Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Training with egomaniacs at the fight gym

12

Hey so, about a few weeks ago I was training in my jiu-jitsu class, and this guy I was rolling (it's basically wrestling, but ends when someone taps) with, managed to get my back, and I felt his forearm under my chin so I knew he pretty much had the choke so I tapped immediately, and relaxed my muscles because I thought he was going to let go. But instead, he cranks the choke at full force and stands up (we were both on the ground when I tapped), jacking my neck up and holding it for at least 1-2 full seconds. My throat got fucked up over that and it still hurts a bit right now.

At the time, I was in complete shock because that had never happened to me before in my 3 years of training. I said something like "good rolling with you" afterwards because I didn't know what to say, and I was gassed out. I'm thinking of giving him a ton of shit when I see him back there. This is how I imagine the conversation will go:

JP: "Hey Bill, you know that time you choked me AFTER I tapped, really fucked up my throat right?"

B: "Yeah sorry about that"

JP: "You really need to learn how to let go when someone taps"

B: "Sorry I guess I got lost in the moment"

JP: "What if you had done a neck crank on me? You would've broken my neck you idiot"

*I leave*

Keep in mind that this person is known to fight dirty and have a big ego. Him jacking my neck up like that was a total power move. Other than giving him a ton of shit and never rolling with him ever again, I don't know how else I could handle this better.

Hey JP,

Yeah, you sometimes meet some idiots in some dojos unluckily -luckily, they're rare in my experience-.

A few notes for you to consider:

  1. I wouldn't start with "remember that time you chocked me after the tap": you give him an opportunity to pretend he doesn't remember, or to deny. I'd start with "remember that time we rolled and you stood up?".  Much more likely you get a "yes". Then you give him your piece
  2. Skip the "right" at the beginning: when you end your sentence with "right", it seems like passive-aggressive accusation, or that you're trying to get his agreement to go ahead -which he might not give you-. Much easier to get his full attention if you start neutral, with "that time you rolled together"
  3. Make the bonehead move the centerpiece, rather than the throat pain: you give him a way out if you put your foot forward with your pain. he might hide with "unluckily accidents happen and sometimes we can get hurt". Instead, there is no hiding behind a bonehead move that was not supposed to happen. Then you can also add the consequences it had for you, as an added piece. But I wouldn't start with that
  4. Prioritize facts over personal accusations: if you start full-on, it sounds like you were stewing about it. And you probably were, and you were damn right to be angry about it. But still, you lose some power since people will be thinking "why didn't he speak right away"? So better off to start neutral. For the same reason, I would personally make it generally less accusatory/angry now that this much time has passed, and focus more on stating facts. Ie.: less "you did", and more general statements of "that is a risky move and it's not acceptable"
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

I agree with Lucio.

For the long-term, I would say it’s an assertiveness problem. As in this case you went submissive and then later your intention was to go aggressive. So I would focus on developing my assertiveness. This assertiveness stems from self-respect and self-esteem. So if you deal with deeper issues you will reap much benefits in your social interactions.

On the other hand, my perspective is to use the context in your favor.  If you talk personally: “You hurt me” he can still use the “you’re weak I’m strong frame” such as  “this is Jiu-jitsu man, you did not know there were some choking going on?” or “I did no know you were made of sugar”. Instead I think it’s more effective to remind him of the rules and that he broke one. I would use everything Lucio said: introduction, neutral tone, staying factual. And I would use the frame of: “In Brazilian jiu-jitsu you continued to fight after I tapped and that’s forbidden.” And let him talk to see where he stands. You’re giving him a chance to apologize. He knows he hurt you as it was his intention: to feel powerful (bully). So by using the rules you remove the persons from the issue. Whatever he says I think you should report him to an authority of the dojo where you train.

I underestimated the importance or doing this as I thought it was cowardly  and I was supposed to handle it myself directly in a 1-to-1.  I was wrong. We are part of groups and these groups have rules. Being part of the group means accepting and abiding by these rules (work, family, couple, country).

Imagine if you’re the leader of this dojo. Wouldn’t you want to know that a member has been abused by another member (bully)?

Of course these are the kind of transgression you want to know to keep the group balanced and value-adding to the members.

So I think these are kind of violations you want to make the leader aware. You don’t have to give a name if you want. But this is not only about you. By not speaking up (assertive) you give him the opportunity to do it again to other people. Check out the video I posted in the “bullying” topic.

I’m not saying it’s always called for. You have more information than I do about this situation. However I think it’s worth considering.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 7, 2020, 9:41 am

Hey JP,

Yeah, you sometimes meet some idiots in some dojos unluckily -luckily, they're rare in my experience-.

