Quote from B on November 25, 2021, 2:02 am

She sent me the data Monday evening, with this message:

"Hi..., sorry for the delay. Send me the invoice and I will forward it".

She is just keeping up her power moves all the time.

In situations like this with other people, I am starting to do the same back (i.e. delay responding to them or just plainly fading them), but without saying "I'm sorry". Here, I felt I had to not react for the moment; I think this is also the reason why I sent her the reissued invoice one day later, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something else that I could have done here. This is probably a consequence of some boundary I failed to impose on her a long time ago.

As you said, I should not overanalyze things here. It's maybe even better if I let her think she has the upper hand for the moment.

Quote from B on November 26, 2021, 12:05 pm

Guys: success! I was paid today.

This is unexpected, but in line with what you said about some people being able to play straight after they see a reaction. My frame of reference so far was, instead, "once a taker, always a taker". I am now even starting to wonder if my initial reaction was too strong.

Though the most important thing here is not payment, but what I could learn from your invaluable help and suggestions. Thank you Matthew for your support and precious involvement, and thank you Lucio for your invaluable suggestions, first of all about not creating open enemies and reacting proportionally: you not only helped me avoid continuing to make serious mistakes here, but more importantly opened my eyes to new possibilities for the future, which I just couldn't see and would have probably taken me years to understand alone.

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on November 26, 2021, 1:26 pm

Thank you for sharing your update, and happy on your behalf for getting the payment!

This is unexpected, but in line with what you said about some people being able to play straight after they see a reaction. My frame of reference so far was, instead, "once a taker, always a taker". I am now even starting to wonder if my initial reaction was too strong.

For some individuals, it's obvious that we should exclude them from our lives.
And for some others, we should definitely include them.

Then, there are many others in the middle.
This woman would probably lean towards the exclusion.

That being said, she eventually made the payment.
And it's in a competitive, cut-throat industry.

I think it's okay to work with her in the future as long as you take upfront payment.
Now she's beginning to change her behaviour, so you can potentially test out the relationship on a small project.

But maybe she's not worth the time or trouble at your discretion.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 26, 2021, 3:16 pm

Quote from Bel on November 26, 2021, 12:05 pm

Guys: success! I was paid today.

This is unexpected, but in line with what you said about some people being able to play straight after they see a reaction. My frame of reference so far was, instead, "once a taker, always a taker". I am now even starting to wonder if my initial reaction was too strong.

Though the most important thing here is not payment, but what I could learn from your invaluable help and suggestions. Thank you Matthew for your support and precious involvement, and thank you Lucio for your invaluable suggestions, first of all about not creating open enemies and reacting proportionally: you not only helped me avoid continuing to make serious mistakes here, but more importantly opened my eyes to new possibilities for the future, which I just couldn't see and would have probably taken me years to understand alone.

Boom!

Happy and proud to hear that :).
Big win: you avoided getting embroiled in legal battles, you didn't make an outright enemy, you stood up for yourself -including in a challenging call- and you got to your goal in the smoothest way possible.

Now she has no leverage on you anymore and any future involvement is wholly up to you.
If you want, this game player is out of your life for good -or for as long as you want-.
Plus -and most of all, as you say- you learned a bunch.

Rock on, more of these to come :).

Quote from B on December 23, 2021, 12:23 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 16, 2021, 1:30 pm

Quote from Bel on November 15, 2021, 2:03 pm

She may use the opportunity to disrespect and abuse me more.
She may not answer my calls, my messages, (...) she has already implied that she wants to talk in person

I only partially agree here.

She may avoid replying, yes.
That would disempower you, true.
But it would also surface more and more what a bad person she is.

And when it comes to manipulation, you're far more power-aware now.

If anything, you may learn more about her and about her personality type.

Surfacing

I've been thinking about what you told me here above, on surfacing how bad the other person is.

When I read it the first time, I couldn't understand. Now I'm starting to think: could there be a value, a benefit for me in compelling the other person to show his/her real character?

In personal life, the answer is probably yes. Before you enter into a relationship, you want to be sure about what the other person is showing to you. I remember from the blog your example of the lamb saag and how you discovered two frenemies that way.

As a lawyer, is there a value in surfacing the "badness" of my clients? Again, probably yes, with caveats. You want to know how they are before you commit to doing much work with no assurances in place.

Is there a cost in surfacing?

