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"They fuck more than you" power move

#1 · October 14, 2023, 12:54 am

Quote from John Freeman on October 14, 2023, 12:54 am
Hello TPM community,
I'm putting this one in power dynamics rather than "self-defense" but feel free to move it. The reason is that I don't see how to classify it under a general pattern that could be codified as a common power move. So I think it's more value-adding here as it's a more complex case.
On my birthday evening (yes power moves tend to happen on my birthday + alcohol) we went to the restaurant with some friends and my sister. We were 13 so far so good. We go to my friend's bar. Downstairs a band is playing and they look like 17-19 years old rock/metal band. It reminded of me when I was playing bass in a band at their age.
I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:
Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)
My sexual/romantic life is an insecurity of mine (finally found time to write as I told you Power Duck). I'm a lover: a sensitive guy who loves to love women so it's a bit of a pain point in my life. So it hurt my feelings that my friend and my sister would make fun of me about that.
My sister is sitting outside smoking (same bar, same outside as here a year ago). I go and tell her (doing my best to remember):
Me: You know inside when you told her "they fuck more than you do". I think it's not cool from you. I would like you not to do it again please.
Her: Ok.. I did not know you would take it like that
Me: Well you're supposed to be on my team. In public you're supposed to support me and cheer for me. I would never tell something negative on you publicly.
Her: it was a joke
Me: [proceeds to tell her the difference between a joke and an attack (thanks Lucio), that not fucking is considered negative in our society so it's making fun of me. Especially knowing it's true.]
Her: Ok, I won't do it again
Me: Thanks, (goes back inside still a bit angry, I think the alcohol does lower my threshold for agression. I was assertive and calm but still felt anger when I said all this).
I go back inside and we decide to get some drinks. I think about my sister and go and ask her if she wants something. She says no and I feel something's wrong.
I won't write the whole dialog as it was 20 min conversation. I'll write the main events.
Her: [says that if she can't be herself/spontaneous then it's no fun. That it's always like that with me. That I'm thin-skinned]
Me: [says that she can be herself/spontaneous that it's more about respect.]
Then she tried every manipulation in the book: left, right, left, right. Tried to change topic, tried to guilt me, tried to shame me, etc. Maybe around 10 attacks in a row.
I countered. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.
I felt like I was Lucio. Like I could see the social matrix. She said something -> I categorized it and defended: "We were not talking about this we were talking about that", "that's not what I said I said this", etc.. She also refered to what happened a year ago: "You did the same with this girl". I laughed: "you're not doing that are you?" (old file technique). Now that I think of it she's the one who actually did the same: insult me on my birthday.
She also asked me why I did not say more to my other friend. I said that I did by repeating the sentence I said. And that by telling her that I did not like it it was actually a mark of respect. That some of my friends play sometimes power moves but I let it slip because I don't care enough about them.
She was soooo pissed off when she tried to shame me: her face!! A mask of anger and rage!! I touched her arm: "no need to shout, no need to shout" as I stayed calm (she's still conditioned by my family to shout when having a conflict).
I could not remember exactly all I said as it was a lot and it was maybe in the span of 1-2 minutes. It was intense mentally but not emotionally. It felt like a video game on crack.
Then she said as she calmed down after I countered every power move:
Her: why is it a problem if I say that then?
Me: because I'm suffering to be single.
Here there was no strategy. I was honest and vulnerable. And I realized she was not aware of it/or gaslighting.
Her: I thought you being a doctor and good looking guy it would not be the case.
Me: [proceeds to explain to her how the dating game is tough nowadays with dating apps and social media for guys. She was sincerely interested. She's in a couple for about 17 years or more so she's never done that. I tell her that apparently nowadays it's not enough. And maybe also my type is not working]
Her: [she tells me that actually it's true that some of her girlfriend swipe left on arab-looking guys. Also tells me the kind of thing they swipe left to, proving my point: picture with a cat -> left, etc.
Then the following sentence I think it's a power move, she says repeatedly:
Her: I did not know! I did not know you were suffering!
That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.
I think it was a power move as she said it repeatedly. In French we say: "stir the knife in the wound" (remuer le couteau dans la plaie) to mean that one is insisting on a topic that is painful. And it's socially ungraceful in my culture (and in others I assume).
At this moment I was holding my hand in my head and was baffled that she could not imagine I could suffer from a lack of a romantic/sexual relationship. That's why I think it's gaslighting here (or stupidity so more gaslighting I believe). I was having the body language (remember I'm half-drunk at this time) of "For the love of god hail mary the angels and hell included I CANNOT BELIEVE IT". So yeah very expressive BL of disbelief.
Now the good part. Actually this could have been the moment when we spoke about the challenges of dating as a modern guy. Anyway it does not matter in this particular case the timing. What happened is that after this conflict, we actually bonded as she calmed down. She said she's not going to insult me anymore on a calm tone. She then came to my place as she lives far away and I hosted her. Before she went to sleep I gave her advice as a pediatrician for about an hour about her 14 years old kid. She said the next day she's going to apply those. It's a tough situation: they lost control.
So as you can imagine writing this I was very proud of me. I think it's one of those times where I could measure my progress from one year ago.
I thought sincerely: I would have liked Lucio to see me.
I asserted my boundaries, I detected emotions in her, I addressed them, I defended against about 10 power moves in a row, I was vulnerable/honest, I bonded with my sister, I hosted her, I gave her advice she took and listened to and I had my boundaries respected.
So another success for TPM! So for doubters (if any left here). This knowledge works.
As I told Power Duck, the trick is the time scale for progress on this stuff. It's in years. So I'm looking forward to the next year and going to the next level. Sometimes I'm thinking: where will I be in 10 years? The sky is the limit if I continue to study this knowledge on a daily basis.
So thank you very much all of you, I owe my success largely to you! You are my teachers and my brothers-in-arms. My gratitude is of a much higher magnitude than my pride in this success.
More successes to share are coming soon :)
PS: it's not my most structured post I admit. It would have been if I would have written the following day but other priorities.
PSS: went for a scuba diving baptem the following day. She does it as well and she proposed me to go together some day. As a reminder before it was very difficult for me to get in touch. Oh by the way, now she answers to my phone calls. So as Lucio said. It's all about power. Like for my birthday. Last year we were about 15 people. But some of them were friends of friends or regulars from the bar. Here they were 13 real friends. So I see my power increased as well. When we were at the bar (this is for you Lucio: where your student is at right now): they were chanting my name as we were toasting. And they were really happy to chant my name. I took it with humility but still: it's not every day a group of 7-8 people chant my name with happiness. Yeah it's my birthday but still. I think it showed love.