A few notes for you to consider:

  1. I wouldn't start with "remember that time you chocked me after the tap": you give him an opportunity to pretend he doesn't remember, or to deny. I'd start with "remember that time we rolled and you stood up?".  Much more likely you get a "yes". Then you give him your piece
  2. Skip the "right" at the beginning: when you end your sentence with "right", it seems like passive-aggressive accusation, or that you're trying to get his agreement to go ahead -which he might not give you-. Much easier to get his full attention if you start neutral, with "that time you rolled together"
  3. Make the bonehead move the centerpiece, rather than the throat pain: you give him a way out if you put your foot forward with your pain. he might hide with "unluckily accidents happen and sometimes we can get hurt". Instead, there is no hiding behind a bonehead move that was not supposed to happen. Then you can also add the consequences it had for you, as an added piece. But I wouldn't start with that
  4. Prioritize facts over personal accusations: if you start full-on, it sounds like you were stewing about it. And you probably were, and you were damn right to be angry about it. But still, you lose some power since people will be thinking "why didn't he speak right away"? So better off to start neutral. For the same reason, I would personally make it generally less accusatory/angry now that this much time has passed, and focus more on stating facts. Ie.: less "you did", and more general statements of "that is a risky move and it's not acceptable"

I see, so basically I should be sticking to the fact that he had violated the rules rather than the consequence for those actions (which is my throat pain), but add the consequences (my throat pain) as an "insult to injury"?

Would I look petty if I told him that I don't want to roll with him any more, citing this bad experience with, "Hey sorry, but I don't trust you to release after I tap" or is it better to just make indirect excuses: "I'm taking a break this round"(we switch partners every round), "I'm rolling with someone else"?

I underestimated the importance or doing this as I thought it was cowardly  and I was supposed to handle it myself directly in a 1-to-1.  I was wrong. We are part of groups and these groups have rules. Being part of the group means accepting and abiding by these rules (work, family, couple, country).

Yes, good point. I too am hesitant to involve the trainers, and "snitching on people", but this is a serious safety issue that needs to be addressed. I will report him in a way that doesn't sound too whiny: "Hey John, just so you're aware, the last time I was here, I was rolling with Adam, and he cranked a choke on me so hard for at least 2 seconds after I had tapped, that it injured my throat."

You can add the issue it caused you, what I would avoid is an accusatory tone that frames the interaction as "listen how it hurt me, and that's because you're a bad person". That would have been OK if it was done right after the training, but once time has passed and you're supposed to be more in control, better to avoid.

If you don't want to roll with him, I would say it straight.
And maybe I would add that it's "temporary", for example: "sorry man, I don't feel comfortable rolling with you right now". Which is also a good power move, since you set yourself up as the chooser and you decide when he's "good enough" for him to give him another chance.

And I agree with John as well, that's the kind of stuff that you might want to mention to the trainer.

Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

That would have been OK if it was done right after the training, but once time has passed and you're supposed to be more in control, better to avoid.

Yes, very good point. When it comes to confronting people, I feel the need to become emotional in order to have "the balls" to pull it off. Sort of like a psychological "enabler".

 

 "sorry man, I don't feel comfortable rolling with you right now". Which is also a good power move, since you set yourself up as the chooser and you decide when he's "good enough" for him to give him another chance.

I really like this! I never would have thought about doing that! If I said "never want to roll with you ever", he would have less incentive to try to work things out with me. I would make enemies unnecessarily, which would reduce my own power.

Glad it was helpful, JP, and great self-awareness and self-insight you're showing there!

Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

By the way Lucio (or anyone else for that matter), how would you bring it up to the gym owners/coaches? In my mind, I feel like a bit powerless just for the fact that I'm bringing it up to them.

"Hi AJ, not sure how to tell you this, but the other day when I was here, Bill cranked the hell out of my neck 2 seconds after I tapped, and injured my neck. You might want to keep an eye out for him"

Would this sound ok in your opinion?

Hi JP,

Yeah, this is typical male ego that is worried about sounding weak -and please notice: I'm not saying this as criticism, I have it as much as you have (been writing on me working on it in my diary a couple of times)-.

And don't get me wrong: in many ways, it's also a good thing to have. Often, that male ego is helpful in making you come across as higher confidence / higher power -that's why it developed in the first place, probably-.
But there are plenty of other times where it can get in the way of your general effectiveness -and even more so in general life satisfaction: the selfish gene couldn't give a F about our happiness :)-.

Your approach sounds already good.
Maybe I'd "break it down" a bit more.
For example, instead of starting right away with the feedback about the person, I'd first say:

  • Hey AJ, may I give you give a feedback / heads up about something? (or: can I talk to you for one minute?)

Then, after he says yes, you go.

I would add that since now so much time has passed, you would rather that he doesn't say anything to AJ since you've already done, but you wanted to provide him with this information to keep the gym safe.

Then, I might add:

  • Yeah, I'm telling you this because I love this gym and I know many others do. So I want to keep it a safe place to train

So you end up with an indirect compliment and collaborative frame. This one makes sure that now he sees you as on his side, rather than someone who's just taking a complaint to him.

Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Yeah, I'm telling you this because I love this gym and I know many others do. So I want to keep it a safe place to train

I think this is the most important. Here the frame is "I care for the group"

"Hi AJ, not sure how to tell you this, but the other day when I was here, Bill cranked the hell out of my neck 2 seconds after I tapped, and injured my neck. You might want to keep an eye out for him"

Here the frame is: "I would like you to punish him".

I would add that it shows also a general mindset and intention, JP. If we go into the self-development side and if you care about contributing to something greater than yourself, I would consider developing the mindset of "I care for the group" (leader mindset).

Cheers!

12