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I'm the "good tip guy": one-upped in a WA group
Hello TPM community,
I talked about JB here and here. He's a "friend" whom corresponds to Lucio's definition: someone I have to put boundaries with. Quite a social challenge and I learned a lot. I feel we're reaching a conclusion, or at least a confrontation. Bel recommended me to cut ties with him and now I am considering it as an option. It's becoming a problem.
Context
This is the WA group where I organize board games: 8 people in it. All male. From a few different groups I met and brought people together. I've been to a hairdresser I've not been in 5 years and the guy is just great. I recommend him to my friends through the group. I tell them it's cheap, good haircut, great guy, great conversation and you get a coffee.
Exchange
In the group
John: If you're looking for an excellent cheap hairdresser (44 haircut + beard + shampoo) and very available. I can recommend one to you. And yes all that. Without talking about the exchange. Hence this message. And a coffee! :)
JB: Hahaha john the good tips
John: Personally I would be happy to have a friend giving me resources. To be honest with you your attitude makes me wonder (rough translation).
JB: I am interested by both. I call you after work.
John: Hello contact me in private today is not possible for me.
JB (answers to the surfacing): Me? It was just a bit of humour. I am actually happy to have a friend with good tips 😂
JB: 🤔 I don't understand too well the formulations here.. I cannot call you?
John: Today I don't have time unfortunately. Of course we can call one another and even see one another another day. Just have to organize ourselves (french formulation).
John (answering to the gaslighting): So I don't find it funny and for me it's not a joke. Because of course one can tell it's a joke and that it's the other person who did not understand. We will have the opportunity to talk about it. That being said I wish you a good day nevertheless.
John: Happy to know you appreciate the sharing.
JB: So sorry we did not understand each other. For me it was sincerely humour. I will be cautious to not do jokes anymore for fear of not being understood or to vex someone. Good day as well.
John: Yes but JB it's not about that. We'll talk about it together it's easier.
JB: Ok no worries. Because there I don't understand your reaction. But nothing serious on my side.
John: Nothing serious on mine either! All good
JB: Yes you'll tell me when you have time so we can call one another 😉
John: Yes! I'll let you know
(*click to expand)
In private
John (at 6pm): Hello JB my event is cancelled. Available if you want to talk now until this evening.
JB: I start my sport session. We see after if you're available.
John: Take your time all good.
John (a bit later): You just have to call me when you're available. If I don't pick up the phone it means I'm asleep and we'll find another moment.
Did not call but read my messages, we're 2 day later now.
Analysis
In the group
John: If you're looking for an excellent cheap hairdresser (44 haircut + beard + shampoo) and very available. I can recommend one to you. And yes all that. Without talking about the exchange. Hence this message. And a coffee! :)
Give potential value. If interested people have to let me know.
JB: Hahaha john the good tips
Power move: frames me as a low value/status perso serving them. Haven't found yet the proper frame/category. But definitely a power move. Since he also put a laughing emoji on my value offer and there is no joke inside of it. Maybe frames me as giving value out of being low value.
John: Personally I would be happy to have a friend giving me resources. To be honest with you your attitude makes me wonder (rough translation).
Trying my best at assertiveness.
JB: I am interested. I call you after work.
Hints of proud value taking as he makes fun of me but is interested.
John: Hello contact me in private today is not possible for me.
I have a wine tasting this evening.
JB (answers to the surfacing): Me? It was just a bit of humour. I am actually happy to have a friend with good tips 😂
Gaslighting. And piles up on the low value/status guy frame with a laughing emoji.
JB: 🤔 I don't understand too well the formulations here.. I cannot call you?
Probably true he's not understanding.
John: Today I don't have time unfortunately. Of course we can call one another and even see one another another day. Just have to organize ourselves (french formulation).
States my schedule.
John: So I don't find it funny and for me it's not a joke. Because of course one can tell it's a joke and that it's the other person who did not understand. We will have the opportunity to talk about it. That being said I wish you a good day nevertheless.
Answering to the gaslighting: going meta. Olive branch to talk. Closes with rebuilding rapport.
John: Happy to know you appreciate the sharing.
