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Limiting PU access & support to 1 year for long-term viability

#31 · July 12, 2023, 5:57 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 12, 2023, 5:57 pm
Thank you for the great message, John!
And I agree with everything.
Some random notes and thoughts as I read:
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
So if I understand correctly that you feel that there is some value imbalance in your/TPM disfavor. I understand better now knowing all the work that went into it.
Exceptions always apply, and with that being said:
Yes, I do think that in more cases than not, transacting with TPM has delivered more value than the monetary exchange, BUT...
That is great, as a general principle. It's my goal and something that makes me happy and proud, and it's TPM's value to deliver as much value as possible, SO...
It only became an issue when I realized the exchange would not just leave a smaller pie, but (eventually) become negative for TPM. And when I reflected on it, it was obvious that it would be at best a missed opportunity for growth and better products and, in some worst-case scenarios that it's always good to consider, even survival.
So the question I asked myself was: "what should I do if I could sell only one single person from now on and still have TPM survive?" Answer: deliver value faster (coming), increase completion rates, make sure it improves lives, nudge to share it with friends, and... Probably not lifetime access.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think the trick for people who participate a lot in the forum is to have a feel like they have easier access to PU. In the form of a discount à longer access time or something like this.
I’ll be honest as a customer it does lower a bit the trust emotionally (already talked about it) but rationally I understand and I think you must feel that your work is adequately compensated and that the future of TPM is safer.
Thank you for sharing your honest feelings, John.
I personally see that there are elements that can both decrease and increase trust, here.
The decrease, is obvious: something that was said, was undone.
And the increase is because it was still done while seeking a win-win, in the open, explaining the motivations and rationale, and allowing everyone to feedback publicly (and even to vent).
Also, I think there are two categories here, and those in the community who have contributed may have another reason to look at this differently: when the chips were down, it was confirmed that TPM doesn't forget who helped make TPM/PU even better.
As I was telling Kavalier in the beginning:
And of course, community members and those who contribute or have contributed with ideas, case studies, feedback, etc will always be in a category of their own.
Even without going too much into details, I think you know what that means :).
I keep this vague on purpose to avoid thorny, lengthy, and potentially manipulative games of "why him yes, and me no".
Then go explain that "because "him" contributed to this website and to this same product you're asking for, which obviously also benefited you, so it's only fair that they... Etc. etc.".
The discussion around "promises" and "re-negotiating promises" is also very interesting -including for personal self-development and trying to be a straight, high-quality person-.
If anyone is interested we can discuss it in a new thread, don't wanna go too off topic here :)
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
As I’m going to PU now I have to say it massively improved and it was already top notch. The part about social strategies for success is more streamlined and easier to understand. The part about the reciprocation styles (tit for tat etc.) is really good (one caveat: the Pavlov breakdown is not as clear as the rest).
Thank you for the feedback, John!
Yes, it's improved a lot, and... It will get even better going forward.
Took a note for the Pavlov breakdown, thank you.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I’m also humbly acknowledging that changing the access motivated me to study it again. So the time limit has actually the benefits you talked about I agree. Sometimes we would like to think of us as more self-determined that we really are. So incentives work and the time limit is an incentive to finish the course.

Thank you for the feedback, John!
I've been flicking through the emails to get a feel for how people were taking it, and more than one person mentioned it:

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think what also leaves a bitter taste in some people’s mouth is that it is a transaction and we already talked about it. That also means that people are happy to contribute more or have less if they feel that the group (here half business half community) need this contribution to continue existing since they’re getting value from it. So the (duly) selective sharing of information such as showing the traffic was the right move I agree.
If people feel like TPM is making a lot of money (we don’t know it and it’s totally you’re right to keep it private in a private-owned business, not implying you should share this information) they feel less inclined to lose privileges.
Yes, I agree.
That also is also an important part of how people take certain decisions.
The "fat cat" trying to squeeze as much money from the customers never garnered too many symptathies (and for good reasons, probably :) ).
Didn't wanna share it in the beginning to avoid both an over-sharing situation and "poor me" frame that would be weak and disempowering at many levels -plus, just to be sure: TPM is not desperate right now. It is going through a not-so-easy time in that regard though, and I have to think about options in case things don't improve or get even worse-.
But after a few back and forths and with the right input, it was the right timing.
Anyway, thank you for the notes and candid feedback on this John, much appreciated!

