Quote from John Freeman on June 17, 2023, 11:37 pm

My better solution would be assertive:

Me: yeah it's totally normal to want to understand but you asking "why" so many times in a row makes it look like it's more about arguing than about learning.

Quote from Transitioned on June 18, 2023, 12:36 am

Hey John

Welcome to pack leadership of the raised by wolf cubs.  Sadly get used to it coz since social media happened that s how it is everywhere.  I m going to popcorn a few ideas  starting with some frames.  And hope Lucio drops by.

Quote from Transitioned on June 18, 2023, 12:47 am

First don't question yourself.  I worked with an ex GM of an international company.  He still had brats challenging him. It's not because you're a bad team lead.

Useful frames I saw him use:

1. They need extra support
2. We re too busy right now for this shit but we will talk later
3. This is a safe space for discussion
4. Good ideas belong to the team and I am the conduit to the team
5. Ways of working/how we work

Let me know if any of those might be relevant to this situation and we can workshop some tactics.  BTW if you could drop in what she said that would help.

[OFF TOPIC]...but very similar.  I replied to one of your old posts here on the challenges of team leadership.

Quote from Gguwad on June 19, 2023, 5:55 pm

A very unpleasant to the receiver yet effective way is to explain why it makes sense and after that keep answering in more and more fed-up and tired tone to highlight that the person is not getting something obvious and they should just do what they are told if they don't understand ( Works if you are more experienced than them ), so they have to stop their questioning or they will look more and more like an idiot.

If they ask a question that is obvious you may answer with "stop and think about this for a moment", showing that they just keep asking without giving it proper thought and you make them look clueless, also turning back dynamic about them having to do the answering. Ruthless but makes them wary of asking stupid questions.

Some people do it even if the questions make sense, makes them look like an asshole though, still works if you don't care and want to have peace, makes sure they will think twice when coming to you to ask for something ( wouldn't use that personally though ).

Quote from Maverick on June 20, 2023, 8:50 am

Quote from John Freeman on June 17, 2023, 10:31 pm

Hello,

I have another gaslighter in the team, another resident. I identified her as a narcissist but thought I had it under control.

Basically, she's very argumentative and questioning our decisions.

So today she was questioning our decisions and said many times "Why?". So it turned in a power showdown where I was supposed to justify myself (power down of course).

Then she said:

Her: I'm just trying to understand

Me (a bit irritated): well ask our chief because I'm done arguing.

And I had to leave anyway.

Publicly I lost the showdown because it looks like I was frame imposing (which I was) because I could not find an escape to her game.

She's playing on the fact that she's supposed to understand our decision before applying them and that we're supposed to teach her. But what she's really implying is that it's a "bad decision" or a "stupid decision" or "bad management". I witnessed her when she did it to our chief sometime ago as well when she put her on the defensive. For more context, there was a whole argument about the definition of fever before.

I'm curious to know about your thoughts on this.

PS: this could fit in "work" but it can be also found in arguments in our social circle.

Hi John,

Sounds like she is trying to undermine your authority, and she seems to be doing it by getting you to convince her that your idea will work, she is taking the judge position subtly.  I see two possible ways I would tackle her.

1. Me: Well X, I see you have a lot of questions about my idea, before I go further, why don't you share any good ideas you have?

   (This would effectively stop her questioning and put you back in the driver seat, and you can continue questioning her ideas.)

2. Me:  X, You seem to have a hard time understanding what my idea is, why don't you step into my office later if you have more questions about and I'll try to help you out.

   (By doing this, it will stop her undermining your authority in public, and also you will be able see how far she is willing to play this game.)

These are some of the responses that come to mind, happy to hear more thoughts on this.

Mav

Quote from Ali Scarlett on June 26, 2023, 4:34 pm

I like many of the ideas I've seen in this thread so far.

Without the context of the actual quoted back-and-forth conversation, I think that if they're truly asking you to explain something, then it puts you in a higher power position of explaining from a position of domain authority (similar to a teacher frame).

However, as you already touched on, John, it's when they're trying to get you to go from explaining to justifying (under the guise of "just trying to understand") that it can become power-taking.

So, if it's a small or obvious thing, what I might do is deny explaining further altogether. For example, you can say something like:

You: "I hear you and I'm happy that you want to understand this better. However, to be frank, I can't always explain everything. There will be some cases where I just need you to trust me. Can you do that?

By addressing it this way, it not only denies their justify yourself/question authority power move, but by setting that frame of "trust your leader", it makes it harder for them to pull that power move again in the future since they'll be coming up to you knowing that they should be trusting you.

Happy to read any thoughts on this.

Quote from John Freeman on June 28, 2023, 8:33 pm

Hello guys,

thank you very much for the awesome responses!

Sorry for the delay, had a stretch of 7 days of work, just recovered now.

"stop and think about this for a moment"

Yes, DGX37. I agree with you with the strength of it. This is kind of last resort weapon after some escalation that is several explanations. It's good to have it in our "belt". So yes definitely an option.

I notice more and more that some people that look innocent (young feminist intern at the hospital) actually ask questions to make you invest. It looks genuine but like a debate where it could look it's about mutual exchange, it's about power dynamics. They use the frame that you're supposed to answer their questions and make you in the investing role. I think one of the ways is to give short answers. They feed off you investing. It makes them feel more powerful/valuable I imagine. Probably an unconscious way to acquire status/self-esteem.