Also olive branch (ignore the lauging emoji above to that end): it's all good if you appreciate it. Face-saving: keeps open the possibility of a misunderstanding.
JB: So sorry we did not understand each other. For me it was sincerely humour. I will be cautious to not do jokes anymore for fear of not being understood or to vex someone. Good day as well.
Sorry: takes the responsibility for us not understanding each other instead of apologising for his own communication. Takes responsibility for my communication as well. So power move. Frame imposes: it is humour. And then more gaslighting/victim playing (this type of sentence in bold is typical of manipulators). Also frames me as thin-skinned. The good day wishes feels hypocritical here.
John: Yes but JB it's not about that. We'll talk about it together it's easier.
Rejects the manipulative frame. Don't want to go in such discussion in public and in a WA group (communication is not optimal at all). States that we'll resolve this in person or on the phone.
JB: Ok no worries. Because there I don't understand your reaction. But nothing serious on my side.
No worries: power move. As if I did something wrong which is not the case. "But nothing serious" = "I'm not angry at you" power move. Someone is mad when they have been slighted. So it means that he forgives me. Frames me as the bad person. (Off-topic: interesting to see that learning from a situation 1.5 year ago with a nurse at the hospital translates to other situations, a case for learning power dynamics/social skills and case studies analysis).
John: Nothing serious on mine either! All good
Neutralizes his power move through basic mirroring.
JB: Yes you'll tell me when you have time so we can call one another 😉
Tasks me. But here it's fair as I'm the busiest of the two. He could have power protected here though. Wink: power move.
John: Yes! I'll let you know
Self-tasking to neutralize the tasking.
In private
John (at 6pm): Hello JB my event is cancelled. Available if you want to talk now until this evening.
My wine event was cancelled. Got in the right bus but in the wrong direction :P so I would have arrived too late: my responsibility.
JB: I start my sport session. We see after if you're available.
Seems fair.
John: Take your time all good.
Power protects that he's not available now.
John (a bit later): You just have to call me when you're available. If I don't pick up the phone it means I'm asleep and we'll find another moment.
I felt like I was waiting on him. So sends him a message to tell him that there is a time limit after which I won't be able to talk.
Did not call but read my messages, we're 2 day later now.
Total power move. Played the waiting game and/or the ignoring game.
The aftermath
One of our friends told me I over-reacted in his mind. I told him I expected him to say that. I told him that to me now self-respect is above all so I don't care what other people in the group think about me.
My intention
I will give him a week. After that I'll launch my next board game poll and he just won't be invited. Too much disrespect. So I have to navigate smoothly. But this time I won't destroy the WA group. I will kick him out and deal with the consequences on my status/reputation. Also the fear from other people to get kicked out. I'll be in the grey area so tough to navigate always. Basically he has one week to call me. After that I'll take action and will do my best to do it strategically. But this is another episode.
If you have any input on this case, I'm curious to know about it.
Cheers John.
I think you did great, ignoring the frames that try to reframe the situation in his favor and going straight to business. I wouldn't have been able to come up with that.
I think that frame of you overreacting should be surfaced/checked, since you didn't overreact at all: you were cool the whole time nor you were rude, he basically made a joke but you don't see that as a joke, you don't see the "funny" part (because there isn't) and you want to have straight talk from man to man with a "friend" to prevent misunderstandings in the group. There's no "overreacting" there. I see that as the frame that could better suit you here.
That's how I see it, also, nasty power players could exploit the overreacting frame to their benefit. Maybe your friend didn't purposefully frame it that way, you know better.
That's how I see the whole situation, feel free to comment about it.
Hello Power Duck,
thank you very very much for your answer! I'll take the time to answer properly when I have more time to think as I'm at work right.
Came here to comment while I remember:
I told him that to me now self-respect is above all so I don't care what other people in the group think about me.
This is a power move from me. Saying I don't care what the group think is not the right way to phrase it. It self-ostracizes me as not caring about the group's moral norms. It's a rejection power move. The right way to say it is:
John: to me now self-respect is above all so I accept whatever people think about it.
Better than:
John: to me now self-respect is above all so I accept if people judge me
Because the one above introduces the thread: "people judge me".
Hello John, you guys already have a passif, so you know better.