Thank you for the great message, John!

And I agree with everything.

Some random notes and thoughts as I read:

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
So if I understand correctly that you feel that there is some value imbalance in your/TPM disfavor. I understand better now knowing all the work that went into it.

Exceptions always apply, and with that being said:

Yes, I do think that in more cases than not, transacting with TPM has delivered more value than the monetary exchange, BUT...
That is great, as a general principle. It's my goal and something that makes me happy and proud, and it's TPM's value to deliver as much value as possible, SO...
It only became an issue when I realized the exchange would not just leave a smaller pie, but (eventually) become negative for TPM. And when I reflected on it, it was obvious that it would be at best a missed opportunity for growth and better products and, in some worst-case scenarios that it's always good to consider, even survival.
So the question I asked myself was: "what should I do if I could sell only one single person from now on and still have TPM survive?" Answer: deliver value faster (coming), increase completion rates, make sure it improves lives, nudge to share it with friends, and... Probably not lifetime access.

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think the trick for people who participate a lot in the forum is to have a feel like they have easier access to PU. In the form of a discount à longer access time or something like this.
I’ll be honest as a customer it does lower a bit the trust emotionally (already talked about it) but rationally I understand and I think you must feel that your work is adequately compensated and that the future of TPM is safer.

Thank you for sharing your honest feelings, John.

I personally see that there are elements that can both decrease and increase trust, here.

The decrease, is obvious: something that was said, was undone.

And the increase is because it was still done while seeking a win-win, in the open, explaining the motivations and rationale, and allowing everyone to feedback publicly (and even to vent).

Also, I think there are two categories here, and those in the community who have contributed may have another reason to look at this differently: when the chips were down, it was confirmed that TPM doesn't forget who helped make TPM/PU even better.

As I was telling Kavalier in the beginning:

And of course, community members and those who contribute or have contributed with ideas, case studies, feedback, etc will always be in a category of their own.
Even without going too much into details, I think you know what that means :).

I keep this vague on purpose to avoid thorny, lengthy, and potentially manipulative games of "why him yes, and me no".

Then go explain that "because "him" contributed to this website and to this same product you're asking for, which obviously also benefited you, so it's only fair that they... Etc. etc.".

The discussion around "promises" and "re-negotiating promises" is also very interesting -including for personal self-development and trying to be a straight, high-quality person-.
If anyone is interested we can discuss it in a new thread, don't wanna go too off topic here :)

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
As I’m going to PU now I have to say it massively improved and it was already top notch. The part about social strategies for success is more streamlined and easier to understand. The part about the reciprocation styles (tit for tat etc.) is really good (one caveat: the Pavlov breakdown is not as clear as the rest).

Thank you for the feedback, John!

Yes, it's improved a lot, and... It will get even better going forward.

Took a note for the Pavlov breakdown, thank you.

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I’m also humbly acknowledging that changing the access motivated me to study it again. So the time limit has actually the benefits you talked about I agree. Sometimes we would like to think of us as more self-determined that we really are. So incentives work and the time limit is an incentive to finish the course.

Thank you for the feedback, John!

I've been flicking through the emails to get a feel for how people were taking it, and more than one person mentioned it:

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think what also leaves a bitter taste in some people’s mouth is that it is a transaction and we already talked about it. That also means that people are happy to contribute more or have less if they feel that the group (here half business half community) need this contribution to continue existing since they’re getting value from it. So the (duly) selective sharing of information such as showing the traffic was the right move I agree.
If people feel like TPM is making a lot of money (we don’t know it and it’s totally you’re right to keep it private in a private-owned business, not implying you should share this information) they feel less inclined to lose privileges.

