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Follow along experiment: getting out of the friendzone

#1 · February 21, 2022, 4:49 pm

Quote from Parsifal on February 21, 2022, 4:49 pm
Hey guys,
nice topic title here right? I'll try to be as brief as possible but this is probably gonna be a bit of a long post because I'd like to give as many details as possible, so buckle up.
First things first
Some me background first: I'm a pretty confident guy, pretty successful in business (have my own online ventures), I have a lot of interests from photography to martial arts, I regularly train as a gymnast, I'm a lot into self-help and personal growth, and I'm overall pretty happy with my life. As we all do, I've my insecurities coming from the way my parents raised me, but I've always seen those as opportunities to improve and get better.
In the last few months though, without getting into too many details, quite some things happened that crushed my spirit a decent bit in particular my dad being very old and getting really sick and my (way) older brother leaning on me both financially and emotionally because he was never given the tools to do so himself. Even setting boundaries in that kind of situation put me in a pretty delicate mind place.
My Relationship life
So while I've always put work and personal improvement first, I've always tended to neglect my relationships a bit. I've had a few longish relationships in the last few years, but between an open relationship with an American girlfriend that I ended up breaking up due to inability to be with each other due to covid and some FWB here and there, I've never put that much focus into that aspect of my life up until now.
Let's get to the point
Without further ado, let me get to the central point of why I am writing this topic.
I never had any real trouble dating in my adult life, I'm specifying this as I was a damn mess in my teenage years, but hey, I guess that's normal right?
So what happened here: I matched on a dating app with this girl like a year ago during my open relationship situation, while that was not what she was looking for at the time, we kept in touch through Instagram every now and then.
Since I was going through the aforementioned shit, I actually felt the need (I know, I know.) to hang out with someone, and I chose this girl since she seemed pretty cool.
That just started as us going out mostly as friends of sorts, and just speaking about stuff here and there.
The more this went on, the more my attraction (and well damn, attachment) towards her grew. In dating, I'm usually pretty to the point like pretty direct and physical, but this time around I said "let's try being a nice guy".
And as you all can probably imagine, that didn't end well lmao.
I'll sum this as a step by step thing as I don't want to be super-long:
- We start hanging out mostly in a friendly way for a few weeks
- My interest grows, but even if that happens I basically restrain myself from making any kind of move
- We start speaking a lot about all kinds of shit, even very personal stuff like family situations and one of her exes being a narcissistic prick who made her feel special unique and and a "the center of the universe" (more on this later)
- She meets again with said prick for a few times and is crushed again.
- We spend New Years eve together at her place where she introduces me to her family and we finally kiss there
- We do not really speak about what happened until we go out for a movie where we kiss again
- The morning after that she messages me basically friend-zoning me saying that she's still in love with that ex.
And then the part I'm not-so-proud of: I start chasing her like a goddamn dog.
And by chasing I mean doing stuff like always being the first to contact her and ask her out, being there, proposing things, doing activities like hikes, photo sessions, drinks, sort of love talks, dinner with friends, you know the drill.
The problem is, I kept wanting more, and while I made that pretty explicit, she kept sending mixed signals like saying she's confused, but engaging in physical contact, teasing me about her secret tattoos and piercing, ecc, ecc.
I was in a really needy moment of my life, and that messed things up. I behaved in a way that I do not remember doing since I was 18.
Finding back some of that decisiveness I usually have and wanting for things to move in one direction or another, I invited her to my place to have dinner and hang out, that would not have been the first time, as we actually already came over once for lunch but at the very beginning.
She kept declining. I told her that I could not keep going like that, and I didn't want to see her social stuff as it was just plain painful, told her politely I'd block her on socials for a bit to cool it off.
And this is basically where I stand now, and I'm about around 10 days of zero contact coming from like full everyday chatty chat.
A bit of self-analysis
The cooling-off part was much needed on my side as it helped me analyze things in a detached way, something I was not able to do while I was so hanged up with the thing itself.
A few things I realized:
A) She's probably an insecure person who enjoyed my prince-like attention and putting her on a pedestal and was using me to feel somehow better from the abusive relationship she had and she's probably truly not emotionally available.
B) I messed up big time. Not having a clear intention at the beginning, spending the first few weeks acting like a friend, and afterward not breaking contact fully when she said the F word. This by contrast probably led her to get back to her ex who made her feel more like a woman than I did.
C) I should probably just move on, as again, it seems she's currently emotionally unavailable.
Let's sum it up
That said tho, being dating a numbers game, I've been going out with a few other girls in the meantime, but I still can't stop thinking about her.
That might be an ego thing on my side for being rejected, I'm not sure. But I want to turn things around both because I really like the gurl, and also because I feel like this could actually be a good learning experience both on myself and how relationship interactions work.
I've a few ideas on how I could proceed from here, but I'd love to hear from the community and maybe even Lucio himself, to build up a cool topic that can probably help others here!
Cheers!

