for sure.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#17 · September 5, 2023, 12:58 pm

Very interesting.

Reminds me of my former boss telling me that to get a client you have to "do good work for at least a while initially".

I remember thinking: "What? You always need to do good work!".

Another time I started doing translations for a company and after some days the boss of the company called me and said:

"Now don't stop doing the work with such accuracy and start cutting corners!"

The thing is that these sentences reveal something about the person saying them.

What they tell you to do or not do is how they see the world and do things.

And a person who says you have to "gain people's trust" is inherently saying that, for her, gaining someone's trust is a manipulative endeavor.

Nothing to really trust there.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#18 · September 5, 2023, 1:14 pm

Thanks for sharing that anecdote Bel.

And a person who says you have to "gain people's trust" is inherently saying that, for her, gaining someone's trust is a manipulative endeavor.

I agree. I had a vague idea about that in my mind but couldn't put it into words, thanks.

John Freeman, B and Roberto have reacted to this post.

#19 · September 5, 2023, 2:44 pm

I agree.

For normal people gaining someone’s trust is proving yourself to be of value to them. It is something one earns through character and “good deeds”. It says: “the good behaviour you see from me is the behaviour you’ll get in the future because that’s who I am”.

For a manipulative person it’s the gateway to taking: “now that you trust me I can finally take”.

Twisted but I think it’s actually accurate.

Roberto and Power Duck have reacted to this post.