Hello TPM community,

I'm putting this one in power dynamics rather than "self-defense" but feel free to move it. The reason is that I don't see how to classify it under a general pattern that could be codified as a common power move. So I think it's more value-adding here as it's a more complex case.

On my birthday evening (yes power moves tend to happen on my birthday + alcohol) we went to the restaurant with some friends and my sister. We were 13 so far so good. We go to my friend's bar. Downstairs a band is playing and they look like 17-19 years old rock/metal band. It reminded of me when I was playing bass in a band at their age.

I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:

Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)

My sexual/romantic life is an insecurity of mine (finally found time to write as I told you Power Duck). I'm a lover: a sensitive guy who loves to love women so it's a bit of a pain point in my life. So it hurt my feelings that my friend and my sister would make fun of me about that.

My sister is sitting outside smoking (same bar, same outside as here a year ago). I go and tell her (doing my best to remember):

Me: You know inside when you told her "they fuck more than you do". I think it's not cool from you. I would like you not to do it again please.
Her: Ok.. I did not know you would take it like that
Me: Well you're supposed to be on my team. In public you're supposed to support me and cheer for me. I would never tell something negative on you publicly.
Her: it was a joke
Me: [proceeds to tell her the difference between a joke and an attack (thanks Lucio), that not fucking is considered negative in our society so it's making fun of me. Especially knowing it's true.]
Her: Ok, I won't do it again
Me: Thanks, (goes back inside still a bit angry, I think the alcohol does lower my threshold for agression. I was assertive and calm but still felt anger when I said all this).

I go back inside and we decide to get some drinks. I think about my sister and go and ask her if she wants something. She says no and I feel something's wrong.

I won't write the whole dialog as it was 20 min conversation. I'll write the main events.

Her: [says that if she can't be herself/spontaneous then it's no fun. That it's always like that with me. That I'm thin-skinned]
Me: [says that she can be herself/spontaneous that it's more about respect.]

Then she tried every manipulation in the book: left, right, left, right. Tried to change topic, tried to guilt me, tried to shame me, etc. Maybe around 10 attacks in a row.

I countered. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.

I felt like I was Lucio. Like I could see the social matrix. She said something -> I categorized it and defended: "We were not talking about this we were talking about that", "that's not what I said I said this", etc.. She also refered to what happened a year ago: "You did the same with this girl". I laughed: "you're not doing that are you?" (old file technique). Now that I think of it she's the one who actually did the same: insult me on my birthday.