In the first interaction, I think you did great with your first response. You had a nice push back on his comment, so I think you didn’t end up disempowered at all.
Honestly it could’ve ended there. The rest in my opinion was unnecessary.
when he says “I’ll call you after work” you don’t even need to respond since it’s a group chat.
In group chats, unless you receive a red level power move, it is easy to be framed as overreactive by other people just half following the conversation.
The test of leadership/social capital will be when you cut him off and kick him out (if you do it).
If the group overall thinks you're right/have more social capital/displayed a better character, they will rally.
Show up even more, be supportive, maybe even straight tell you "you did great man" and things will improve.
If not, it means they didn't think JB was all that bad and/or didn't see enough social capital from you to do that.
There is of course some "social slack" at play.
Some people just go with the path of least resistance or with whatever's left of the group -or, in many cases, with the higher power person whether he's right or wrong-.
But still, it's a telling moment.
Edit:
I must also add I don't see a crystal clear case of anyone being right/wrong here.
The first opening message also feels like a "not cool" move / power move to me.
Agree with many of the thoughts already shared above. I also think the way John handled it was fine.
Another way to go about it that might've minimized the chances of being seen as overreacting may have also been something like this:
JB: Hahaha john the good tips
John: That's weird to say (meta-comment to safely call out the joke as a covert power move), what do you mean by that (frame surfacing)
JB: Me? It was just a bit of humour. I am actually happy to have a friend with good tips 😂
John: Yeah, but I didn't understand the joke. What do you mean by that (frame surfacing)
JB: So sorry we did not understand each other. For me it was sincerely humour. I will be cautious to not do jokes anymore for fear of not being understood or to vex someone (power move: frames you as not being able to take a joke). Good day as well.
John: Yeah, I think that might be better ("change the meaning" frame control: treat not as him playing another power move, but proposing a legitimate solution), cheers.
A part of where one or more people might've felt you overreacted was because you invested more effort than you needed to in addressing the issue.
This is lower in effort (especially since you end the conversation first), and positions you to be able to check his jokes more easily in the future. (E.g. If he does it again, you can say, "JB, we agreed you weren't going to do those kinds of jokes anymore.")
Also, you may be able to give him a call in private anyway. That way:
- The group isn't dragged into it: and you've already handled things well in the group to keep your reputation/social capital
- He doesn't use the back-and-forth scheduling to his advantage: such as to sneak in another covert power move which you would then have the (possibly difficult) decision of either ignoring or stopping to address again
- You settle things for good: over that one-on-one call
Happy to ready any thoughts on if anyone agrees or disagrees.
Cheers Power Duck,
thank you very much for your answer!
Quote from Power Duck on January 19, 2024, 10:46 amCheers John.
I think you did great, ignoring the frames that try to reframe the situation in his favor and going straight to business. I wouldn't have been able to come up with that.
Thank you Power Duck. I owe this to PU, TPM and writing on the forum.
I think that frame of you overreacting should be surfaced/checked, since you didn't overreact at all: you were cool the whole time nor you were rude, he basically made a joke but you don't see that as a joke,
Right.
you don't see the "funny" part (because there isn't) and you want to have straight talk from man to man with a "friend" to prevent misunderstandings in the group.
Right. Glad we agree on the funny-not-funny "joke".
There's no "overreacting" there. I see that as the frame that could better suit you here.
Yeah it's important to check it and frame it appropriately. In my notes.
That's how I see it, also, nasty power players could exploit the overreacting frame to their benefit. Maybe your friend didn't purposefully frame it that way, you know better.
He did not say it intentionally. He's closer to me than to JB. It's because I used to be thin-skinned (people mispronouncing my name) and now I'm not anymore (or at least I feel like it). So he refers to the "past me". We argued one time about how we should address people mispronouncing our names. So he bases it of off this episode.
Thank you (again)! Very helpful.
Hello Jack,
thank you very much for your answer!
I think you have a cool perspective complementary to other active members. I would love to read more of your perspectives on other topics (written by everyone of course).
Quote from Jack on January 19, 2024, 11:32 amHello John, you guys already have a passif, so you know better.
