Waiters at restaurants joking while I'm with my partner - how to handle?
Hi Everyone!
This is a dynamic that has been going on for months - probably years - so far, although I only had this epiphany this week.
A big epiphany.
And I'm now really infuriated that all this time I didn't get it.
And that I let it go on for ages and likely diminish my status in front of my partner.
Context
This week I went to two different restaurants with my partner Bella.
Both are places we frequently go to.
First place
At the first place, the waiter - always the same waiter that serves us - came to our table and started behaving in a joking manner.
Examples:
Waiter: Has she decided yet? Cause I got from your discourse that she's the one who decides.
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Waiter: You finished already? Do you want me to leave the plate on the table in case she needs help?
Waiter: Oh so it's her birthday? How old? I can't believe it, I would have given you 10 years less!
Waiter: You know this beer is one glass only, not to be shared right?
This usually went on every time we went there, more or less.
The other day it was the same - although I started noticing the general dynamics:
- he would often speak directly to my partner Bella instead of acknowledging me
- he would subtly refer to Bella having decision power over me
- he would joke about what I said or try to paint it as "weird"
So far, my usual response here has been either ignore, or agree and amplify - as I had not understood the pattern nor the motivation behind it:
Waiter: Has she decided yet? Cause I got from your discourse that she's the one who decides.
Me: You're very perceptive.
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Me: Yep.
Waiter: You finished already? Do you want me to leave the plate on the table in case she needs help?
Me: No, she won't.
Waiter: Oh so it's her birthday? How old? I can't believe it, I would have given you 10 years less!
Me: [silence]
Waiter: You know this beer is one glass only, not to be shared right?
Me: Yes, and we'll have it all the same.
Well this week, after seeing how courteous and distantly polite he was with another couple of girls seated at a nearby table - and no doubt after internalizing more of PU - I had an instant epiphany:
This waiter is joking because he's attracted to my partner - and trying to subtly disrespect me in front of her.
And he's been doing that for ages without me getting it.
Second place
The facts are even more striking in this second place we went to.
There is always this bulky, somewhat manly female waitress that serves us.
It's been two or three times that she's started joking - and the joking manner is starting to become strikingly similar what the other waiter does at the other restaurant.
Examples:
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
Me: Just one.
Waitress: Ok, so I'm getting you two glasses of wine.
Waitress: [to Bella] Last time you didn't get the glass of wine, so this time you'll have three.
Bella: No, just one please.
Waitress: Ok, so we'll have three - one for me as well.
At a certain point I found myself unconsciously saying this:
Me: [to the waitress] By the way, we've been here a lot and don't even know your name.
Waitress: I'm Jasmine.
Me: And I'm Bel, and this is Bella.
Waitress: I don't know if I'll be good at remembering your names.
Me: Oh don't worry, we'll remember yours.
I now suspect I was trying to unconsciously go "friend", probably a bad move in light of what I now realize.
At the end of the evening I went to pay at the register. Bella has a discount card for this restaurant, which I now had in my hand - I usually pass it in front of the POS when the bill is out and the discount is automatically credited.
This time the waitress saw me at the register with Bella, and from afar she said to the cashier:
Waitress: They have the discount card!
Which I had just passed on the POS.
When we got out, Bella asked me:
Bella: Why didn't you tell the cashier that you had the card?
Me: Why do you ask?
Bella: Well, the waitress told the cashier, so I guess you should have told her.
Me: Well, last time I told the cashier and she just told me to pass the card myself.
So I started thinking why Bella had this feeling that I had should have said something.
Then it dawned on me:
The waitress had started playing the same dynamics of the other waiter. Probably for similar reasons as well.
Strikingly similar is the fact that she would often engage directly my partner Bella, without acknowledging me.
The reason why she screamed at the cashier "They have the discount card!" may possibly have been to go into a manipulative thread expanding move and paint me as "not having said something I should have" - as if I had behaved "weirdly".
Which - judging by Bella's question afterwards - was unfortunately successful.
On the general dynamics
I'm starting to realize this dynamic - of some waiters or servers trying to power move to destroy the couple - is much more frequent than I realized.
And I'm also starting to "backwards understand" many odd behaviors by other waiters that so far I hadn't understood.
I find these three are the best indicators of these dynamics, in my experience:
- speaking directly to the woman instead of acknowledging the man
- subtly referring to the woman as having decision power over the man (usually about what to eat)
- joking about what the man says or orders or asks, or in any case trying to paint the man's behavior as "weird" (including with non-verbal moves)
The third one is the most common.
I remember one night I asked a waiter at another restaurant whether he could doggy bag a dish for us.