She also asked me why I did not say more to my other friend. I said that I did by repeating the sentence I said. And that by telling her that I did not like it it was actually a mark of respect. That some of my friends play sometimes power moves but I let it slip because I don't care enough about them.

She was soooo pissed off when she tried to shame me: her face!! A mask of anger and rage!! I touched her arm: "no need to shout, no need to shout" as I stayed calm (she's still conditioned by my family to shout when having a conflict).

I could not remember exactly all I said as it was a lot and it was maybe in the span of 1-2 minutes. It was intense mentally but not emotionally. It felt like a video game on crack.

Then she said as she calmed down after I countered every power move:

Her: why is it a problem if I say that then?
Me: because I'm suffering to be single.

Here there was no strategy. I was honest and vulnerable. And I realized she was not aware of it/or gaslighting.

Her: I thought you being a doctor and good looking guy it would not be the case.
Me: [proceeds to explain to her how the dating game is tough nowadays with dating apps and social media for guys. She was sincerely interested. She's in a couple for about 17 years or more so she's never done that. I tell her that apparently nowadays it's not enough. And maybe also my type is not working]
Her: [she tells me that actually it's true that some of her girlfriend swipe left on arab-looking guys. Also tells me the kind of thing they swipe left to, proving my point: picture with a cat -> left, etc.

Then the following sentence I think it's a power move, she says repeatedly:

Her: I did not know! I did not know you were suffering!

That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.

I think it was a power move as she said it repeatedly. In French we say: "stir the knife in the wound" (remuer le couteau dans la plaie) to mean that one is insisting on a topic that is painful. And it's socially ungraceful in my culture (and in others I assume).

At this moment I was holding my hand in my head and was baffled that she could not imagine I could suffer from a lack of a romantic/sexual relationship. That's why I think it's gaslighting here (or stupidity so more gaslighting I believe). I was having the body language (remember I'm half-drunk at this time) of "For the love of god hail mary the angels and hell included I CANNOT BELIEVE IT". So yeah very expressive BL of disbelief.

Now the good part. Actually this could have been the moment when we spoke about the challenges of dating as a modern guy. Anyway it does not matter in this particular case the timing. What happened is that after this conflict, we actually bonded as she calmed down. She said she's not going to insult me anymore on a calm tone. She then came to my place as she lives far away and I hosted her. Before she went to sleep I gave her advice as a pediatrician for about an hour about her 14 years old kid. She said the next day she's going to apply those. It's a tough situation: they lost control.

So as you can imagine writing this I was very proud of me. I think it's one of those times where I could measure my progress from one year ago.

I thought sincerely: I would have liked Lucio to see me.

I asserted my boundaries, I detected emotions in her, I addressed them, I defended against about 10 power moves in a row, I was vulnerable/honest, I bonded with my sister, I hosted her, I gave her advice she took and listened to and I had my boundaries respected.

So another success for TPM! So for doubters (if any left here). This knowledge works.

As I told Power Duck, the trick is the time scale for progress on this stuff. It's in years. So I'm looking forward to the next year and going to the next level. Sometimes I'm thinking: where will I be in 10 years? The sky is the limit if I continue to study this knowledge on a daily basis.

So thank you very much all of you, I owe my success largely to you! You are my teachers and my brothers-in-arms. My gratitude is of a much higher magnitude than my pride in this success.

More successes to share are coming soon :)

PS: it's not my most structured post I admit. It would have been if I would have written the following day but other priorities.

PSS: went for a scuba diving baptem the following day. She does it as well and she proposed me to go together some day. As a reminder before it was very difficult for me to get in touch. Oh by the way, now she answers to my phone calls. So as Lucio said. It's all about power. Like for my birthday. Last year we were about 15 people. But some of them were friends of friends or regulars from the bar. Here they were 13 real friends. So I see my power increased as well. When we were at the bar (this is for you Lucio: where your student is at right now): they were chanting my name as we were toasting. And they were really happy to chant my name. I took it with humility but still: it's not every day a group of 7-8 people chant my name with happiness. Yeah it's my birthday but still. I think it showed love.

Mercutio, Ali Scarlett and 5 other users have reacted to this post.

#2 · October 14, 2023, 1:41 am

Man, honestly, it's heartwarming to read this. I'm glad this situation turned out so well 🙂.

Wanted to write that before going off to sleep. Will keep writing more things tomorrow.

Cheers.

Ali Scarlett, Matthew Whitewood and 4 other users have reacted to this post.