Hey guys,

nice topic title here right? I'll try to be as brief as possible but this is probably gonna be a bit of a long post because I'd like to give as many details as possible, so buckle up.

First things first

Some me background first: I'm a pretty confident guy, pretty successful in business (have my own online ventures), I have a lot of interests from photography to martial arts, I regularly train as a gymnast, I'm a lot into self-help and personal growth, and I'm overall pretty happy with my life. As we all do, I've my insecurities coming from the way my parents raised me, but I've always seen those as opportunities to improve and get better.

In the last few months though, without getting into too many details, quite some things happened that crushed my spirit a decent bit in particular my dad being very old and getting really sick and my (way) older brother leaning on me both financially and emotionally because he was never given the tools to do so himself. Even setting boundaries in that kind of situation put me in a pretty delicate mind place.

My Relationship life

So while I've always put work and personal improvement first, I've always tended to neglect my relationships a bit. I've had a few longish relationships in the last few years, but between an open relationship with an American girlfriend that I ended up breaking up due to inability to be with each other due to covid and some FWB here and there, I've never put that much focus into that aspect of my life up until now.

Let's get to the point

Without further ado, let me get to the central point of why I am writing this topic.

I never had any real trouble dating in my adult life, I'm specifying this as I was a damn mess in my teenage years, but hey, I guess that's normal right?

So what happened here: I matched on a dating app with this girl like a year ago during my open relationship situation, while that was not what she was looking for at the time, we kept in touch through Instagram every now and then.

Since I was going through the aforementioned shit, I actually felt the need (I know, I know.) to hang out with someone, and I chose this girl since she seemed pretty cool.

That just started as us going out mostly as friends of sorts, and just speaking about stuff here and there.

The more this went on, the more my attraction (and well damn, attachment) towards her grew. In dating, I'm usually pretty to the point like pretty direct and physical, but this time around I said "let's try being a nice guy".

And as you all can probably imagine, that didn't end well lmao.

I'll sum this as a step by step thing as I don't want to be super-long:

- We start hanging out mostly in a friendly way for a few weeks
- My interest grows, but even if that happens I basically restrain myself from making any kind of move
- We start speaking a lot about all kinds of shit, even very personal stuff like family situations and one of her exes being a narcissistic prick who made her feel special unique and and a "the center of the universe" (more on this later)
- She meets again with said prick for a few times and is crushed again.
- We spend New Years eve together at her place where she introduces me to her family and we finally kiss there
- We do not really speak about what happened until we go out for a movie where we kiss again
- The morning after that she messages me basically friend-zoning me saying that she's still in love with that ex.

And then the part I'm not-so-proud of: I start chasing her like a goddamn dog.

And by chasing I mean doing stuff like always being the first to contact her and ask her out, being there, proposing things, doing activities like hikes, photo sessions, drinks, sort of love talks, dinner with friends, you know the drill.

The problem is, I kept wanting more, and while I made that pretty explicit, she kept sending mixed signals like saying she's confused, but engaging in physical contact, teasing me about her secret tattoos and piercing, ecc, ecc.

I was in a really needy moment of my life, and that messed things up. I behaved in a way that I do not remember doing since I was 18.

Finding back some of that decisiveness I usually have and wanting for things to move in one direction or another, I invited her to my place to have dinner and hang out, that would not have been the first time, as we actually already came over once for lunch but at the very beginning.

She kept declining. I told her that I could not keep going like that, and I didn't want to see her social stuff as it was just plain painful, told her politely I'd block her on socials for a bit to cool it off.

