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How to beat my ex-girlfriend's frame
Hello guys,
Jimmy here :)
I recently had a conversation with my ex-girlfriend.
For context: things finished off on good terms. She was a devoted girlfriend but life got in the way (she had to move overseas) so we broke up. Now, she's returning to the city but we agreed not to get back together (given the fact that we both dated other people in between, I don't think we can be partners again and she agrees.)
Now, our conversation was about whether we can become friends or not.
Here's our exchange:
Me: Me, you, Joe and Emily for hotpot? Not the best idea. I'm not guaranteeing anything yet. We'll have to see when you're back how things evolve.
Her: Yes, but at least if we're not one to one, the sexual/romantic tension will stay under the surface and that won't be an issue!
Me: Hmmm, the tension will always be there. Because that's us. One wink at you and you'll get all flustered, you know it ;)
Her: Uhh... Phrases like that make me extremely uncomfortable, I'm sorry... Can you not flirt with me?
Me: I communicate the way I do, the way I feel
Her: I know but flirting's over the line.
Me: If that makes you uncomfortable, then it's best we don't communicate.
Her: Alright. Goodbye then.
I think I bought into the her frame that me flirting = making her uncomfortable.
Here's what I came up with as a better way to tackle it:
Her: .....Can you not flirt with me?
Me: I communicate the way I've always done. This is how who I am.
Her: I get that but it makes me extremely uncomfortable
Me: As I said, I've always been a certain way. I'm the same guy you met and fell for at this business lunch. I communicated openly and without restraint. This is how I've been during our two years (she knows that about me) and this is how I've been all the time. And that won't change
Her: Alright then, we should avoid talking (This is her most likely response based on what I know of her)
For more context: her asking me to not flirt with her is a clear power move, given that our relationship started and ran off her unable to resist my charm and calling me "Jack Sparrow" (because of the resemblance and me constantly flirting with her)
So me flirting with her is how we've always communicated, even some time after break up. And she's always accepted the frame that I'm a flirty guy and will slip the occasional flirty comment here.
What do you guys think?
Hey Jimmy,
Welcome here.
Actually, I think you did great.
And I very much prefer your original reply and don't think you fell into her frame at all.
It was actually very high dominance.
If anything, it might have been too dominant and crossed into "brusque" and very much rapport-breaking (not how you keep friends). Not what I'd personally go for, but that's up to you to decide how you want to communicate, and if you're fine with that, then it was great.
The second one you propose instead was both disempowering to her, but also too braggart for you.
Would have come down as the proverbial lead balloon in my opinion -too sexual, too-.
You'd have lost rapport, but also some status as it might feel try-hard to tell an ex "that's why you fell for me" (= look at me, am I not cool?). Sure, it's phrased in a humorous/high-confident tone, but deep down there's often still a big component that is approval and confirmation-seeking.
So, no, you did good.
Some notes:
Quote from Jimmysmith on June 4, 2022, 4:09 pmHer: Yes, but at least if we're not one to one, the sexual/romantic tension will stay under the surface and that won't be an issue!
I laughed out loud at that: way to start a friendship :D.
The sexual tension will stay under the surface, so it won't' be an issue... Sure, makes sense.
And the bullet will just stay under the skin, and it won't be an issue :D
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 4:25 pmActually, I think you did great.
And I very much prefer your original reply and don't think you fell into her frame at all.
If anything, it might have been "brusque" and very much rapport-breaking (not how you keep friends). Not what I'd personally go for, but that's up to you to decide how you want to communicate, and if you're fine with that, then it was great.
This is super helpful feedback! I actually spent the day understanding frames and when this conversation came up, I went with my intuition. I wasn't so sure how I was doing but your feedback reassures me know I'm gradually getting the gist of it :)
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 4:25 pmThe second one you propose instead was both disempowering to her, but also too braggart for you.
Would have come down as the proverbial lead balloon in my opinion -too sexual, too-.
You'd have lost rapport, but also some status as it might feel try-hard to tell an ex "that's why you fell for me" (= look at me, am I not cool?). Sure, it's phrased in a humorous/high-confident tone, but deep down there's often still a big component that is approval and confirmation-seeking.So, no, you did good.
I agree with your breakdown. It does feel a little try-hard.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 4:25 pm
I laughed out loud at that: way to start a friendship :D.
The sexual tension will stay under the surface, so it won't' be an issue... Sure, makes sense.