#3 · October 14, 2023, 1:49 am

Thank you, Brother. :)

(Good guys can win. I not only believe it but I see it now.)

Ali Scarlett, Matthew Whitewood and 4 other users have reacted to this post.

#4 · October 15, 2023, 11:03 am

Quote from Power Duck on October 15, 2023, 11:03 am
Quote from John Freeman on October 14, 2023, 12:54 am
Hello TPM community,
I'm putting this one in power dynamics rather than "self-defense" but feel free to move it. The reason is that I don't see how to classify it under a general pattern that could be codified as a common power move. So I think it's more value-adding here as it's a more complex case.
On my birthday evening (yes power moves tend to happen on my birthday + alcohol) we went to the restaurant with some friends and my sister. We were 13 so far so good. We go to my friend's bar. Downstairs a band is playing and they look like 17-19 years old rock/metal band. It reminded of me when I was playing bass in a band at their age.
I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:
Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)
My sexual/romantic life is an insecurity of mine (finally found time to write as I told you Power Duck). I'm a lover: a sensitive guy who loves to love women so it's a bit of a pain point in my life. So it hurt my feelings that my friend and my sister would make fun of me about that.
My sister is sitting outside smoking (same bar, same outside as here a year ago). I go and tell her (doing my best to remember):
Me: You know inside when you told her "they fuck more than you do". I think it's not cool from you. I would like you not to do it again please.
Her: Ok.. I did not know you would take it like that
Me: Well you're supposed to be on my team. In public you're supposed to support me and cheer for me. I would never tell something negative on you publicly.
Her: it was a joke
Me: [proceeds to tell her the difference between a joke and an attack (thanks Lucio), that not fucking is considered negative in our society so it's making fun of me. Especially knowing it's true.]
Her: Ok, I won't do it again
Me: Thanks, (goes back inside still a bit angry, I think the alcohol does lower my threshold for agression. I was assertive and calm but still felt anger when I said all this).
I go back inside and we decide to get some drinks. I think about my sister and go and ask her if she wants something. She says no and I feel something's wrong.
I won't write the whole dialog as it was 20 min conversation. I'll write the main events.
Her: [says that if she can't be herself/spontaneous then it's no fun. That it's always like that with me. That I'm thin-skinned]
Me: [says that she can be herself/spontaneous that it's more about respect.]
Then she tried every manipulation in the book: left, right, left, right. Tried to change topic, tried to guilt me, tried to shame me, etc. Maybe around 10 attacks in a row.
I countered. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.
I felt like I was Lucio. Like I could see the social matrix. She said something -> I categorized it and defended: "We were not talking about this we were talking about that", "that's not what I said I said this", etc.. She also refered to what happened a year ago: "You did the same with this girl". I laughed: "you're not doing that are you?" (old file technique). Now that I think of it she's the one who actually did the same: insult me on my birthday.
She also asked me why I did not say more to my other friend. I said that I did by repeating the sentence I said. And that by telling her that I did not like it it was actually a mark of respect. That some of my friends play sometimes power moves but I let it slip because I don't care enough about them.
She was soooo pissed off when she tried to shame me: her face!! A mask of anger and rage!! I touched her arm: "no need to shout, no need to shout" as I stayed calm (she's still conditioned by my family to shout when having a conflict).
I could not remember exactly all I said as it was a lot and it was maybe in the span of 1-2 minutes. It was intense mentally but not emotionally. It felt like a video game on crack.
Then she said as she calmed down after I countered every power move:
Her: why is it a problem if I say that then?
Me: because I'm suffering to be single.
Here there was no strategy. I was honest and vulnerable. And I realized she was not aware of it/or gaslighting.
Her: I thought you being a doctor and good looking guy it would not be the case.
Me: [proceeds to explain to her how the dating game is tough nowadays with dating apps and social media for guys. She was sincerely interested. She's in a couple for about 17 years or more so she's never done that. I tell her that apparently nowadays it's not enough. And maybe also my type is not working]