And this is basically where I stand now, and I'm about around 10 days of zero contact coming from like full everyday chatty chat.

A bit of self-analysis

The cooling-off part was much needed on my side as it helped me analyze things in a detached way, something I was not able to do while I was so hanged up with the thing itself.

A few things I realized:

A) She's probably an insecure person who enjoyed my prince-like attention and putting her on a pedestal and was using me to feel somehow better from the abusive relationship she had and she's probably truly not emotionally available.
B) I messed up big time. Not having a clear intention at the beginning, spending the first few weeks acting like a friend, and afterward not breaking contact fully when she said the F word. This by contrast probably led her to get back to her ex who made her feel more like a woman than I did.
C) I should probably just move on, as again, it seems she's currently emotionally unavailable.

Let's sum it up

That said tho, being dating a numbers game, I've been going out with a few other girls in the meantime, but I still can't stop thinking about her.

That might be an ego thing on my side for being rejected, I'm not sure. But I want to turn things around both because I really like the gurl, and also because I feel like this could actually be a good learning experience both on myself and how relationship interactions work.

I've a few ideas on how I could proceed from here, but I'd love to hear from the community and maybe even Lucio himself, to build up a cool topic that can probably help others here!

Cheers!

Lucio Buffalmano, Kavalier and Alex have reacted to this post.

#2 · February 21, 2022, 6:13 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 21, 2022, 6:13 pm
Excellent analysis and self-analysis!
Overall: great
Overall, you seem to be in a great spot in life.
And in a great spot to (eventually) achieve any goal you might want to have from dating/relationships.
Overall awareness: great
Even though experience-wise you say you haven't had much, you have much of the awareness that comes from the experience -and that some guys never even develop after a lot of experience-.
And awareness without the experience is almost as good as the experience itself, and certainly better than experience without awareness.
This specific case: you're low power and you'd start anything as low power
You're very low power right now and, from your message, you know that.
Even if you get together, you'd still start the relationship as low power.
And, of course, power heavily influences attraction.
That can change and will most likely change in the future if you get together, but it might take some time.
And it might take some conscious effort to rebalance power dynamics.
This specific case: toxic "dominance / pain" dynamics?
It seems like she's hurt you.
And with the teasing, that she's done it on purpose.
It's possible that your main drive is not learning or "really like this girl".
It's possible you're driven by the will to power and revenge, to "get back at her" and "show her".
Totally understandable, and totally OK, too -in some ways, it's very healthy-.
You probably know the wonderful lyrics in the song "Bella stronza", when he yells:
https://youtu.be/Me0AMbPn8Ic?t=216
Mi verrebbe di strapparti
Quei vestiti da puttana
E tenerti a gambe aperte
Finché viene domattina
That is one of my favorite passages of any song, actually.
Raw power dynamics.
Extreme, wild, and fascinating.
In English:
(redacted)
That's the feeling and drive that mixes:
Will to power
Will to sexual conquest
Will to sexual dominance
Will to revenge
It's not a great dynamic in some ways, but within boundaries that exclude criminal assaults and as long as you're aware, it's OK.
And it can lead to learning and growth, yes.
But not in the long-run.
In the long run the learning and experience most certainly succumb to the costs.
The "revenge" and "mutual hurting" is sometimes the fuel of toxic relationships where partners make themselves miserable just to "win the war" and "get back at their partner".
And that's where that same song shows the self-awareness and "enlightenment stage" of the artist.
Now with his voice gradually getting calmer and mellow:
Ma di questo nostro amore
Così tenero e pulito
Non mi resterebbe altro che
Un lunghissimo minuto di violenza
E allora ti saluto, bella stronza
In English:
But of this love or ours
So kind and "clean"
Nothing would remain to me
Than an endless minute of violence
So then, I say "goodbye", beautiful bitch
You're in a different stage because you haven't been sexual yet and don't have sexual access to her.
And that can make your thirst for sexual conquest even stronger.
And moving on can be harder since you can't say "I've had her".
But the advice is still solid:
Going forward: the general advice is "drop it and move on"
I'll tell you the advice you'd get from many guys here -and from many guys who've been into dating skills for a while-:
Drop her and move on.
And it's certainly solid advice.
Yet, I'm a bit of an outlier here.
I'm personally motivated in pursuing the hardest path and "proving the general advice wrong" by being the exception.
If you were most people, I'd also say "it's simply better for you to move on".
If you were a friend, I'd also say "move on" because I know it'd spare you some pain and get you quicker into a healthier relationship.
Yet, if I were to give advice to myself, especially myself who wants to learn and prove himself, I know I'd do differently.
My self-talk would be:
It's toxic, it's what makes it perversely attractive, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be an emotional mess, you're fighting against the odds... And that's why you know you can't back down.
It's like Ulysses resisting the calls of the demonic sirens.
He does what's harder to do, to survive.
But fuck it, I'd run towards the sirens and seek to slay them.
However, you must be conscious that:
It's not optimal or most effective dating: most effective dating is to restart anew, date many, and pick the best
It's likely going to fail: odds are more "no" than yes"
It's likely going to hurt more, be an emotional mess, and scars can be costly: emotional messes can take time to heal, and some might leave some scars -what people refer to as "baggage"-.
Scars can lead to consequences: Not necessarily an issue. Scars and baggages are how you grow, but not everyone can carry those baggages and scars in a positive way. Those scars even lead some men to become misogynists, lose faith in win-win, become overly cynic, blame themselves and lose self-esteem, or hate the world (same for women)
It's a pyrrhic victory. Even if you "win", you'd get together with a woman who is no better than any other woman, probably "less" so as well: read below
Your vision of her is clouded: you seldom see people for who they truly are when you're very emotionally enmeshed. And now you're still close to the peak.
You probably have a rosier view of her right now.
Quick, possible wake-up call: is she high-quality?
Take this as an outsider's opinion.
It can potentially help you see more clearly.
The goal is not to criticize her, but to show you a potentially different viewpoint.
It's rare for women not to string along men even they know they're falling for them.
So albeit warning you and distancing herself would have been a damn great sign, as crazy as that might sound, I wouldn't necessarily hold it against her that she strung you along.
But I didn't like her games/teasing you of her tattoos and piercing.
If she's doing that when she knows you're falling for her, that's equivalent of wanting to have as much power on you as possible -already not good-.
And, even worse, she may have been that power to disempower you and devalue you.
Nasty games at their worst.
And the "secret tattoos and piercings" are also small red flags in themselves.
Going forward: how to turn it around?
Now I'd like to hear what you've got in mind.