And the bullet will just stay under the skin, and it won't be an issue 😀
xD
For weeks now I've been getting the feeling she has a little more than friendship on her mind. Gonna have to keep her in check xD xD
Yeah, also one more note on that second answer:
Quote from Jimmysmith on June 4, 2022, 4:09 pm
Me: As I said, I've always been a certain way. I'm the same guy you met and fell for at this business lunch. I communicated openly and without restraint. This is how I've been during our two years (she knows that about me) and this is how I've been all the time. And that won't change
Her: Alright then, we should avoid talking (This is her most likely response based on what I know of her)
The issue that makes it poor for any type of relationship you may want is that there is a slight frame of "I got you", and that's competitive / me VS you.
She fell for you, you seduced her, there is no reciprocation there... And that might even be true, but you still want to avoid rubbing that "you fell" in her face, lest you lose all social capital, goodwill, and leverage.
Quote from Jimmysmith on June 4, 2022, 4:41 pmFor weeks now I've been getting the feeling she has a little more than friendship on her mind. Gonna have to keep her in check xD xD
Yeah, you might have to :).
Or you can jump into that hot mess with the ex kind of thing.
One of those things you know "shouldn't" be done and is not "proper", but that's also tempting and can be a lot of (messy) fun.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 5:22 pm
The issue that makes it poor for any type of relationship you may want is that there is a slight frame of "I got you", and that's competitive / me VS you.
She fell for you, you seduced her, there is no reciprocation there... And that might even be true, but you still want to avoid that "I got you" frame, lest you lose all social capital, goodwill, and leverage.
Indeed. I hadn't thought about it in the "I got you", competitive perspective. I'm glad I didn't go ahead with that second response, which I was planning to if she had called me back.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 5:22 pm
Yeah, you might have to :).
Or you can jump into that hot mess with the ex kind of thing.
One of those things you know "shouldn't" be done and is not "proper", but that's also tempting and can be a lot of (messy) fun.
I would be lying if I said I hadn't considered it ;)
Hello Jimmy,
great case study. I would say that I’m sure it’s also on her mind. However, she might be rationally trying to avoid it as you guys discussed it already and went for friendship.
I think there’s a difference between “staying on good terms” and “friendship”.
I personally would either aim for staying on good terms or “last sex”.
The friendship thing between exes, especially if the sexual part was important is tricky I believe. As shown in your example.
So I would focus on what YOU want out of the three and stick with it (rational/Machiavellian approach) or go with the flow (emotional approach), knowing it might end up messing the relationship you had previously.
The friendship works when for instance there are children in between and people have new partners they’re happy with. Also when they are both sure that they’re not compatible romantically-wise.
I think that in your situation that is what is missing. Because to me, having been with other people does not forcibly change the possibility of you being romantically compatible again. (You have not been made “dirty” by going with other people, just other experiences)
What is missing is the “I’m sure we’re not compatible” on both sides. And this doubt feeds the ambivalence and ambiguity in your relationship.
Of course this is from my understanding of the situation, I may be missing something here.
The good thing is that I do believe that everything is still open for you in terms of options: you can let it go or go for more. I think she might be scared of her attraction for you and doing things she might regret later.
“Don’t flirt with me because I don’t want to feel these feelings”
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 5:22 pmYeah, also one more note on that second answer:
Quote from Jimmysmith on June 4, 2022, 4:09 pm
Me: As I said, I've always been a certain way. I'm the same guy you met and fell for at this business lunch. I communicated openly and without restraint. This is how I've been during our two years (she knows that about me) and this is how I've been all the time. And that won't change
Her: Alright then, we should avoid talking (This is her most likely response based on what I know of her)
The issue that makes it poor for any type of relationship you may want is that there is a slight frame of "I got you", and that's competitive / me VS you.
She fell for you, you seduced her, there is no reciprocation there... And that might even be true, but you still want to avoid rubbing that "you fell" in her face, lest you lose all social capital, goodwill, and leverage.
I wanted to respond as well but couldn't put my finger so precisely on what was improvable about the interaction (I agree however that it was overall solid and very dominant). But yes, that is it, exactly the "I got you, you are weak because I am strong, you can't resist me".
A further problem with explicitly stating (instead of merely thinking) "you fall for me as soon as I wink" is also that you kind of motivate her ego into proving you wrong - by not talking to you, which is a very dangerous dynamic.