Her: [she tells me that actually it's true that some of her girlfriend swipe left on arab-looking guys. Also tells me the kind of thing they swipe left to, proving my point: picture with a cat -> left, etc.
Then the following sentence I think it's a power move, she says repeatedly:
Her: I did not know! I did not know you were suffering!
That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.
I think it was a power move as she said it repeatedly. In French we say: "stir the knife in the wound" (remuer le couteau dans la plaie) to mean that one is insisting on a topic that is painful. And it's socially ungraceful in my culture (and in others I assume).
At this moment I was holding my hand in my head and was baffled that she could not imagine I could suffer from a lack of a romantic/sexual relationship. That's why I think it's gaslighting here (or stupidity so more gaslighting I believe). I was having the body language (remember I'm half-drunk at this time) of "For the love of god hail mary the angels and hell included I CANNOT BELIEVE IT". So yeah very expressive BL of disbelief.
Now the good part. Actually this could have been the moment when we spoke about the challenges of dating as a modern guy. Anyway it does not matter in this particular case the timing. What happened is that after this conflict, we actually bonded as she calmed down. She said she's not going to insult me anymore on a calm tone. She then came to my place as she lives far away and I hosted her. Before she went to sleep I gave her advice as a pediatrician for about an hour about her 14 years old kid. She said the next day she's going to apply those. It's a tough situation: they lost control.
So as you can imagine writing this I was very proud of me. I think it's one of those times where I could measure my progress from one year ago.
I thought sincerely: I would have liked Lucio to see me.
I asserted my boundaries, I detected emotions in her, I addressed them, I defended against about 10 power moves in a row, I was vulnerable/honest, I bonded with my sister, I hosted her, I gave her advice she took and listened to and I had my boundaries respected.
So another success for TPM! So for doubters (if any left here). This knowledge works.
As I told Power Duck, the trick is the time scale for progress on this stuff. It's in years. So I'm looking forward to the next year and going to the next level. Sometimes I'm thinking: where will I be in 10 years? The sky is the limit if I continue to study this knowledge on a daily basis.
So thank you very much all of you, I owe my success largely to you! You are my teachers and my brothers-in-arms. My gratitude is of a much higher magnitude than my pride in this success.
More successes to share are coming soon 🙂
PS: it's not my most structured post I admit. It would have been if I would have written the following day but other priorities.
PSS: went for a scuba diving baptem the following day. She does it as well and she proposed me to go together some day. As a reminder before it was very difficult for me to get in touch. Oh by the way, now she answers to my phone calls. So as Lucio said. It's all about power. Like for my birthday. Last year we were about 15 people. But some of them were friends of friends or regulars from the bar. Here they were 13 real friends. So I see my power increased as well. When we were at the bar (this is for you Lucio: where your student is at right now): they were chanting my name as we were toasting. And they were really happy to chant my name. I took it with humility but still: it's not every day a group of 7-8 people chant my name with happiness. Yeah it's my birthday but still. I think it showed love.
I suppose those are recent events, in that case.... Happy birthday man!
It's incredible what power dynamics can accomplish, I don't personally know your sister but power dynamics definetely play an important role (if not the most) in such a change, of course I also think that she enjoyed her time with her brother and wants to spend more time with him.
About insecurities and finding a partner. I think that it's always important to understand that love for the most part is based on power, culture and mental health. You've probably read more about this matter than me, so you may know better. But overall what I want to say is that even if one is one of the coolest and most amazing guys could end up without the fulfilling relationship he wants if he doesn't "click" for the girl. I can't tell the future, but I can tell you're one of the coolest and most amazing guys I've known. I recall reading that you saw people weren't appreciating what you bring to the table, well that's their loss.
Nothing you don't probably know here, but if no one appreciates a person for what he is and what he brings that person is better off alone.
That's how I like to see modern dating struggles, it's quite liberating 🙂.
Cheers man.