Excellent analysis and self-analysis!

Overall: great

Overall, you seem to be in a great spot in life.

And in a great spot to (eventually) achieve any goal you might want to have from dating/relationships.

Overall awareness: great

Even though experience-wise you say you haven't had much, you have much of the awareness that comes from the experience -and that some guys never even develop after a lot of experience-.

And awareness without the experience is almost as good as the experience itself, and certainly better than experience without awareness.

This specific case: you're low power and you'd start anything as low power

You're very low power right now and, from your message, you know that.

Even if you get together, you'd still start the relationship as low power.

And, of course, power heavily influences attraction.

That can change and will most likely change in the future if you get together, but it might take some time.
And it might take some conscious effort to rebalance power dynamics.

This specific case: toxic "dominance / pain" dynamics?

It seems like she's hurt you.

And with the teasing, that she's done it on purpose.

It's possible that your main drive is not learning or "really like this girl".
It's possible you're driven by the will to power and revenge, to "get back at her" and "show her".

Totally understandable, and totally OK, too -in some ways, it's very healthy-.

You probably know the wonderful lyrics in the song "Bella stronza", when he yells:

Mi verrebbe di strapparti
Quei vestiti da puttana
E tenerti a gambe aperte
Finché viene domattina

That is one of my favorite passages of any song, actually.

Raw power dynamics.
Extreme, wild, and fascinating.

In English:

(redacted)

That's the feeling and drive that mixes:

Will to power
Will to sexual conquest
Will to sexual dominance
Will to revenge

It's not a great dynamic in some ways, but within boundaries that exclude criminal assaults and as long as you're aware, it's OK.
And it can lead to learning and growth, yes.

But not in the long-run.
In the long run the learning and experience most certainly succumb to the costs.
The "revenge" and "mutual hurting" is sometimes the fuel of toxic relationships where partners make themselves miserable just to "win the war" and "get back at their partner".

