Ultimatums, going meta or drop
I suggested watching a film with a girl I’m interested in. A built it up a bit much, and suggested it’s at my place. Last week she said yes, let’s do it next week. This week when I suggested the day she said no to film but suggested walk instead. I had talked about film a bit so interpreted as a blocker to seduction to change plans.
When I said wait I invited you to watch a film, she said only interested in walk. I called it out by saying this is a power ultimatum. Then she said “no problem, see ya”. So I called it an ultimatum again. Then she said she’s offended but talked at length about why she wanted to walk but not film. I basically said you could have explained this up front without ultimatums. Her explanation feels exaggerated given context but I don’t know for sure.
My basic query is whether people here think it’s better in seduction to go meta and call ultimatums when they occur, or just ignore? Eg she says let me know if film, and you don’t respond (as opposed to saying this is an ultimatum etc).
Lately I’ve been calling out power moves from people, mainly inspired by “going meta” concept from PU.
But its 3 from 3 for creating conflict. Do you only gain power if they respond by changing tact, apologising or so forth. In calling it out but not getting a change (in this case no date so lose lose) is this power down? Even if you’ve been assertive.
It seems it needs to result in you getting your way otherwise it’s just lose lose, conflict and power down?
What I really value about “going meta” is how it does bring out peoples true colours. For example, going meta then receiving a torrent of power moves in response (usually judge frame in dating context). However in my case it hasn’t resulted in a power transfer.
Going meta IS inherently confrontational.
You're basically telling people "here's the game you were playing, this is why it's not working".
It CAN be non-confrontational and a total power dunk if you do it so well and/or if you have enough power and charisma that people simply accept it and apologize -which is very possible-.
UNLESS you have enough power though, prepare for push-backs, denials, or... Derailed relationships.
As we often say here (and as SU says), early relationships are most often fragile (UNLESS he's so higher power from the start that she's chasing and/or already fully accepting his leadership). and in early dating male's power is generally lower.
As per straight-line seduction model, that calls for a leadership that is a bit gentler and for frame control that is a bit more on the negotiating side, rather than the frame imposing that going meta often demands (you need to impose sometimes when people refuse to take ownership of their power moves).
In this case, what a woman said last week means little.
Your approach was effective and rational, and perfectly suited for any other situation.
But that's not how dating women often work.
I'd have disregarded completely what she agreed on last week. As a matter of fact, I'd have been more surprised if she'd stuck to that plan. And the simple fact that she even replied after that long was already a great sign.
Generally speaking:
"the closer to a sex location you date, the more you want that date to happen as quickly as possible" (lest anti-slut defenses and guilt crops up.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 20, 2022, 12:13 pmGoing meta IS inherently confrontational.
You're basically telling people "here's the game you were playing, this is why it's not working".
It CAN be non-confrontational and a total power dunk if you do it so well and/or if you have enough power and charisma that people simply accept it and apologize -which is very possible-.
UNLESS you have enough power though, prepare for push-backs, denials, or... Derailed relationships.
As we often say here (and as SU says), early relationships are most often fragile (UNLESS he's so higher power from the start that she's chasing and/or already fully accepting his leadership). and in early dating male's power is generally lower.
I think this could go into PU under surfacing. It's an important distinction. As it could be understood that surfacing is cookie-cutter when explained without this caveat.
Reading this preventing me from confronting my boss with a power move of his. I'll write a post about it.
To hunter: I think what she back-off from was implied sex (movie at your place) so she tried to slow down the seduction. If you would have rolled with it, it would have shown detachment, that you don't need it so much and are willing to accomodate her preferences. This is inherently high-power.
When you confronted her, it might have felt to her as you were pressuring her for sex. Which is a no-no in seduction.
So I think it's about empathy and putting yourself in your shoes and not so much about what was agreed upon. It was more about the emotional component (safety, respect, intimacy) than an agreed contract between you two.
Please let me know if you have any comment about my feed-back.
Thanks Lucio. The times I’ve used meta have been in dating and I’ve generally not been high power, so Ill think about other frame control methods in this context.
Thanks John. I agree with your point about implied sex location, it wasn’t intended to be like that be I see how that’s a likely interpretation from her.