Quote from John Freeman on October 14, 2023, 12:54 am
Hello TPM community,
I'm putting this one in power dynamics rather than "self-defense" but feel free to move it. The reason is that I don't see how to classify it under a general pattern that could be codified as a common power move. So I think it's more value-adding here as it's a more complex case.
On my birthday evening (yes power moves tend to happen on my birthday + alcohol) we went to the restaurant with some friends and my sister. We were 13 so far so good. We go to my friend's bar. Downstairs a band is playing and they look like 17-19 years old rock/metal band. It reminded of me when I was playing bass in a band at their age.
I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:
Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)
My sexual/romantic life is an insecurity of mine (finally found time to write as I told you Power Duck). I'm a lover: a sensitive guy who loves to love women so it's a bit of a pain point in my life. So it hurt my feelings that my friend and my sister would make fun of me about that.
My sister is sitting outside smoking (same bar, same outside as here a year ago). I go and tell her (doing my best to remember):
Me: You know inside when you told her "they fuck more than you do". I think it's not cool from you. I would like you not to do it again please.
Her: Ok.. I did not know you would take it like that
Me: Well you're supposed to be on my team. In public you're supposed to support me and cheer for me. I would never tell something negative on you publicly.
Her: it was a joke
Me: [proceeds to tell her the difference between a joke and an attack (thanks Lucio), that not fucking is considered negative in our society so it's making fun of me. Especially knowing it's true.]
Her: Ok, I won't do it again
Me: Thanks, (goes back inside still a bit angry, I think the alcohol does lower my threshold for agression. I was assertive and calm but still felt anger when I said all this).
I go back inside and we decide to get some drinks. I think about my sister and go and ask her if she wants something. She says no and I feel something's wrong.
I won't write the whole dialog as it was 20 min conversation. I'll write the main events.
Her: [says that if she can't be herself/spontaneous then it's no fun. That it's always like that with me. That I'm thin-skinned]
Me: [says that she can be herself/spontaneous that it's more about respect.]
Then she tried every manipulation in the book: left, right, left, right. Tried to change topic, tried to guilt me, tried to shame me, etc. Maybe around 10 attacks in a row.
I countered. Every. Single. One. Of. Them.
I felt like I was Lucio. Like I could see the social matrix. She said something -> I categorized it and defended: "We were not talking about this we were talking about that", "that's not what I said I said this", etc.. She also refered to what happened a year ago: "You did the same with this girl". I laughed: "you're not doing that are you?" (old file technique). Now that I think of it she's the one who actually did the same: insult me on my birthday.
She also asked me why I did not say more to my other friend. I said that I did by repeating the sentence I said. And that by telling her that I did not like it it was actually a mark of respect. That some of my friends play sometimes power moves but I let it slip because I don't care enough about them.
She was soooo pissed off when she tried to shame me: her face!! A mask of anger and rage!! I touched her arm: "no need to shout, no need to shout" as I stayed calm (she's still conditioned by my family to shout when having a conflict).
I could not remember exactly all I said as it was a lot and it was maybe in the span of 1-2 minutes. It was intense mentally but not emotionally. It felt like a video game on crack.
Then she said as she calmed down after I countered every power move:
Her: why is it a problem if I say that then?
Me: because I'm suffering to be single.
Here there was no strategy. I was honest and vulnerable. And I realized she was not aware of it/or gaslighting.
Her: I thought you being a doctor and good looking guy it would not be the case.
Me: [proceeds to explain to her how the dating game is tough nowadays with dating apps and social media for guys. She was sincerely interested. She's in a couple for about 17 years or more so she's never done that. I tell her that apparently nowadays it's not enough. And maybe also my type is not working]
Her: [she tells me that actually it's true that some of her girlfriend swipe left on arab-looking guys. Also tells me the kind of thing they swipe left to, proving my point: picture with a cat -> left, etc.
Then the following sentence I think it's a power move, she says repeatedly:
Her: I did not know! I did not know you were suffering!
That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.
I think it was a power move as she said it repeatedly. In French we say: "stir the knife in the wound" (remuer le couteau dans la plaie) to mean that one is insisting on a topic that is painful. And it's socially ungraceful in my culture (and in others I assume).
At this moment I was holding my hand in my head and was baffled that she could not imagine I could suffer from a lack of a romantic/sexual relationship. That's why I think it's gaslighting here (or stupidity so more gaslighting I believe). I was having the body language (remember I'm half-drunk at this time) of "For the love of god hail mary the angels and hell included I CANNOT BELIEVE IT". So yeah very expressive BL of disbelief.
Now the good part. Actually this could have been the moment when we spoke about the challenges of dating as a modern guy. Anyway it does not matter in this particular case the timing. What happened is that after this conflict, we actually bonded as she calmed down. She said she's not going to insult me anymore on a calm tone. She then came to my place as she lives far away and I hosted her. Before she went to sleep I gave her advice as a pediatrician for about an hour about her 14 years old kid. She said the next day she's going to apply those. It's a tough situation: they lost control.
So as you can imagine writing this I was very proud of me. I think it's one of those times where I could measure my progress from one year ago.
I thought sincerely: I would have liked Lucio to see me.
I asserted my boundaries, I detected emotions in her, I addressed them, I defended against about 10 power moves in a row, I was vulnerable/honest, I bonded with my sister, I hosted her, I gave her advice she took and listened to and I had my boundaries respected.
So another success for TPM! So for doubters (if any left here). This knowledge works.
As I told Power Duck, the trick is the time scale for progress on this stuff. It's in years. So I'm looking forward to the next year and going to the next level. Sometimes I'm thinking: where will I be in 10 years? The sky is the limit if I continue to study this knowledge on a daily basis.
So thank you very much all of you, I owe my success largely to you! You are my teachers and my brothers-in-arms. My gratitude is of a much higher magnitude than my pride in this success.
More successes to share are coming soon 🙂
PS: it's not my most structured post I admit. It would have been if I would have written the following day but other priorities.
PSS: went for a scuba diving baptem the following day. She does it as well and she proposed me to go together some day. As a reminder before it was very difficult for me to get in touch. Oh by the way, now she answers to my phone calls. So as Lucio said. It's all about power. Like for my birthday. Last year we were about 15 people. But some of them were friends of friends or regulars from the bar. Here they were 13 real friends. So I see my power increased as well. When we were at the bar (this is for you Lucio: where your student is at right now): they were chanting my name as we were toasting. And they were really happy to chant my name. I took it with humility but still: it's not every day a group of 7-8 people chant my name with happiness. Yeah it's my birthday but still. I think it showed love.