Yep. That's what I told my other friend. It's not the first time he's doing it. Hell I have 2 threads only dedicated to defending against him. And this is the 3rd one. With some distance, I would not say 100% sure he's a manipulator but definitely a game player and very power aware.
In the first interaction, I think you did great with your first response. You had a nice push back on his comment, so I think you didn’t end up disempowered at all.
Honestly it could’ve ended there. The rest in my opinion was unnecessary.
Yes, definitely. Again I'll use the same word: re-reading this part with your perspective I see it now. I think you're totally right.
when he says “I’ll call you after work” you don’t even need to respond since it’s a group chat.
Yes, I can see that now. Upgraded my social intelligence.
In group chats, unless you receive a red level power move, it is easy to be framed as overreactive by other people just half following the conversation.
Yes, I know this now thanks to you and this experience. I thread-expanded on it which made me look as if I was vexed by it. I was not vexed I was irritated before my first answer and then not anymore as soon as I wrote it. So no emotions after the initial response. He's a good game player so going against him I knew was going to be tough. But I held my own. His power awareness and social skills are still higher than mine at the moment. I'm getting closer though. However, my people reading skills are now superior to his. During games I can guess his moves and he cannot guess mines. Yes, a comparison in the context of evaluating an opponent.
Thank you!
Hello Lucio,
thank you very much for your answer!
We're going into strategy and leadership: cool cool. :)
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 19, 2024, 12:07 pmThe test of leadership/social capital will be when you cut him off and kick him out (if you do it).
Well, that's what I noticed when I was at my place. I may be the leader of the group but he's the leader of the French who are a majority in the group. An example: at my place when we were playing board games I was explaining rules. And my "friends" were not listening. They were joking and interrupting me (upcoming post). He said: "listen to John" and everybody shut up. So that's telling. He actually has more social capital than me. Because:
I did not invest in relationships since I understood they were not close friends. Huge leadership mistake. So basically now we're "board games" friends. I purposefully reduced the scope of our friendship from my disappointment. Since he's always having fun (hedonist) he's doing more activities (in my observation) with them than me. I plan on writing a post on what I call value-based leadership. I gave them tons of value, way more than he did. But he's more socially dominant and has better social skills. Also the place where the jester style of dominance reigns supreme is in fun environments. So he has basically more status within the French. People like the value that I provide but I'm not sure I have as much influence as he has on them.
As you say, that will be the test.
My current strategy is to talk with him and see how he reacts. Then:
Plan A: he reacts well, half-apologizes or at least show some regret: all good. I'll now have my defenses up around him. We continue the games but I do my best to choose dates when he's not available (he's available a lot). See how it goes from there and see how well I tolerate this. It's not agreeable to be around someone when you have to have your defenses up.
Plan B: he's defensive, blames me and gaslights. I'll say my boundaries and say that it's all good. So I'll make peace on the surface but will have now intel I cannot trust him. I'll fade him very very slowly. I thought about it: it's not socially advantageous to kick him out. It would be the 2nd time so now since people don't see his games they will start to see me as a person who cannot laugh about himself and is ready to cut relationships for this reason. So they'll walk on eggshells around me. Not a good situation to be in. Also I would lose a lot of leadership capital because I would lose a lot of trust from them. It would be then difficult to regain it. So my best interest is to keep him part of the group, but far from the center and in check. I'll have to replace him close to the center with someone else.
If the group overall thinks you're right/have more social capital/displayed a better character, they will rally.
That's the tricky part. I'm not sure so I think the risk is high. I now know that despite all I did it's not guaranteed. Better character: I think so. Social capital, since I withdrew a bit from the group, lost some of it. So to mitigate this I have to build better relationships with other people in the group. Strategy, thanks.
Show up even more, be supportive, maybe even straight tell you "you did great man" and things will improve.
It would be cool but since people don't see through his games they only see my reaction. They like him. They think he's a bohemian (he is) so they're not taking him too seriously. So they respect him but in a way my contextual status of fun he might be higher power than me.
If not, it means they didn't think JB was all that bad and/or didn't see enough social capital from you to do that.
