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Sister power moving after sharing dating preferences.
Today my sister, my mother and I were having a conversation regarding marriage and dating while having lunch. The conversation got a bit confrontative between my sister and my mother since my mother was trying to assume a teacher role, and my sister rejected it in a rude way. After some talking I said the following:
P.D: well I do prefer a girl that earns less than me rather than the same.
Sister while smiling: that's some insecurity you have there hahaha.
P.D:Â Â a woman who earns the same is more likely to cheat and may want man who earns way more, just as you said before that you want someone who earns more.
Sister: of course. (Sounded like a proud taker)
P.D: also I prefer being a breadwinner and having my wife taking care of the kids.
Sister: yeah hahaha, so later she kicks you in the ass and takes your money after divorcing you.
P.D: that's why I'm not getting married, the former was something I would like to do don't think I will be able to.
......
Later while I'm packing my things:
Sister after I tell something to my mother: mom don't listen to him you know how he is.
P.D: sister if you wanna tell me something I prefer if you say it to me directly.
Sister: did you read that in that course of yours? You have lots of fantasies in your head, hahaha.
P.D: stop wasting time and put your things in the bag, later you'll say that we're late.
Sister: yeah, whatever you say.
There are many mistakes I committed here, but also great hindsight that I've learned.
Mistakes:
- Being completely open about darker desires/thoughts without the skills/context/conviction/argument necessary to come across as high quality/stand behind them.
- Follow her frame.
- Tell my sister about PU without being sure that I can trust her.
Hindsight:
- I can identify most power moves, but it's harder for me to pull power moves to attack back takers, more specifically: judge power moves and covert frames.
- Judge power moves and assuming subtler frames was effective to change the power dynamic after my sister power moved.
- One upping to gain power after being attacked is less effective than the former options. (When one wants to be subtle and not too obvious)
How could I have handled it?:
P.D: I prefer a woman that ....
Sister: that's some insecurity you have there hahahah.
P.D: you're wrong on that. Not insecurity, but rather preference, you want a guy that earns the same as you or more and can't even perceive dating someone who earns less. Just as you want a man that brings lots of money I would prefer having a woman that is grateful for having a man that earns big.
Most likely her response would be:
Sister: ahh so you can feel needed right? Hahahah.
P.D: you want money, I prefer a fulfilling relationship.
Overall, thinking more before I speak, speak slower, and bearing in mind what is more likely to receive criticism to prevent situations like this from happening.
Do you guys have any feedback on how I could've handled this?
I'll have a quick chip in. First I think you did great. Just by calling our her BS. And nobody is going to speak perfectly in the heat of battle. I love the line about preferring her to be direct. I have similar attitudes in my sisters, mixture of entitlement and feminisist when it suits them.  They'll tell you off for not being a gentleman 5 minutes after going on a patriarchy rant.
I have to be careful in that I'm naturally good at comebacks but that's the worst coz you end up going punch for punch. Still better than being a punching bag but not much better. I have this doc in my notes called 'One default thng' from PU and my forum posts and a few reddit subs - aka safe generally applicable moves.
First what you said is what Lucio says. Try and cover up and not be drawn into shit fights. The master principle I think of is always keep some deniablity. If you don't have a fixed position that position can't be flanked! So in family context it might be going philsophers and saying some guys prefer to earn a bit more. Then your sister can't corner you on that. If she tries "...I said some guys" - I'm not some guy I'm your lovely brother  Exact words don't matter - just keep some deniability.
Another Lucio gem is call out the situation directly. When she says 'you know what he's like' that's a direct put-down. Not nice. So call her out on being nasty.
I'd go with 'hey not cool, be nice we're family (if you can remmber doing the non-verbable of spreading yr arms in a big group hug gesture would work)
Up, up, up. Becoming higher quality, the sister does not like it, feels threatens.
Sister: did you read that in that course of yours? You have lots of fantasies in your head, hahaha.
She's helping you there. She's right, studying PU, you're flying higher. As Dustin Poirier would say:
Keep working, alright?
Becoming a beast... Burying the haters with our results.
Might comment more later.
Of course, agree 100% with Transitioned.
Thanks for the response Transitioned.
I think that the strategy of always having a way out so they can't corner you will be very useful to give opinions, in fact I think it can be used to test someone's character/compatibility with oneself:
P.D to friend: some people say that women are more manipulative and nastier than men on average, what do you think about them. (This can be a power move depending on context though)
Friend: those men are the reason why we live in a patriarchy.
Or
Friend: I can't believe that you think that, you are such a horrible person.
P.D: I never said that I think that way, I would appreciate if you listened before rudely trying to guess things about my character.
This strategy would have saved my ass on plenty on occassions when sharing less socially acceptable thoughts/opinions, so thanks. Of course with family will come way more in handy since I spend more time with them.
I'd go with 'hey not cool, be nice we're family (if you can remmber doing the non-verbable of spreading yr arms in a big group hug gesture would work)
Thanks for that example too, it's not something overly complex but sometimes the most obvious things are missed, I struggle a bit when I think how I can set collaborative frames, it's something I'm working on.
Thanks John.
Man those 2 are badass, they beat the shit of each other and acknowledge each others strength.
Thinking better about it, I could’ve responded this:
Indeed. What's wrong? You dont like honest communication?
As you say, no need to defend from it.
Hello Power Duck,
slight misunderstanding (we have to work on our communication :D ). My responsibility was that I communicated on a very short answer. So you had to infer some from my message.