I suppose those are recent events, in that case.... Happy birthday man!

It's incredible what power dynamics can accomplish, I don't personally know your sister but power dynamics definetely play an important role (if not the most) in such a change, of course I also think that she enjoyed her time with her brother and wants to spend more time with him.

About insecurities and finding a partner. I think that it's always important to understand that love for the most part is based on power, culture and mental health. You've probably read more about this matter than me, so you may know better. But overall what I want to say is that even if one is one of the coolest and most amazing guys could end up without the fulfilling relationship he wants if he doesn't "click" for the girl. I can't tell the future, but I can tell you're one of the coolest and most amazing guys I've known. I recall reading that you saw people weren't appreciating what you bring to the table, well that's their loss.

Nothing you don't probably know here, but if no one appreciates a person for what he is and what he brings that person is better off alone.

That's how I like to see modern dating struggles, it's quite liberating 🙂.

Cheers man.

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#5 · October 15, 2023, 6:24 pm

Hello Power Duck,

thank you very much! Thanks for the compliments as well, it's heartwarming.

I like your philosophy, I share it but it's reinforcing what I think as I get judged for being single (by women of course).

I used to think most women are nice. I think most women are not nice. They can actually be quite nasty when fighting for status/attention. I used to ignore it. Now that I pay attention to it, it's ugly and I don't like it. They are kind and sweet with their children and intimate partner.

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#6 · October 15, 2023, 7:12 pm

I like your philosophy, I share it but it's reinforcing what I think as I get judged for being single (by women of course).
I used to think most women are nice. I think most women are not nice. They can actually be quite nasty when fighting for status/attention. I used to ignore it. Now that I pay attention to it, it's ugly and I don't like it. They are kind and sweet with their children and intimate partner.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think it's also important to revisit those thoughts and views from time to time, as they can cause one to become resentful (at least I feel resentful from time to time because of the selfishness and naivete of those lies we've been told by mainstream media).

I think that the fact that the insult incel is thrown around so commonly by women on the internet (and outside but less commonly) is part of the reason why one could feel uneased with those thoughts.

About women being nasty with men they think don't add value to them/ men with lower power than them, I like to think that those are unconscious mechanism women/both sexes have. I believe the important thing is to notice them and change/control them if possible, it's common in humans (and I'd say part of our nature) to treat badly those who are lower power than us, women having more power in the sexual market (specially in this day and age) probably makes them more likely to have this behaviour.

Anyway if you disagree feel free to comment. Although I think this is material for another post, how self awareness affects a human being's behaviour could be a very important thing to have in mind when assessing someone's character. After all you can't be good if you don't know how to be bad, specially if one tells to himself that he can't be bad.

Cheers.

#7 · October 15, 2023, 7:27 pm

Off-topic (we're not talking about the power move anymore :P)

Quote from Power Duck on October 15, 2023, 7:12 pm
About women being nasty with men they think don't add value to them/ men with lower power than them, I like to think that those are unconscious mechanism women/both sexes have. I believe the important thing is to notice them and change/control them if possible, it's common in humans (and I'd say part of our nature) to treat badly those who are lower power than us, women having more power in the sexual market (specially in this day and age) probably makes them more likely to have this behaviour.

Yeah true I think you're right. Just like we as men don't give as much attention to ugly women. That's the thing that makes me lose respect as well. Sometimes they think I'm low power/low value. Like yesterday evening. Then I put up some boundaries or they see all my friends offering me gifts and celebrating me. Then they switch their behaviours and come to me or feel like: "oh shit he's actually high value". So to me it's despicable as they were not treating me well in the first place. So not respectful people. It shows a lot about your character how you treat people you think you don't need.