I don’t see how accomodating someone is inherently high power though. I’d have thought the opposite.
I talked about the film I wanted to watch and she agreed to a film but she wanted to text to confirm the day. Then with no explanation she suggested the walk. PU would say in dating context you can’t seduce if you agree to walk because:
- you’re no longer leading
- you accepted her power over you because you accept her rejection of your ideas
- you’re continuing to invest without reciprocation from a lopsided position
Basically you’re seeing her but you’re in the friend zone.
If you think about it, “walk or I don’t care” is obviously a power move, right? I just think to Lucio’s point going meta in this low power/early relationship context just blows up the thing.
What I can’t figure out though, is if it derails are you actually high power. Since it could also be construed as fickle to call people out. And you haven’t actually got what you want.
When I said wait I invited you to watch a film, she said only interested in walk. I called it out by saying this is a power ultimatum.
This is a girl you haven't slept with yet and isn't your girlfriend so on her end she doesn't have much to lose if she doesn't agree to your plans (there is some imbalance in what value she thinks you are and what value you think she thinks about you).
Calling it out as Ultimatum at this point and not being prepared to walk away yourself will make it seem needy to the girl.
Then she said she’s offended but talked at length about why she wanted to walk but not film.
She did reply here so it was still possible to salvage this.
When she explained about why she liked to walk and not watch a movie best way is you can try to see her real concern and try solving it to achieve your goals.
Also when she said she preferred walking one option is you could have played it that you preferred walking first and then watch a movie.
What do you say?
I don’t see how accomodating someone is inherently high power though. I’d have thought the opposite.
For me it’s high power because you choose to include her desires (win-win).
I think dominant and high power are 2 different things.
You decide to accommodate her to make her feel comfortable to obtain what you want (high power).
Thanks for comment Growfast.
Suggesting both would have been a good way to proceed, although it would have been challenging because she had already said “walk or we’re done”. She only explained herself after because I called her out - she may not even have realised it’s an ultimatum.
In hindsight I could have addressed what she told me better as well, but in the moment I was too pissed off.
Any thoughts on whether I’ve actually gained power even though it’s derailed, or am I low power because it’s derailed? She’s probably thinking I’m an arsehole, is being an “arsehole” - calling people out but pissing them off - high power? The reason I’m asking because I will likely see her again, we’re at the same studio, so I’m curious how the power lands after going meta but derailing (lose lose).
Hey hunter
I think that when it all came to this “walk or we’re done", there isn't much ROI in trying to salvage the interaction. I would just let that one go, otherwise that would indeed put you in a power negative stance. Let her think you are an asshole. It shouldn't do too much damage if you have cultivated good relations with other people in the studio and people like/respect you in general.
Now, here are my two cents on this: you were the first to invite confrontation when you said "I said wait I invited you to watch a film". It made you look like too worried about having sex (after all "let's see a movie" is a centuries old euphemism for "let's have sex" and every woman understands this. It's pretty much universal. I'm with John on this one) and like you reacted badly to . She liked you enough that she wanted to see you, but was not sold enough to "seal the deal", so she invited you to do something else. I don't think she was playing power. She was rather defensive, saying "not yet". When you made such a big deal of changing plans, you ended up being the actual power player in the situation and she picked up on this. You were the first to say "film or we're done" and, from her perspective, it really should be seen as a major red flag.
What if, instead, of insisting on the movie thing, you suggested something else? There were many routes you could have taken when she suggested walking that would have kept your leadership. It could have been Growfast's suggestions. Or you could have taken the judge role and said something along the lines of "No worries, walking is a great idea. There is this place bla bla bla I'd like to visit...". The key is: you suggest where you two will do the walking (that is, if you are into walking). Or you could dismiss walking altogether and suggest something else "That's a great idea, but I don't feel like walking that much. What do you say of doing X instead?". The key is: what you are doing here is taking into account the preferences of both you, and at the same time creating a dynamic where she feels comfortable to express her feelings and desires without giving up leadership.
After this you just the run SU model as usual.
Great advice I will have to add growfast and cavalier to the list of people I will never introduce to my nieces.