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Importance of involvement in groups

#1 · December 16, 2021, 6:01 pm

Hello!

I have observed this phenomenon that is also described in Lucio's journal here

I think that there is not any direct reference to it in PU but in my experience it seems to be an important factor of success in social groups.

My current understanding is that no matter how well you behave according the PU techniques/mindsets if you miss the involvement part you will end up ostracized.

Thanks to PU i think that i can give an explanation on why involvement is so important:

My current interpretation is that during the process of involvement you provide value/status in so many ways to the group's members by acknowledging their frames or by laughing to their jokes or by responding to their questions or by telling jokes or saying something that raises their status/value.

If you stay silent, in the beginning they might put some effort to involve you in the group but if you are not returning that effort to them you end up ostracized.

I see some common points with the recent addition to PU regarding the golden balance in dating. I think that the golden balance can apply to socialization in general.

Have you observed the same or any other thoughts on this subject?

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#2 · December 16, 2021, 8:41 pm

Hi XH,

I agree and have observed the same. The reason, I think, is that staying silent when others talk subcommunicates that you don't care being there, or that you are different from them.

This is why shy people are eventually cast out of groups, in a self-reinforcing loop.

It can also happen in groups composed mostly of personality-disoredered people (think a narcissistic family): in these cases the normal (non personality-disordered person) has nothing to say, because the group cannot communicate on the same emotional level of a normal person, and any attempt at communication is met with an implicit disconnect. Or, of course, it can be the other way around.

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#3 · December 17, 2021, 9:26 am

When groups are forming, then it's crucial to be involved.

It's the simple principle of "people can only judge based on what you show".

And if you show nothing, you also gain nothing -including no "membership" in the group-.

But once you've shown you're a cool guy and gained status, then it's much easier to miss outings or even to leave for a long time, and then re-enter already with a high-status (or, at least, quickly regain high status).

More than keeping in touch with the group, it's important staying in touch with the leader(s) and other high-status people in the group.

That way, it doesn't matter who leaves or rejoins the group, but when you waltz back in and you're close to the leader(s), and the leader treats you as an equal, plus you act like a high-status guy, then you're already back in with a high rank, so to speak.

Quote from XH on December 16, 2021, 6:01 pm
I see some common points with the recent addition to PU regarding the golden balance in dating. I think that the golden balance can apply to socialization in general.

Bingo!

I hadn't thought about this, and you just opened a new door for me.

I'll chew on this and might add that same principle to socialization in general.

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#4 · December 17, 2021, 10:31 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 17, 2021, 9:26 am
More than keeping in touch with the group, it's important staying in touch with the leader(s) and other high-status people in the group.
That way, it doesn't matter who leaves or rejoins the group, but when you waltz back in and you're close to the leader(s), and the leader treats you as an equal, plus you act like a high-status guy, then you're already back in with a high rank, so to speak.

This could also explain something that i have also observed. Low-value members tend to put more effort to please the higher-power members and tend to ignore the other low-value members. Maybe this is an attempt to join the high-value subgroup.

Thank you both Bel and Lucio for expressing your thoughts!

#5 · December 17, 2021, 10:54 am

Quote from XH on December 17, 2021, 10:31 a
This could also explain something that i have also observed. Low-value members tend to put more effort to please the higher-power members and tend to ignore the other low-value members. Maybe this is an attempt to join the high-value subgroup.

I'm not convinced that's the reason.

If they were that socially smart and strategic, they wouldn't be low-value :).

It's probably more like an inborn tendency in everyone, and especially low-value folks, to kiss up to the powerful ones.
The powerful ones are the ones with the most to give, and they hold the key to even allowing them -or kicking them out- of the group-.