And that's where that same song shows the self-awareness and "enlightenment stage" of the artist.

Now with his voice gradually getting calmer and mellow:

Ma di questo nostro amore
Così tenero e pulito
Non mi resterebbe altro che
Un lunghissimo minuto di violenza
E allora ti saluto, bella stronza

In English:

But of this love or ours
So kind and "clean"
Nothing would remain to me
Than an endless minute of violence
So then, I say "goodbye", beautiful bitch

You're in a different stage because you haven't been sexual yet and don't have sexual access to her.

And that can make your thirst for sexual conquest even stronger.
And moving on can be harder since you can't say "I've had her".

But the advice is still solid:

Going forward: the general advice is "drop it and move on"

I'll tell you the advice you'd get from many guys here -and from many guys who've been into dating skills for a while-:

Drop her and move on.

And it's certainly solid advice.

Yet, I'm a bit of an outlier here.
I'm personally motivated in pursuing the hardest path and "proving the general advice wrong" by being the exception.

If you were most people, I'd also say "it's simply better for you to move on".
If you were a friend, I'd also say "move on" because I know it'd spare you some pain and get you quicker into a healthier relationship.

Yet, if I were to give advice to myself, especially myself who wants to learn and prove himself, I know I'd do differently.
My self-talk would be:

It's toxic, it's what makes it perversely attractive, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be an emotional mess, you're fighting against the odds... And that's why you know you can't back down.

It's like Ulysses resisting the calls of the demonic sirens.

He does what's harder to do, to survive.

But fuck it, I'd run towards the sirens and seek to slay them.

However, you must be conscious that:

It's not optimal or most effective dating: most effective dating is to restart anew, date many, and pick the best
It's likely going to fail: odds are more "no" than yes"
It's likely going to hurt more, be an emotional mess, and scars can be costly: emotional messes can take time to heal, and some might leave some scars -what people refer to as "baggage"-.
1. Scars can lead to consequences: Not necessarily an issue. Scars and baggages are how you grow, but not everyone can carry those baggages and scars in a positive way. Those scars even lead some men to become misogynists, lose faith in win-win, become overly cynic, blame themselves and lose self-esteem, or hate the world (same for women)
It's a pyrrhic victory. Even if you "win", you'd get together with a woman who is no better than any other woman, probably "less" so as well: read below
Your vision of her is clouded: you seldom see people for who they truly are when you're very emotionally enmeshed. And now you're still close to the peak.
You probably have a rosier view of her right now.

Quick, possible wake-up call: is she high-quality?

Take this as an outsider's opinion.

It can potentially help you see more clearly.

The goal is not to criticize her, but to show you a potentially different viewpoint.

It's rare for women not to string along men even they know they're falling for them.
So albeit warning you and distancing herself would have been a damn great sign, as crazy as that might sound, I wouldn't necessarily hold it against her that she strung you along.

But I didn't like her games/teasing you of her tattoos and piercing.

If she's doing that when she knows you're falling for her, that's equivalent of wanting to have as much power on you as possible -already not good-.
And, even worse, she may have been that power to disempower you and devalue you.

Nasty games at their worst.

And the "secret tattoos and piercings" are also small red flags in themselves.

Going forward: how to turn it around?

Now I'd like to hear what you've got in mind.

Kavalier, Alex and Parsifal have reacted to this post.

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#3 · February 21, 2022, 7:18 pm