@Maverick: Definitely, it's about taking the judge position. I have another resident who's doing that. She told me the other day: "Thanks for the day" which is a formulation that only bosses use. So I answered back: "Thanks for the day to you" to balance it. So I'm dealing with some nasty power players: they're not bosses, they're not nurses, they're residents. So I can now understand the nurses' point of view on nasty residents. If you encounter them you're in for a ride.

Regarding your propositions: yes, definitely.

I think they are one less level higher power than DGX37 propositions.

1. I like this one and also use something along those lines. The standard one I learned at the hospital when someone criticises your decisions is: "so what do you propose?". It communicates the same thing. It's very powerful as 90% of the times the person is dumbfounded which proves that it was empty criticism. They're not happy with the decisions but don't have a better one to propose. If they do have one: even better now we are working as a team and I can use their idea or not. So intermediate in terms of domination to be used if the other person is not too nasty, otherwise it's sensible to use the big guns ("Stop and...").
2. This in the same vein of "Stop and think". It's very dominant. It gives them back the responsibility to make an effort and makes them work, not only the recipient. So there is also tasking in it. Powerful and put them back in their place.

@Ali:

Without the context of the actual quoted back-and-forth conversation, I think that if they're truly asking you to explain something, then it puts you in a higher power position of explaining from a position of domain authority (similar to a teacher frame).

However, as you already touched on, John, it's when they're trying to get you to go from explaining to justifying (under the guise of "just trying to understand") that it can become power-taking.

Totally agree with your analysis.

You: "I hear you and I'm happy that you want to understand this better. However, to be frank, I can't always explain everything. There will be some cases where I just need you to trust me. Can you do that?

It's good and it's not as dominant as the other solutions proposed so it gives another alternative. It's also useful for me as the gaslighting has power because until reading your answer, I was thinking: "I must explain everything". My philosophy in life and at work is empowerment. However, this can be turned against me. Giving away power makes possible that the person takes this power and returns it against you. I agree with the frame setting and its power for future situations like this.

Thank you very much DGX37, Maverick and Ali for your awesome answers!

It helps me to see this situation from different perspectives and gives me alternative ways to answer:

1. They can think before asking
2. I don't have to explain everything

Cheers!

 

Quote from John Freeman on June 29, 2023, 9:44 pm

Quote from Transitioned on June 18, 2023, 12:36 am

Hey John

Welcome to pack leadership of the raised by wolf cubs.  Sadly get used to it coz since social media happened that s how it is everywhere.  I m going to popcorn a few ideas  starting with some frames.  And hope Lucio drops by.

I saw your name logging in on the forum right now and it just popped up in my head I had this on the stove: my apologies I did not read properly all the answers before my answer above.

Yeah definitely, there is an entitlement mindset that is just annoying and prevalent. It has a generational component I totally agree with you.

1. They need extra support
2. We re too busy right now for this shit but we will talk later
3. This is a safe space for discussion
4. Good ideas belong to the team and I am the conduit to the team
5. Ways of working/how we work

Powerful frames, I'm putting them in my notes.

Let me know if any of those might be relevant to this situation and we can workshop some tactics.  BTW if you could drop in what she said that would help.

I did not remember exactly, it was a lot of back and forth. I wrote this days after it happened. What you wrote is very helpful, thank you very much! It's about the mindset of leadership and I'm slowly learning it.

I learned how to defer to authority in the past 5 years now I have to learn how to have authority. A new gig.

I hope you are well!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 30, 2023, 11:07 pm

Yep, great answers here already.

Didn't re-read everything but I remember that I went through this one some days ago:

Quote from DGX37 on June 19, 2023, 5:55 pm

A very unpleasant to the receiver yet effective way is to explain why it makes sense and after that keep answering in more and more fed-up and tired tone to highlight that the person is not getting something obvious and they should just do what they are told if they don't understand ( Works if you are more experienced than them ), so they have to stop their questioning or they will look more and more like an idiot.

If they ask a question that is obvious you may answer with "stop and think about this for a moment", showing that they just keep asking without giving it proper thought and you make them look clueless, also turning back dynamic about them having to do the answering. Ruthless but makes them wary of asking stupid questions.

Some people do it even if the questions make sense, makes them look like an asshole though, still works if you don't care and want to have peace, makes sure they will think twice when coming to you to ask for something ( wouldn't use that personally though ).

And thought "really good".

It's certainly not "straight talk", but straight as in "you're doing this on purpose" can backfire real bad because their cover of not understanding can be really solid.

So even if you want to do the straight talk, this is a really good approach to prepare the ground for it.

In this case, you don't remove the cover with questions, but with facts:

1. Explanation
2. Re-explanation to make it even clearer
3. Repeat as you show displeasure at the time wasting

Quickly enough, their cover is blown.
Not only it's not credible anymore they don't get the meaning, but it's also not credible that they don't get they're being social burden and taking and taking from all.

And even if they truly don't get that... They're still being takers.
And people don't like takers, even when they're truly clueless.

Then you can play exactly on that:

Time is precious, you got things to do, others in the room have things to do, and you can't all waste time with one person being difficult and holding up the whole group.

Frame it that way, and you effectively isolate her against the whole group, with you in the lead.

You win, and do exactly what an effective leader should do.