So I'm not impressed by lots of women's behaviour when they think they won't need someone and how it switches when they realize they can get something from you. So the hypocrisy and the selfishness behind it is a bit disgusting to me.

/Off-topic

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#8 · October 15, 2023, 8:33 pm

Rock on, John!

And happy belated birthday!

P.S.:
It was a good "ahole type of joke" (in a good way) that "it smells like virgin downstairs" :)

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#9 · October 15, 2023, 8:39 pm

Thank you very much!

Hahaha, I'm glad you liked the joke!

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#10 · October 15, 2023, 9:08 pm

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on October 15, 2023, 9:08 pm
I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:
Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)
In my opinion, I think you handled it very well! It's quite challenging to handle 2v1 on the spot.
That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.
Sharing a Personal Example About How Much to Share with Family
This reminded me of a brainstorming session with my therapist.
We were discussing for one hour on how I could handle my father.
Our decided strategy at the end of the session was written on his flip-chart where I took a photo:
I used to do more explaining and share more when dealing with criticism and manipulation from my mother and father.
Now I share only very superficial stuff in a business-like manner.
So far increasing the sharing has only resulted in negative responses so I will be sticking to that.
For example, in my recent exchange with my father, I refused to share more based on the current dynamics
Father: I received a phone call from the hospital about an appointment. Why are you going to the hospital?
Me: Is it important for you to know?
Father: Just tell me.
Me: I prefer not to say.
I saw another therapist for a second opinion.
She said that a texting relationship with my parents may be a good angle to explore (no calls and no meet-ups).
I'm trying this out for now.
Going Back to Your Sister
In your case, my opinion is that your sister needs to earn your trust and emotional safety to get access to your "deeper world".
Maybe you could try sharing less with her until she starts respecting you more.
It's unfortunate that sometimes our family members do not provide a safe and conducive environment to share freely.
Of course, this is deeply personal to you and you know the dynamics better, so feel free to take my opinion with a pinch of salt.
OFF-TOPIC
I'm not seeing the first therapist any longer because I find the therapist himself to be manipulative (I sense that we wants me to be dependent on him).
His advice has been useful though so I have to give credit to him for that.
But that's a story for another day.
OFF-TOPIC

I find my friends and sister upstairs and tell them:
Me: blababla... it smells like virgin downstairs (jokes)
Frank: they probably fuck more than you do.
My sister: yeah they fuck more than you do.
Me (to Frank): that's not cool to side with people you don't even know against your friend (he feels shame and shut down a bit)

In my opinion, I think you handled it very well! It's quite challenging to handle 2v1 on the spot.

That's where I knew I used too much of a strong word, revealing a weakness. She's my sister but can be very manipulative. That's why I think Lucio's distinction between narcissist (diagnosis) and manipulator/taker (category/behaviour) is useful. Nowadays I think that maybe she's not a narcissist but definitely a manipulator. How much? 50% 30% 80% I don't know. I think she's less a manipulator than a few years ago. However as Lucio said in his article on gaslighting for her it was all about winning when we had this exchange of power-move/counter-power move.

Sharing a Personal Example About How Much to Share with Family

This reminded me of a brainstorming session with my therapist.
We were discussing for one hour on how I could handle my father.
Our decided strategy at the end of the session was written on his flip-chart where I took a photo:

I used to do more explaining and share more when dealing with criticism and manipulation from my mother and father.
Now I share only very superficial stuff in a business-like manner.
So far increasing the sharing has only resulted in negative responses so I will be sticking to that.

For example, in my recent exchange with my father, I refused to share more based on the current dynamics

Father: I received a phone call from the hospital about an appointment. Why are you going to the hospital?
Me: Is it important for you to know?
Father: Just tell me.
Me: I prefer not to say.

I saw another therapist for a second opinion.
She said that a texting relationship with my parents may be a good angle to explore (no calls and no meet-ups).
I'm trying this out for now.

Going Back to Your Sister

In your case, my opinion is that your sister needs to earn your trust and emotional safety to get access to your "deeper world".

Maybe you could try sharing less with her until she starts respecting you more.

It's unfortunate that sometimes our family members do not provide a safe and conducive environment to share freely.

Of course, this is deeply personal to you and you know the dynamics better, so feel free to take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

OFF-TOPIC

I'm not seeing the first therapist any longer because I find the therapist himself to be manipulative (I sense that we wants me to be dependent on him).
His advice has been useful though so I have to give credit to him for that.
But that's a story for another day.

OFF-TOPIC

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