Quote from Parsifal on February 21, 2022, 7:18 pm
First of all Lucio, thanks for the amazing answer. I wish you could see the grin on my face.
It's toxic, it's what makes it perversely attractive, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be an emotional mess, you're fighting against the odds... And that's why you know you can't back down.
It's incredible how you were able to sum up how I feel in a single sentence.
Honestly, as you might be able to tell I've never been one to back down from things, no matter what, no matter how painful, no matter how scary, no matter how messy it would get, that's my general rule of thumb in life.
To speak more about my awareness of the situation, it's pretty clear to me this is not easy or ideal in any way.
As you stated she's a bit of a damaged person, and for as much as some of the things she did may or may have not been fully intentional, the result and the power dynamics are not changing at all, and as you are saying that might be my overall positive view of people thinking that's not something you do intentionally.
Anyhow.
There are many red flags and it will hurt, but at a certain point in life, I started seeing my scars more like trophies of sorts, lessons I learned, and things that helped me move forward in ways that would have not been possible if not through enduring that kind of a pain to build a stronger mind.
On my eyes, all this already is a positive experience, it brought back part of me that I thought were not there anymore and it's becoming rocket fuel to become an even better person.
The devaluing and disempowering part actually already happened, but to be honest, I was the one that allowed that to happen, and my life contingencies had a big role on that.
Getting back to the situation and how to move forward
I'm pretty aware that I'm in absolutely a very very low power position here, probably the lowest I could be. To a certain extent, that awareness might become power itself as I feel like it cannot get worse than this, and would allow me to emotionally detach to a certain extent.
The turning around part here is more like spreading ideas here and there than a specific strategy, also even though I'm "studying" a lot about power dynamics and I may have a good degree of awareness some things comes naturally after a certain degree of experience which I currently lack, but hey.
Some considerations here are:
To a certain extent she enjoyed attention from a guy like me a lot, even if it was just to validate herself, so going from full validation to blocking her and not even watching a single Instagram story of her outfits, probably has had some kind of effect.-
Now that I'm a bit more detached and a bit more aware of power dynamics happening I could respond to that in a better way to rebalance things out.
The thing with her ex is pretty big and is, to her saying, what is blocking her from getting into a relationship is her feeling for her ex, which is again something that could be interesting to explore, as using similar behaviors may attract her more.
To her admission, she likes someone who she feels can "protect" her and have a sense of dominance.
Some possible detailed practical strategies:
We messaged mainly on Instagram, and she uses that as a tool to share stuff and things around, so all things I'd do now revolve around the use of that.
- She uses stories a lot and watches who sees what a lot. The subtle strategy could be letting her see I'm looking at some of her stuff again, without commenting or following her yet. Proceed from there to see if she engages somehow with me. If she does that's in itself a sort of small rebalancing. If she doesn't go bit by bit and follow here, at which point I expect her to engage. From there ask her out on a specific day, go zero contact until the date, and test things out there.
- Straight out messaging her that detaching actually helped and being the kind of guy that I am I just needed to cool off and I do not feel like we need to keep the drama up as there's no utility in that. From there actually tell her that a friendship is a no-go for me, and to get back when she's less messed up. This is actually more like a "moving on" kind of strategy, but I could in the meantime us part of strategy 1 to rebalance things.
Apart from that, I'm all ears on what some possible ideas from you are.

First of all Lucio, thanks for the amazing answer. I wish you could see the grin on my face.

It's toxic, it's what makes it perversely attractive, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be an emotional mess, you're fighting against the odds... And that's why you know you can't back down.

It's incredible how you were able to sum up how I feel in a single sentence.

Honestly, as you might be able to tell I've never been one to back down from things, no matter what, no matter how painful, no matter how scary, no matter how messy it would get, that's my general rule of thumb in life.

To speak more about my awareness of the situation, it's pretty clear to me this is not easy or ideal in any way.

As you stated she's a bit of a damaged person, and for as much as some of the things she did may or may have not been fully intentional, the result and the power dynamics are not changing at all, and as you are saying that might be my overall positive view of people thinking that's not something you do intentionally.

Anyhow.

There are many red flags and it will hurt, but at a certain point in life, I started seeing my scars more like trophies of sorts, lessons I learned, and things that helped me move forward in ways that would have not been possible if not through enduring that kind of a pain to build a stronger mind.

On my eyes, all this already is a positive experience, it brought back part of me that I thought were not there anymore and it's becoming rocket fuel to become an even better person.

The devaluing and disempowering part actually already happened, but to be honest, I was the one that allowed that to happen, and my life contingencies had a big role on that.

Getting back to the situation and how to move forward

I'm pretty aware that I'm in absolutely a very very low power position here, probably the lowest I could be. To a certain extent, that awareness might become power itself as I feel like it cannot get worse than this, and would allow me to emotionally detach to a certain extent.

The turning around part here is more like spreading ideas here and there than a specific strategy, also even though I'm "studying" a lot about power dynamics and I may have a good degree of awareness some things comes naturally after a certain degree of experience which I currently lack, but hey.