I meant that on an enough long timeline, your hard work will pay and beat all the haters and the naysayers. So it's about studying self-development and flying higher. I quote Lucio (if not mistaken) saying that it's not one single interaction that makes or break you. So the (little) improvements we make daily help us to compound on the long term. You're ok to lose one battle to win the war.
P.D: well I do prefer a girl that earns less than me rather than the same.
Sister while smiling: that's some insecurity you have there hahaha.
P.D:Â Â a woman who earns the same is more likely to cheat and may want man who earns way more, just as you said before that you want someone who earns more.
Here she got you justifying yourself. From there you're down, she's up. She trapped you.
Sister: of course. (Sounded like a proud taker)
P.D: also I prefer being a breadwinner and having my wife taking care of the kids.
More justifying
Sister: yeah hahaha, so later she kicks you in the ass and takes your money after divorcing you.
P.D: that's why I'm not getting married, the former was something I would like to do don't think I will be abl$
More justifying. So she's having her little fun by keeping you chasing her approval.
Here you actually keep investing (to unconsciously win her approval), so she's playing the mouse and you the cat. So it becomes over-investing I believe. Here, I would have turned the tables. Or make her invest. Along with surfacing:
P.D: well I do prefer a girl that earns less than me rather than the same.
Sister while smiling: that's some insecurity you have there hahaha.
P.D: why do you say that?
To stop the momentum and have her invest/justify.
Being completely open about darker desires/thoughts without the skills/context/conviction/argument necessary to come across as high quality/stand behind them.
Yes and no. 2 aspects:
1. Context: I'm not convinced a conversation with your sister and mother the best situation to share your sexual strategy. So I would also reflect on boundaries in my own family.
2. Self-honesty: I'm not sure you were honest with your dark desires. First, these are not dark desires, these are your desires. Very different. So regarding one's desires if one is honest with oneself one would say: "This is what I want and I don't care what you think about". But there's a component of not approval seeking as well. So up to you to know what's truest for you.
Follow her frame.
Agree with you. She's had influence over you for a long time whatever the reason (she's the oldest, she's a woman, she's got parents' approval, etc. or all of them). So it's normal that it's challenging to challenge her (pun not intended).
Tell my sister about PU without being sure that I can trust her.
Agree with you. The way I see it, PU is our "safe space" (even if I don't like the term) or let's say private space. So I think it goes back to boundaries: who's allowed in and who's not allowed in? Our family does not own us nor have any and all rights on us. (my words not yours).
Thanks for the response John.
P.D: why do you say that?
Man, I had forgotten about that technique, thanks, I used to say that when facing takers/assholes and did wonders, might have to start writing the techniques I learn in a note app as transitioned does.
Context: I'm not convinced a conversation with your sister and mother the best situation to share your sexual strategy. So I would also reflect on boundaries in my own family.
It's the first time I've heard about the concept of boundaries regarding conversations with families. And if it isn't the first time it is the 2/3 time, but yes, I have to reflect about that, I suppose it's what happens when no one teaches you about boundaries, you have to learn about them yourself (and/or with the help of others :) )
Agree with you. She's had influence over you for a long time whatever the reason (she's the oldest, she's a woman, she's got parents' approval, etc. or all of them). So it's normal that it's challenging to challenge her (not intended).
I would say that the influence she has over me is because I sometimes chase her attention: since we're family we're "supposed" to talk and build each other up, however she barely wants to talk and prefers staring at her phone or talking with her class mates. My skills now surpass hers for the most part, but yes in the past she used to put me down and caused me many insecurities.
Our family does not own us nor have any and all rights on us. (my words not yours).
Fully agree on that. A frame that I usually have to fight for better or worse.
Cheers.
I would say that the influence she has over me is because I sometimes chase her attention: since we're family we're "supposed" to talk and build each other up, however she barely wants to talk and prefers staring at her phone or talking with her class mates. My skills now surpass hers for the most part, but yes in the past she used to put me down and caused me many insecurities.
I'm not surprised you say that. I'm aware you live in Spain so there is a cultural component: the norm. Just like in Morocco the norm is: family first. It's all good. We all live in cultures with cultural biases. The option we have is to go beyond those cultural norms or re-interpret/re-invent them: "yes family is important. It's my most important value BUT this how I choose to live it." As I said, it's the same for all of us in our respective cultures so we're all on the same level.
Thank you for being so open to ideas.
Man the more power aware I am the more I interpret things in multiple ways.
since we're family we're "supposed" to talk and build each other up
I've just realized that this can come across as a teacher frame and even as smart alecky. To clarify so theres not any misunderstanding, quote (" ") is something I sometimes use when I want to convey air quotes, this.
Basically I don't buy the "family always comes first", just like the whole "friendship and love thing" I think that for the most part is another big bs (there are exceptions of course)
Apologies in case it came across as one upping, should be more clear considering this isn't face to face communication.
P.S:
Part of the reason for me realising that, was that I saw this:
Thank you for being so open to ideas.
As a power move (although it could be my imagination, lack of power skills in certain aspects), if it was due to any power move I may have made by accident, it's cool. Although I'm ok too if you prefer to point it out directly.
If it wasn't intended to serve as self defense it's cool too.
Wanted to say that to prevent misunderstandings. (And also because one can have straight talk with most folks here :)Â )
To me, and I could be wrong, it’s not a power move. It’s a compliment and I thank you back. So I actually give you credit in my opinion.
A power move would disempower you. Here I empower you. I also express my gratitude so it means I’m acknowledging you as giving in the social exchange just as you acknowledged me as giving.
I’m curious: in what way do you perceive it as a power move?