However, surfacing the other person comes with costs. The more you compel the other person to show his or her real nature, the more they will avoid you in my experience. This is because people do not like to be around others who trigger their public mask to drop.

So surfacing the real nature of others means risking losing the relationship. And that's not always the best thing to do. Or, is it?

Me surfacing others

I reflected on what I did in the last year, even before I discovered your website, and I think all I did unconsciously in that year was trying to surface all the manipulators in my life more and more. I now realize I said and did things to trigger them to show their real nature, so I could be sure how I should behave and whether I should cut them off. That's why I behaved more "badly", so to speak.

And I still find myself continuing to do it with clients and other people.

The price?

A part of me wonders if I'm just going too far in surfacing people, and if the cost won't be more than the benefit.

And I also just had this thought flashing into my mind: the disconnect between some of my clients paying my invoices (or in this case even sending me a Christmas gift) on the one hand, and not answering/disconnecting from me as a person on the other hand, probably hints at a disconnect between the way they value my work and how they feel about my behavior as a person.

Meaning, while they appear to continue respecting my work, they probably started disconnecting from me as a "friend/person" because I did something that they didn't like in the context of the personal relationship. And I'm rather sure this will ultimately lead to total loss of these clients, if I haven't already lost them, because the personal side of doing business is in reality inseparable from the business side of doing business.

Specific case

This client stopped answering my calls some time ago, but now he sent me a bottle of wine for Christmas. I find that puzzling (in line with that supervisor from the other thread paying my invoice but not replying).

So I tried to call him to thank him, and he doesn't pick up. In the past I would have just sent him a text to thank him, but now I remembered that whenever he would call me, he would first message me to ask "Can I disturb you on the phone today?". So I just sent him that same message:

Me: Good morning, can I disturb you on the phone today?

He replied:

Him: Good morning attorney, I'm sorry but I couldn't call back. I will disturb you early this afternoon. Talk soon.

I tried to apply what I learned from PU and the forum, and replied with:

Me: No, I should always follow your example of asking availability. With this Covid situation work is more than before and often uninterrupted. I hope we may be able to talk in the early afternoon then. Talk soon.

Quote from B on December 23, 2021, 3:10 pm

Update: he called me back and we had a good conversation.

 

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 23, 2021, 3:10 pm

Quote from Bel on December 23, 2021, 12:23 pm

Is there a cost in surfacing?

However, surfacing the other person comes with costs. The more you compel the other person to show his or her real nature, the more they will avoid you in my experience. This is because people do not like to be around others who trigger their public mask to drop.

So surfacing the real nature of others means risking losing the relationship. And that's not always the best thing to do. Or, is it?

Yes, you're absolutely right.

Surfacing is a technique that in PU is mostly presented for whenever people are:

1. Disempowering you in very direct ways
2. Publicly disempowering you or harming your status/reputation
3. Relationships

In many other situations, including many work relationships, you want to understand the game, play with it, around it, or against it, but not surface the game/manipulation.

As a matter of fact, a good chunk of "being socially smooth" is in helping people safe face -which is a form of "validating their game", the opposite of surfacing-.

For specific situations, feel free to open a new thread -or we'd go off-topic addressing it here-.

Quote from Kellvo on December 23, 2021, 4:43 pm

Lucio, as usual, brings up superb analysis. I'll offer a tangent:

Bel, you and I are of like minds; both of us will readily confront head-on disrespectful behavior of all kinds. We take no shit and get things done. And we are absolutely dedicated to securing freedom and power in our lives.

A noble pursuit. And yet the 'dark side' of humanity is a constant; most do not want it to be surfaced, lest it ruin their image - both in the minds of others and themselves. Most people are weak; most are dependent on approval; most have to hide, especially from themselves. Strength, honesty and virtue are the exceptions, not the norm.

Most do not want to see behind the mask. And they fear those who do. Those who can look dauntlessly at their own 'darkest' natures and others', and strategically work with that, can acquire real and incredible power. That's why we're here.

Sincerely looking forward to your continued victories, Bel. :)

Quote from B on December 23, 2021, 8:52 pm

Thank you Kellvo. I'm in a period of much confusion: every day, what I thought was best the day before turns out to be less than good, and I find I could have done better. It's painful, and I've lost people who I thought were friends, and even more. But I'd rather continue making mistakes and learn than stay stuck forever.

So to your victories as well Kellvo, and talk soon.