Yes, that's the most likely outcome. So I don't have the right condition to do this now. I have to:
- Defend publicly against his moves: show his hand
- Build better social capital: get closer to other members (easy, just have to take people for who they are and drop my expectations to have them as close friends)
Then if he does anything after a few months of this. I can strike.
Another option would be to:
- Destroy his social capital: that would be smear campaign, one-upping publicly, etc. Basically attacking him. the usual power moves and manipulative stuff. It would be using the dark side. And I don't think this is a situation for the dark side. There are other ways to win within the light or the grey. Also, strategically, I would lose my own social capital in the process and make an enemy. So not a good option here I think.
There is of course some "social slack" at play.
Some people just go with the path of least resistance or with whatever's left of the group -or, in many cases, with the higher power person whether he's right or wrong-.
That's the most likely outcome as well. Here the path of least resistance is where is there is the least conflict and the more fun. By being too serious about it I'm somehow disturbing the group's norm: having fun.
But still, it's a telling moment.
Yep, 100%.
Thank you Lucio!
As you can see your message inspired me new strategies. They will help me prepare just in case. I like these guys and I have fun with them. I don't want to take the risk of losing them. I'm not falling to the sunk cost fallacy. I'm fine losing this investment as the investment was in learning. I now know I can do this all over again and probably better. The cost: time and energy. And right now is not the best time for this.
So this is about leadership and thanks to Jocko Willink I now know that leadership is based on relationships.
Hello Ali,
thank you very much for your answer!
Quote from Ali Scarlett on January 19, 2024, 3:57 pmAgree with many of the thoughts already shared above. I also think the way John handled it was fine.
Thank you!
Another way to go about it that might've minimized the chances of being seen as overreacting may have also been something like this:
JB: Hahaha john the good tips
John: That's weird to say (meta-comment to safely call out the joke as a covert power move), what do you mean by that (frame surfacing)
Yep, it's definitely better. I should have surfaced it. Better technique here.
JB: Me? It was just a bit of humour. I am actually happy to have a friend with good tips 😂
John: Yeah, but I didn't understand the joke. What do you mean by that (frame surfacing)
JB: So sorry we did not understand each other. For me it was sincerely humour. I will be cautious to not do jokes anymore for fear of not being understood or to vex someone (power move: frames you as not being able to take a joke). Good day as well.
Yes I think this analysis of framing me as not being able to take a joke is good. This inspires me a defense:
John: I can take jokes.... when they're actually funny!
Or something along those lines. I missed the underlying frame so I did not address it properly. Thanks!
John: Yeah, I think that might be better ("change the meaning" frame control: treat not as him playing another power move, but proposing a legitimate solution), cheers.
Mmmh... not sure I understand here. So you propose to accept his frame of: "since you're so thin-skinned I will not do jokes around you anymore". Did I get that right or am I missing something?
A part of where one or more people might've felt you overreacted was because you invested more effort than you needed to in addressing the issue.
Yep, agree totally. Mistake from my part.
This is lower in effort (especially since you end the conversation first), and positions you to be able to check his jokes more easily in the future. (E.g. If he does it again, you can say, "JB, we agreed you weren't going to do those kinds of jokes anymore.")
Ok see your point now. The thing is that his frame is too general for me to accept: "I won't do any more jokes from now on around you". However, now that he found something I react to he's going to pile up on this frame. Actually, now that I think of it I would like to keep him around for training. That's the good thing with people pointing at your flaws and insecurities. They help us grow. So he's my self-development buddy after all. He just doesn't know about it. And neither did I until now thanks to you.
Also, you may be able to give him a call in private anyway. That way:
- The group isn't dragged into it: and you've already handled things well in the group to keep your reputation/social capital
Yep, right.
- He doesn't use the back-and-forth scheduling to his advantage: such as to sneak in another covert power move which you would then have the (possibly difficult) decision of either ignoring or stopping to address again
Makes sense.
- You settle things for good: over that one-on-one call
Yeah it's worth confronting him. We'll see what gets out of it. My current plan is to call him on Sunday instead of waiting a week. So I'll go the eagle road: "I think you're a very funny and smart guy. However, etc." I won't say this but I mean to sort the good from the bad and not actually overreact in conflict escalation if not in emotions.
Thank you!