But please keep us updated what further happened, that makes such threads even more valuable and interesting.
Quote from Anon on June 4, 2022, 7:45 pmI wanted to respond as well but couldn't put my finger so precisely on what was improvable about the interaction (I agree however that it was overall solid and very dominant). But yes, that is it, exactly the "I got you, you are weak because I am strong, you can't resist me".
A further problem with explicitly stating (instead of merely thinking) "you fall for me as soon as I wink" is also that you kind of motivate her ego into proving you wrong - by not talking to you, which is a very dangerous dynamic.
But please keep us updated what further happened, that makes such threads even more valuable and interesting.
Exactly, great point, which is also a general issue with competitive, "me VS you" dynamics.
Quote from John Freeman on June 4, 2022, 7:26 pmHello Jimmy,
great case study. I would say that I’m sure it’s also on her mind. However, she might be rationally trying to avoid it as you guys discussed it already and went for friendship.
I think there’s a difference between “staying on good terms” and “friendship”.
I personally would either aim for staying on good terms or “last sex”.
The friendship thing between exes, especially if the sexual part was important is tricky I believe. As shown in your example.
So I would focus on what YOU want out of the three and stick with it (rational/Machiavellian approach) or go with the flow (emotional approach), knowing it might end up messing the relationship you had previously.
The friendship works when for instance there are children in between and people have new partners they’re happy with. Also when they are both sure that they’re not compatible romantically-wise.
I think that in your situation that is what is missing. Because to me, having been with other people does not forcibly change the possibility of you being romantically compatible again. (You have not been made “dirty” by going with other people, just other experiences)
What is missing is the “I’m sure we’re not compatible” on both sides. And this doubt feeds the ambivalence and ambiguity in your relationship.
Of course this is from my understanding of the situation, I may be missing something here.
The good thing is that I do believe that everything is still open for you in terms of options: you can let it go or go for more. I think she might be scared of her attraction for you and doing things she might regret later.
“Don’t flirt with me because I don’t want to feel these feelings”
Howdy John,
Love this feedback! Agreed on the friendship thing. I'm probably gonna gear it towards on good terms. But I'll see when she comes.
Quote from John Freeman on June 4, 2022, 7:26 pm
I think that in your situation that is what is missing. Because to me, having been with other people does not forcibly change the possibility of you being romantically compatible again. (You have not been made “dirty” by going with other people, just other experiences)
It's interesting you brought this up. To the risk of sounding as a hypocrite, I do view her as dirty for having been with other people. Even if she did nothing wrong given that the relationship was over. My mindset is something like "The dynamic of her submitting to me will never be the same and she'll never view me as powerful as she used to, because there has been a guy in between" (in her case, it's one guy)
I don't like my mindset but I don't want to pretend I'm fine as well. I want to get there internally first.
Quote from Anon on June 4, 2022, 7:45 pmQuote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 4, 2022, 5:22 pmYeah, also one more note on that second answer:
Quote from Jimmysmith on June 4, 2022, 4:09 pm
Me: As I said, I've always been a certain way. I'm the same guy you met and fell for at this business lunch. I communicated openly and without restraint. This is how I've been during our two years (she knows that about me) and this is how I've been all the time. And that won't change
Her: Alright then, we should avoid talking (This is her most likely response based on what I know of her)
The issue that makes it poor for any type of relationship you may want is that there is a slight frame of "I got you", and that's competitive / me VS you.
She fell for you, you seduced her, there is no reciprocation there... And that might even be true, but you still want to avoid rubbing that "you fell" in her face, lest you lose all social capital, goodwill, and leverage.
I wanted to respond as well but couldn't put my finger so precisely on what was improvable about the interaction (I agree however that it was overall solid and very dominant). But yes, that is it, exactly the "I got you, you are weak because I am strong, you can't resist me".
A further problem with explicitly stating (instead of merely thinking) "you fall for me as soon as I wink" is also that you kind of motivate her ego into proving you wrong - by not talking to you, which is a very dangerous dynamic.
But please keep us updated what further happened, that makes such threads even more valuable and interesting.
The "me vs you" dynamic was one I didn't see at all until Lucio pointed it out.
Coming to think of it, it has a lot to do with my own personality. I do enter in a lot of those dynamics in various situations, which never end in the best way. It's not a bad thing at all that this tendency of mine has been raised to the surface...