Yes, I agree.

That also is also an important part of how people take certain decisions.

The "fat cat" trying to squeeze as much money from the customers never garnered too many symptathies (and for good reasons, probably :) ).

Didn't wanna share it in the beginning to avoid both an over-sharing situation and "poor me" frame that would be weak and disempowering at many levels -plus, just to be sure: TPM is not desperate right now. It is going through a not-so-easy time in that regard though, and I have to think about options in case things don't improve or get even worse-.
But after a few back and forths and with the right input, it was the right timing.

Anyway, thank you for the notes and candid feedback on this John, much appreciated!

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#32 · July 12, 2023, 6:05 pm

Correction:

”lowered” instead of “lower”

”value” instead of “privileges”

wrong choice of words.

sillygoose9845 has reacted to this post.

#33 · July 12, 2023, 10:26 pm

Hi Lucio,

Thank you for your thorough reply on my message.

Your remarks turned the message into a learning moment. Especially towards the 'jump to conclusion'.

You are right, when I do not know if something is realistically possible it is not fair to phrase a section that suggests it is possible and then move to a conclusion based on the suggestion. Even worse, I think I re-read my message at least 10 times to rephrase and catch anything I should change, and I did not catch that part.

That probably means it is something I miss more often, so I am going to pay particular attention to those structures in my messages.

Regards,

Bart

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#34 · July 13, 2023, 10:52 am

Thank you so much for the added note, Bart!

Always a pleasure being able to talk about different opinions and even opposing takes, and doing so respectfully, constructively, and potentially even changing one's decision or opinions and both coming out of it better off.

Also a great example for the forum.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#35 · July 13, 2023, 5:29 pm

Quote from John Freeman on July 13, 2023, 5:29 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 12, 2023, 5:57 pm
Thank you for the great message, John!
Thank you for your answer!
And I agree with everything.
Some random notes and thoughts as I read:
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
So if I understand correctly that you feel that there is some value imbalance in your/TPM disfavor. I understand better now knowing all the work that went into it.
Exceptions always apply, and with that being said:
Yes, I do think that in more cases than not, transacting with TPM has delivered more value than the monetary exchange, BUT...
That is great, as a general principle. It's my goal and something that makes me happy and proud, and it's TPM's value to deliver as much value as possible, SO...
It only became an issue when I realized the exchange would not just leave a smaller pie, but (eventually) become negative for TPM. And when I reflected on it, it was obvious that it would be at best a missed opportunity for growth and better products and, in some worst-case scenarios that it's always good to consider, even survival.
So the question I asked myself was: "what should I do if I could sell only one single person from now on and still have TPM survive?" Answer: deliver value faster (coming), increase completion rates, make sure it improves lives, nudge to share it with friends, and... Probably not lifetime access.
I get it.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think the trick for people who participate a lot in the forum is to have a feel like they have easier access to PU. In the form of a discount à longer access time or something like this.
I’ll be honest as a customer it does lower a bit the trust emotionally (already talked about it) but rationally I understand and I think you must feel that your work is adequately compensated and that the future of TPM is safer.
Thank you for sharing your honest feelings, John.
I personally see that there are elements that can both decrease and increase trust, here.
The decrease, is obvious: something that was said, was undone.
And the increase is because it was still done while seeking a win-win, in the open, explaining the motivations and rationale, and allowing everyone to feedback publicly (and even to vent).
True.
Also, I think there are two categories here, and those in the community who have contributed may have another reason to look at this differently: when the chips were down, it was confirmed that TPM doesn't forget who helped make TPM/PU even better.
As I was telling Kavalier in the beginning:
And of course, community members and those who contribute or have contributed with ideas, case studies, feedback, etc will always be in a category of their own.
Even without going too much into details, I think you know what that means :).
I keep this vague on purpose to avoid thorny, lengthy, and potentially manipulative games of "why him yes, and me no".
Then go explain that "because "him" contributed to this website and to this same product you're asking for, which obviously also benefited you, so it's only fair that they... Etc. etc.".
I understood that, it was quite clear, thanks! Definitely not worth going into details over these. Stating that you want the social exchange to be fair for all is enough for everyone to understand I believe.
The discussion around "promises" and "re-negotiating promises" is also very interesting -including for personal self-development and trying to be a straight, high-quality person-.
If anyone is interested we can discuss it in a new thread, don't wanna go too off topic here 🙂
Yes, can be an interesting topic.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
As I’m going to PU now I have to say it massively improved and it was already top notch. The part about social strategies for success is more streamlined and easier to understand. The part about the reciprocation styles (tit for tat etc.) is really good (one caveat: the Pavlov breakdown is not as clear as the rest).
Thank you for the feedback, John!
Yes, it's improved a lot, and... It will get even better going forward.
Took a note for the Pavlov breakdown, thank you.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I’m also humbly acknowledging that changing the access motivated me to study it again. So the time limit has actually the benefits you talked about I agree. Sometimes we would like to think of us as more self-determined that we really are. So incentives work and the time limit is an incentive to finish the course.