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#6 · December 17, 2021, 11:22 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on December 17, 2021, 11:22 am
If you have perceived high status upon entering the group like renowned
Speakers
Politicians
Businessmen
Scientists
Then you don't need to be involved.
Or you have some sort of known value that certain social groups will welcome you anytime into the circle.
Like expertise, connections, financial resources, information etc.
Examples:
Jordan Peterson can turn up any day on this forum, and people would respond to his post.
Because of his status and expertise.
A nightclub promoter who shows up with a lot of hot women at most nightclubs
Becoming a big client of a business
As Lucio advises, if you make friends with the leader, the leader implicitly acknowledges on behalf of the group that you can bring value to the group.
In a way, you have a known currency of value to the group.
At least supposedly.
Sometimes, you have a bad boss who brings his relative into the company who doesn't do anything for the group.
Otherwise, the people in the group need a reason to keep you in the group, and involvement is one way of demonstrating that.
My current understanding is that no matter how well you behave according the PU techniques/mindsets if you miss the involvement part you will end up ostracized.
I would say involvement is a form of social exchange with the members of the social group.
So it overlaps with the social exchange module in Power University.
Involvement suggests investment + synergy with the group.
So one needs to be attuned to the currencies of the social group.
You wouldn't bring your research on liberal policies to a politically conservative social group.
It would make sense to do that for a politically liberal social group.
My current interpretation is that during the process of involvement you provide value/status in so many ways to the group's members by acknowledging their frames or by laughing to their jokes or by responding to their questions or by telling jokes or saying something that raises their status/value.
What you mention here is that "you get it" in the social group.
You understand and participate with inside jokes, the implicit frames, etc.
You become "one of them" and indirectly show a willingness to bring value to the members and the group as a whole.

If you have perceived high status upon entering the group like renowned

Speakers
Politicians
Businessmen
Scientists

Then you don't need to be involved.

Or you have some sort of known value that certain social groups will welcome you anytime into the circle.
Like expertise, connections, financial resources, information etc.

Examples:

Jordan Peterson can turn up any day on this forum, and people would respond to his post.
Because of his status and expertise.
A nightclub promoter who shows up with a lot of hot women at most nightclubs
Becoming a big client of a business

As Lucio advises, if you make friends with the leader, the leader implicitly acknowledges on behalf of the group that you can bring value to the group.
In a way, you have a known currency of value to the group.
At least supposedly.
Sometimes, you have a bad boss who brings his relative into the company who doesn't do anything for the group.

Otherwise, the people in the group need a reason to keep you in the group, and involvement is one way of demonstrating that.

My current understanding is that no matter how well you behave according the PU techniques/mindsets if you miss the involvement part you will end up ostracized.

I would say involvement is a form of social exchange with the members of the social group.
So it overlaps with the social exchange module in Power University.

Involvement suggests investment + synergy with the group.
So one needs to be attuned to the currencies of the social group.

You wouldn't bring your research on liberal policies to a politically conservative social group.
It would make sense to do that for a politically liberal social group.

My current interpretation is that during the process of involvement you provide value/status in so many ways to the group's members by acknowledging their frames or by laughing to their jokes or by responding to their questions or by telling jokes or saying something that raises their status/value.

What you mention here is that "you get it" in the social group.
You understand and participate with inside jokes, the implicit frames, etc.
You become "one of them" and indirectly show a willingness to bring value to the members and the group as a whole.

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#7 · December 17, 2021, 7:40 pm

My current understanding is that no matter how well you behave according the PU techniques/mindsets if you miss the involvement part you will end up ostracized

it's an interesting one, because there are lot of caveats and nuance... I've certainly witnessed situations and social groups where some people limit their involvement and participation very significantly, but when they do get involved they contribute major value... often they're contributing insight or knowledge that others in the groups cannot... and as a result they are highly valued and esteemed despite relatively low involvement...

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#8 · December 18, 2021, 2:49 am

Hi ZenDancer

Agreed and it probably is a specific rather than general scenario.

I've observed this at work with senior people or people who are high calibre specialists. They can often do this because they have access to forums that others in the group don't. A lot of managers are busy bees these days - take ideas from one meeting and present them without crediting the source at another meeting. Or they represent a viewpoint that must be listened to. In the IT world you often need sign-off from Architects or Security teams or your project will be held up.

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#9 · December 18, 2021, 4:05 am

I think we are all on the same page here.

The degree of involvement you need to be successful depends on

The value you have to offer ("product")
How well known your value is to the group and especially the authority figures/leaders ("marketing")
One's status ("branding")
How accessible your value is ("competitive edge")

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