Some considerations here are:

To a certain extent she enjoyed attention from a guy like me a lot, even if it was just to validate herself, so going from full validation to blocking her and not even watching a single Instagram story of her outfits, probably has had some kind of effect.-
Now that I'm a bit more detached and a bit more aware of power dynamics happening I could respond to that in a better way to rebalance things out.
The thing with her ex is pretty big and is, to her saying, what is blocking her from getting into a relationship is her feeling for her ex, which is again something that could be interesting to explore, as using similar behaviors may attract her more.
To her admission, she likes someone who she feels can "protect" her and have a sense of dominance.

Some possible detailed practical strategies:
We messaged mainly on Instagram, and she uses that as a tool to share stuff and things around, so all things I'd do now revolve around the use of that.

- She uses stories a lot and watches who sees what a lot. The subtle strategy could be letting her see I'm looking at some of her stuff again, without commenting or following her yet. Proceed from there to see if she engages somehow with me. If she does that's in itself a sort of small rebalancing. If she doesn't go bit by bit and follow here, at which point I expect her to engage. From there ask her out on a specific day, go zero contact until the date, and test things out there.

- Straight out messaging her that detaching actually helped and being the kind of guy that I am I just needed to cool off and I do not feel like we need to keep the drama up as there's no utility in that. From there actually tell her that a friendship is a no-go for me, and to get back when she's less messed up. This is actually more like a "moving on" kind of strategy, but I could in the meantime us part of strategy 1 to rebalance things.

Apart from that, I'm all ears on what some possible ideas from you are.

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#4 · February 21, 2022, 9:18 pm

Another thing that came to mind:

- A month ago, after the kiss thing I matched back with her on happn a dating app, since she changed her phone and the backups reactivated the app.

I got pretty suspicious of that, but she actually messaged me directly to specify that after the match, and I just responded with "Do I know you?" with a laughing emoji, she funnily replied "Oh I probably got the wrong person. A nice play could be messaging here back there in a few days saying "hey we matched a month ago here and we haven't even gotten drinks! wanna hang out?" and as crazy at is sounds if she responds positively, trying to fully play that part and taking her to a "first date". Just throwing crazy ideas and not sure if I can pull that off 😂

#5 · February 22, 2022, 2:30 am

Great attitude, Parsifal.

I think that the low-effort ones should be the first ones to go for.

Such as:

Watching her story: but actually, don't even watch it. Just click on it and close it right away
Like one or two stories / pictures: just make sure it's not the attention-whoring ones

Don't message at first, say nothing.

Post something on your own IG if that's something you usually do, and ideally not only with the intention of getting her attention.

It's much better if she comes at you first.

For now, that's it.

Later on

Only then I'd even consider messaging her -but probably I'd never advice to do it first-.

Concocting chance encounters is a much better way than messaging, and especially so if you can show higher power.

For example, walking with a new woman, or being at the same party where you have high status and have people reacting well to you while you have fun.

There are many examples in both PU and SU of women who magically remembered me when they saw me with another woman, talking to another woman, or generally being cool and having a good time somewhere.

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#6 · February 22, 2022, 6:46 am

Thanks Lucio,

solid advice here.

To be honest I liked the idea of doing the first date thing, since it would be a warmer and sort of fun way to "reset" things but there are probably too many things that can wrong there.

I'll see what I can do about building up a "chance" encounter, she not truly being a party animal, and covid are making that a bit complicated now.

If she engages first and messages me, should I just shrug it off or state something/ask her out in your opinion?

#7 · February 22, 2022, 11:28 am

Quote from Parsifal on February 22, 2022, 6:46 am
If she engages first and messages me, should I just shrug it off or state something/ask her out in your opinion?

Not immediately, that would be going right back into chasing.

Vibe a bit, you should have enough leverage and rapport with the past history that you can talk for a while.

The trick is to come across as "not chasing anymore, loving life... Miiight still be interested to meet you, but you gotta invest more now cause I ain't gonna do all the work anymore".

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#8 · August 22, 2022, 7:45 pm

Like Einstein said "You can't do the same thing and expect a different outcome"

The easiest way to turn things around is do the exact opposite of what you've been doing. Do a 180.