He turned around, then turned back, then said loudly:
Waiter: That's something not even us do for this dish.
I guess the most common way for a waiter to disrespect a man with a woman is trying to imply "weirdness in his behavior" - even where none exists.
Now I see that here - after his response - I should have pushed back in any case:
Me: I didn't ask what you would do. I asked you to doggy bag this for us.
Instead I went "Oh, ok, no problem then".
Damn.
How to handle?
The issue I see with my approach so far is that, while it tries to minimize inconvenience, it doesn't stop the moves for good as it subcommunicates I don't realize what's going on - which was true, unfortunately.
So I guess now to stop these annoying moves I'll have to go more meta, maybe in a joking way:
Waiter: So is she deciding everything tonight as always?
Me: Hey: I understand she's really beautiful. But I believe it might be better if you stop joking for a bit and let us dine in peace for once.
Waitress: So tonight you'll have three glasses of wine - one for me.
Me: Hey, I understand she's very attractive. But we've been happily a couple for more than ten years so far, and we plan on keeping it that way.
What's your take on this guys?
Do you agree with my interpretation, or do you see a better way?
Hello Bel,
I'll go straight to the point without preambles: I think these are poor answers.
In several ways, too.
The smaller issue being that you build up your wife a lot, while self-framing you as "lucky" to have her, which is quite bad for long-term relationship dynamics.
The bigger issue though is:
You'd be answering to a very covert power move by addressing the intention.
But that intention is VERY far removed from the power move (and something you can't even be too sure about. Me for one, I'm not at all convinced the female waitress wanted to break up your relationship).
It would be SO easy for the waiters to play shocked and like you're crazy -and chances are, they wouldn't even have to fake that but truly believe that since some of those games are unconscious-.
And even if your analysis is correct, your answer is still so off compared to the small-time, in-the-moment power move that it makes you come off very off.
In short:
It's uncalibrated.
Definitely, you want to check those power moves, but it has to be calibrated to what they do or say in the moment, without jumping to the far, far removed intent.
Intentions
As for intentions, definitely, the male waiter may have been peacocking and pushing you down to seem more powerful by comparison.
The woman, not so sure at all.
But also consider that many waiters and restaurant owners joke around, test, and even seek to one-up and dominate patrons -it's a rather common dynamic-.
Answering it
I'd personally check that with some high-power irony yourself.
Doesn't even matter what you reply, just to show that you're controlling the frame and deciding when to get back to serious.
But if you want to go for a high-power shocker, here's an idea:
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
You: One first, I need to check if you don't water it down (like last time)
Then, whatever she replies: ahaha I'm joking, one glass of wine for now, then we'll see.
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Thank you so much Lucio.
So my behavior so far hasn't been off the mark too much: just handle it like they're an annoying inconvenience.
I guess now, here on the forum, I'm just reacting at the anger of not having understood the situation so far (on which, you're right - I can't be sure. But I have this strong feeling that popped into my mind, and lately I'm rarely wrong).
This forum really is a blessing, as it allows to test things that in life could be a problem.
As you say, might be best to dial up power and dial down warmth - message will be loud and clear anyways.
EDIT: And as to the "they have the card" move, next time I'll just go:
Me: Yeah, I was just showing it to you.
"Stop manipulative thread expanding" - they should make a bumper sticker with that.
And, now that I see the intention behind it, it will definitely be easier for me to check this shit by remaining under cover, but still conveying the message.
Hello Bel,
very interesting case, thanks for sharing.
Well, first it's good that you're now aware that there are underlying frames behind their speeches. Here is my interpretation:
Culture: to me this denotes a culture where the man is supposed to be "macho"/dominant. That's my assumption. So I think it would be good if one would prepare oneself mentally that there is a high chance that people will challenge as: "is this person a "real man"?" or any variation: "who's in charge?" and so on. In my culture, it just never happens. I don't remember last time it happened at least. What I mean is that there is probably a wide-spread cultural element that I would take into account if relevant to the environment you're in: you know better.
Roles: I agree with Lucio, depending on the restaurant/bar, it's quite common that they try to one-up the patron in many restaurants. So basically it's like flirting: they throw one, one answers with one. If that's helpful, the trick is to take it as a joke so one answers as a joke. Basically it's quite common to joke about power and status: I one-up you, you one-up me and after a couple of back and forth, either we end up on a one-across ("Well, I'm glad to be here tonight" or any kind of warm statement) or one gets tired and ends the game. I view it as a social game.