Thank you for the feedback, John!
I've been flicking through the emails to get a feel for how people were taking it, and more than one person mentioned it:

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think what also leaves a bitter taste in some people’s mouth is that it is a transaction and we already talked about it. That also means that people are happy to contribute more or have less if they feel that the group (here half business half community) need this contribution to continue existing since they’re getting value from it. So the (duly) selective sharing of information such as showing the traffic was the right move I agree.
If people feel like TPM is making a lot of money (we don’t know it and it’s totally you’re right to keep it private in a private-owned business, not implying you should share this information) they feel less inclined to lose privileges.
Yes, I agree.
That also is also an important part of how people take certain decisions.
The "fat cat" trying to squeeze as much money from the customers never garnered too many symptathies (and for good reasons, probably 🙂 ).
Didn't wanna share it in the beginning to avoid both an over-sharing situation and "poor me" frame that would be weak and disempowering at many levels -plus, just to be sure: TPM is not desperate right now. It is going through a not-so-easy time in that regard though, and I have to think about options in case things don't improve or get even worse-.
But after a few back and forths and with the right input, it was the right timing.
Anyway, thank you for the notes and candid feedback on this John, much appreciated!
Thank you again for your answer!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 12, 2023, 5:57 pm
Thank you for the great message, John!

Thank you for your answer!

And I agree with everything.
Some random notes and thoughts as I read:
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
So if I understand correctly that you feel that there is some value imbalance in your/TPM disfavor. I understand better now knowing all the work that went into it.
Exceptions always apply, and with that being said:
Yes, I do think that in more cases than not, transacting with TPM has delivered more value than the monetary exchange, BUT...
That is great, as a general principle. It's my goal and something that makes me happy and proud, and it's TPM's value to deliver as much value as possible, SO...
It only became an issue when I realized the exchange would not just leave a smaller pie, but (eventually) become negative for TPM. And when I reflected on it, it was obvious that it would be at best a missed opportunity for growth and better products and, in some worst-case scenarios that it's always good to consider, even survival.
So the question I asked myself was: "what should I do if I could sell only one single person from now on and still have TPM survive?" Answer: deliver value faster (coming), increase completion rates, make sure it improves lives, nudge to share it with friends, and... Probably not lifetime access.

I get it.

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think the trick for people who participate a lot in the forum is to have a feel like they have easier access to PU. In the form of a discount à longer access time or something like this.
I’ll be honest as a customer it does lower a bit the trust emotionally (already talked about it) but rationally I understand and I think you must feel that your work is adequately compensated and that the future of TPM is safer.
Thank you for sharing your honest feelings, John.
I personally see that there are elements that can both decrease and increase trust, here.
The decrease, is obvious: something that was said, was undone.
And the increase is because it was still done while seeking a win-win, in the open, explaining the motivations and rationale, and allowing everyone to feedback publicly (and even to vent).