Do it gradually though because otherwise she would thing you're bipolar or something.

You know what lead to her loss of attraction for you. Start by doing the opposite in that area.

#9 · August 23, 2022, 3:56 am

Quote from Kavalier on August 23, 2022, 3:56 am
Hello, Parsifal
Glad to find a fellow knight around here!
Lucio is very right: usually the kind of advice you'll find from many in the community is to give up and try another one. And I give this advice all the time, except that ...
I don't follow it myself :)
It's totally ok not to choose the most effective way to date. Actually this is one of the reasons I liked SU so much. Some of us are good old-fashioned lover boys and want to serenade and gently play on heart strings, and SU respects that. In this thread I was in a similar situation, and I received so many good advices from the community that I have to post it here again.
But, yes, I'll second Lucio here: to do this, we have to certify that she's worthy of all this attention.
And either way, some disconnection is important. In terms of mindset, perhaps thinking something along these lines: "I really like this girl. I'm pretty sure we would be happy together. But it's also fine if we don't end up this way, and it also depends on her, now it seems that she needs some space. I'll also use this time to work on myself and perhaps even see if I can connect with someone else".
So you don't give up her, and never fully disappear, but give space to her and to yourself. Don't chase, but treat her warmly. One advice I received from the guys here is to make this prince-like attention conditional. I understand this as meaning "treat her well; but only give this full attention to her if she also gives you her full attention".
The "friend" thing is not an issue. I actually find that "friendly before flirty" works very well for me. And there's a lot of sexual tension going on between you two. You just have to manage it in a way that leads to intimacy when the moment is right.
What I would avoid (easy to say this now that I'm not in a similar situation myself) is to show any sign of being hurt because of her or because you two can't be together. If this means being distant and unavailable for a while, until you make peace with your feelings, I think it's great (but telling her this is usually not good). This is especially more important if she likes strong/dominant men, and wants to be protected, as you say.

Hello, Parsifal

Glad to find a fellow knight around here!

Lucio is very right: usually the kind of advice you'll find from many in the community is to give up and try another one. And I give this advice all the time, except that ...

I don't follow it myself :)

It's totally ok not to choose the most effective way to date. Actually this is one of the reasons I liked SU so much. Some of us are good old-fashioned lover boys and want to serenade and gently play on heart strings, and SU respects that. In this thread I was in a similar situation, and I received so many good advices from the community that I have to post it here again.

But, yes, I'll second Lucio here: to do this, we have to certify that she's worthy of all this attention.

And either way, some disconnection is important. In terms of mindset, perhaps thinking something along these lines: "I really like this girl. I'm pretty sure we would be happy together. But it's also fine if we don't end up this way, and it also depends on her, now it seems that she needs some space. I'll also use this time to work on myself and perhaps even see if I can connect with someone else".

So you don't give up her, and never fully disappear, but give space to her and to yourself. Don't chase, but treat her warmly. One advice I received from the guys here is to make this prince-like attention conditional. I understand this as meaning "treat her well; but only give this full attention to her if she also gives you her full attention".

The "friend" thing is not an issue. I actually find that "friendly before flirty" works very well for me. And there's a lot of sexual tension going on between you two. You just have to manage it in a way that leads to intimacy when the moment is right.

What I would avoid (easy to say this now that I'm not in a similar situation myself) is to show any sign of being hurt because of her or because you two can't be together. If this means being distant and unavailable for a while, until you make peace with your feelings, I think it's great (but telling her this is usually not good). This is especially more important if she likes strong/dominant men, and wants to be protected, as you say.

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#10 · August 23, 2022, 10:10 pm

Quote from Kavalier on August 23, 2022, 3:56 am
And either way, some disconnection is important. In terms of mindset, perhaps thinking something along these lines: "I really like this girl. I'm pretty sure we would be happy together. But it's also fine if we don't end up this way, and it also depends on her, now it seems that she needs some space. I'll also use this time to work on myself and perhaps even see if I can connect with someone else".

Yeah, exactly, it may be worth reminding that there is protracted courting that is persisting and determined (and potentially effective) but, that taken to an extreme, can then turn into, respectively, stalking and addiction.

So it's good to remind ourselves of that risk, and to make sure we don't cross into those toxic extremes.

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