True.

Also, I think there are two categories here, and those in the community who have contributed may have another reason to look at this differently: when the chips were down, it was confirmed that TPM doesn't forget who helped make TPM/PU even better.
As I was telling Kavalier in the beginning:
And of course, community members and those who contribute or have contributed with ideas, case studies, feedback, etc will always be in a category of their own.
Even without going too much into details, I think you know what that means :).
I keep this vague on purpose to avoid thorny, lengthy, and potentially manipulative games of "why him yes, and me no".
Then go explain that "because "him" contributed to this website and to this same product you're asking for, which obviously also benefited you, so it's only fair that they... Etc. etc.".

I understood that, it was quite clear, thanks! Definitely not worth going into details over these. Stating that you want the social exchange to be fair for all is enough for everyone to understand I believe.

The discussion around "promises" and "re-negotiating promises" is also very interesting -including for personal self-development and trying to be a straight, high-quality person-.
If anyone is interested we can discuss it in a new thread, don't wanna go too off topic here 🙂

Yes, can be an interesting topic.

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
As I’m going to PU now I have to say it massively improved and it was already top notch. The part about social strategies for success is more streamlined and easier to understand. The part about the reciprocation styles (tit for tat etc.) is really good (one caveat: the Pavlov breakdown is not as clear as the rest).
Thank you for the feedback, John!
Yes, it's improved a lot, and... It will get even better going forward.
Took a note for the Pavlov breakdown, thank you.
Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I’m also humbly acknowledging that changing the access motivated me to study it again. So the time limit has actually the benefits you talked about I agree. Sometimes we would like to think of us as more self-determined that we really are. So incentives work and the time limit is an incentive to finish the course.

Thank you for the feedback, John!
I've been flicking through the emails to get a feel for how people were taking it, and more than one person mentioned it:

Quote from John Freeman on July 12, 2023, 2:45 pm
I think what also leaves a bitter taste in some people’s mouth is that it is a transaction and we already talked about it. That also means that people are happy to contribute more or have less if they feel that the group (here half business half community) need this contribution to continue existing since they’re getting value from it. So the (duly) selective sharing of information such as showing the traffic was the right move I agree.
If people feel like TPM is making a lot of money (we don’t know it and it’s totally you’re right to keep it private in a private-owned business, not implying you should share this information) they feel less inclined to lose privileges.
Yes, I agree.
That also is also an important part of how people take certain decisions.
The "fat cat" trying to squeeze as much money from the customers never garnered too many symptathies (and for good reasons, probably 🙂 ).
Didn't wanna share it in the beginning to avoid both an over-sharing situation and "poor me" frame that would be weak and disempowering at many levels -plus, just to be sure: TPM is not desperate right now. It is going through a not-so-easy time in that regard though, and I have to think about options in case things don't improve or get even worse-.
But after a few back and forths and with the right input, it was the right timing.
Anyway, thank you for the notes and candid feedback on this John, much appreciated!

Thank you again for your answer!

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#36 · July 17, 2023, 12:25 am

Cheers @lucio

I know this has been discussed for quite some weeks but I had certain issues and had to set things in order, hence I forgot to reply to this post.

So about limiting PU to one year in order to further improve TPM as well as to make the business sustainable: I support your decision if you believe that it will make TPM grow as a business and will improve the content. I do believe that every PU alumni that does put on the work and is willing to keep learning will benefit from this decision if it accomplishes the desired results.

To be honest I wouldn't mind paying a monthly/yearly subscription with a reasonable price if it does help. In fact I think that adding paid subscriptions to TPM would be a really good idea considering that both the products and content are constantly being updated and improved. I would say that what TPM offers is more a service than a product.

I would say that a download option should be given considering we paid for lifetime access. However I understand that a download option is way to risky (piracy issues, reselling, too much time to make it that could be invested in improving TPM, etc). In this case I think that in case of adding paid subscription to access PU a discount for members who paid for life time access would tackle some important issues and would keep the exchange win-win for the most part.

Still I don't know the full picture and you're boss here. So of course, feel free to disagree if you believe another option would be better.

P.S:

About the maintaining PU access for members who contributed a lot to the website; I think it would be a very interesting discussion and "probably could" serve as good extrinsic motivation for members to contribute way more to TPM.

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#37 · July 17, 2023, 9:40 pm

Thank you for the note, Power duck!

Yes, I ultimately believe it will allow for better service and products (and not doing it would have been a major and growing drain that would have eventually turned unsustainable).

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#38 · July 28, 2023, 5:54 pm

Hi @lucio,

Navigating the whole tech layoff scenario over the last year, soon after I joined in TPM, led me to not be able to spend as much time as I would have liked. I did catch up with the articles and posts from time to time.

My thoughts on this decision, if there is one thing I have learned over last year is that a product that aims to be impactful, disruptive and extremely relevant (by being updated and heavily invested in by creators) needs to have an equally good revenue model. From that perspective, this move to more of a 'subscription' model totally makes sense.

The way I saw TPM before getting in (as a usual online course) and after has been a lot different. One of the major perceptions of typical online courses is that you tend to have a set content and a few updates here and there. But TPM as I see it is much more than that, an extremely interactive community, rather active content contributions, be it posts on books, concepts that are not just summaries, but a deep analysis that's rather thought provoking. Maybe I missed the corresponding marketing messages or maybe proper positioning, to actually portray the various aspects of TPM to not let it be misconstrued as another online course, is something to focus (I am sure you would have already planned for it).

I wrote to support and got an extension almost immediately and I believe the 'downloading existing version' isnt operational yet. It will make sense to have something like that in the sense of freezing a version online rather than an offline download (offline downloads never seem to be a good approach for content based products). Do you happen to think on lines of building a whole subscription model? say for varying time frames, may be the longer one opts in the more discount they get ?

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#39 · July 28, 2023, 10:54 pm

Hello Anantha,

Thank you for the note, kind words, feedback, and ideas man, much appreciated!

Yep, you're right, today me totally agree with me.
It just took me a while to reach that understanding :).

As for the marketing message, you're absolutely right, marketing has generally lagged far behind product around here :).

And as for these two:

Quote from Anantha Sairam on July 28, 2023, 5:54 pm
I wrote to support and got an extension almost immediately

Glad to hear that!

Hopefully my constant nagging that "we love our customers and we don't let the people we love wait" is getting through :).

Quote from Anantha Sairam on July 28, 2023, 5:54 pm
and I believe the 'downloading existing version' isnt operational yet. It will make sense to have something like that in the sense of freezing a version online rather than an offline download (offline downloads never seem to be a good approach for content based products). Do you happen to think on lines of building a whole subscription model? say for varying time frames, may be the longer one opts in the more discount they get ?

Yes you're right the "download existing version" or "freezing existing version in time" isn't operational yet -and it may be difficult to pull off in the future as well, including the fact there are endless things to always do of course-.

As for thinking aboud a "whole subscription model"... Well now I do, thanks to you :).

It's really a great idea, thank you man🙏.
I added it now to the list of things to explore, and if hopefully it's not too complex to apply, I'll definitely go for it.

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#40 · August 3, 2023, 7:13 pm

Well. this is a move I understand, but if so, the price seems high, considering the fact that the course seems to contain a high quantity of the content that is already free on the site.

The option to download the course sounds good, though it has the drawbacks of possible piracy, though a highly ambitious person would have done it before too.

Maybe you could just stop access to the forums? I know a Romanian guy who was a seduction course, and for people who bought the "for life" version, he just stops their access to the forum facebook group and whatsapp group, but they have access to the material.

What do you think?

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