Intentions: I don't think they try to break your couple. I think the guy is a man and guys like to flirt with women. If they are not getting checked, then they do it more. Once again, I would do it with humour. Basically, I think it's about who's the dominant male here. And he wants to show that it's his territory and he does pretty much what he wants here. That's the total wrong frame: he's an employee, you're the customer. He serves you, you're higher power than him. I'm not saying to shove it down his throat, I'm sure you understood. That's the social grace of being high-power high-warmth: you serve me and I treat you with respect (but respect me back).
Context: I also think they are at work, are bored and want to have a little fun.
Summary
To me, it's about showing with humour that one can take a joke and throw one back. Within the humour, I generally inject that I'm the customer and they're serving me. So basically, one says everything with a smile on one's face. I personally enjoy these back-and-forth IF I'm in the mood (not too tired, not too low mood). Sometimes I also take it at first degree, take it seriously and forget to bounce on their joke.
Examples
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
Me: Hahaha, you're a good saleswoman I almost fell for it. (smile) I'll have now for now, thank you (smile), what about you GF?
Here I stay in the humour, reframe this as she's a waitress and I'm the customer and take back the leadership
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
Me: Hahaha, I know if I start with the wine... I'll be serious tonight (smile)
Here I stay in the flirty (social not sexual) vibe, 95%, she'll throw one back at me:
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
Me: Hahaha, you know if I start with the wine... I'll be serious tonight (smile)
Her: serious? Come on you're not that old!
Me: Hahaha, I like to have my little fun from time to time. (smile) So I'll be happy to have one glass of this delicious wine of yours, what about you GF?
So here I do my best to show that me or her can stop the game at any time and point.
Waitress: They have the discount card!
Me: turns to the waitress and raise my hand high with open palm as in "I've got this" (with a smile), turns to the POS: "you still take the discount card right?" (token question, I already know the answer)
Here I stop the triangulation: I cut the communication between him and her by re-establishing: 1. direct communication with her. 2. direct communication with him.
Waiter: Has she decided yet? Cause I got from your discourse that she's the one who decides.
Me (ignores his statement): We still need a little bit more time to look at the menu, thank you (smile and look at the menu)
Here, I enforce the: "I'm the customer and you're the waiter" frame and dismiss him. It's a bit stronger. I also use the "We" frame: the couple is one unit and he's the outsider.
Waiter: Has she decided yet? Cause I got from your discourse that she's the one who decides.
Me: Hahaha, yeah you know "the man proposes, the woman disposes" (a french proverb) (smiles), we'll need a little bit more time to look at the menu thanks (look back at the menu)
Here I use a philosopher frame/small talk and put me with the server as in: "you and I are both depending on women". It's a bit of self-deprecating humour so a bit self-disempowering. It's a different style, depends on the situation. So not my favourite in the end.
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Me: hahaha, we'll see! Why? you want some?
Just a silly joke. Frames him as someone who would like to eat customer's dinners. So it's on the same level he's doing it.
Waiter: You know this beer is one glass only, not to be shared right?
Me: Hahaha, we're not that cheap! (smile) thank you
Here I surface the frame (if I understand right what he means), show I get the joke and puts again back the frame of "I'm the customer, thanks for your service".
PS: I experimented in this post with writing "I" and "someone" instead of "you" as we talked recently. If this sounds off or awkward, please let me know. 🙂
Edit: I put several examples to show that there is not one answer, it's a game of inventing answers: you choose the frame also based on your references (country, movies, hobbies) as you could for instance make reference to football or anything you like.
I'll expand a bit on this one as he'll come back:
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Me: hahaha, we'll see! Why? you want some?
Him: No I don't eat customer's dinner!
Me: Hahaha, I hope so! (smile)
Here I re-establish the correct power dynamics.
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Me: hahaha, we'll see! Why? you want some? I'm not sharing
Him (90% he'll come back with this one): Ah you're not a sharing person!
Me: Hahaha, with my wife, yes! (smile), we'll look a bit at the menu and will let you know when we're ready, thank you (smile)
Here he will play with the "you're selfish frame" which I reframe in the "it's about her and me here and you're not part of our romantic dinner" and reframe again as him as a waiter.
Thank you John,
It’s very helpful to read these great ways to respond.
I agree that this is a mostly unconscious dynamic and when I spoke of “breaking the couple” I was going to the extreme end of possible consequences.
Still nasty though, and not what I expect from my server.
I understand I cannot go fully meta here, but now that I realize the underlying motive I do believe I will be a bit more blunt in my answers and in my tone next time - while still keeping the cover - to stop this for good.
Because it is very annoying.
The bottom line factor is that - while I used to think they were “joking with me” - in reality they are disrespecting me in front of my partner.
Also: I don’t want to encourage the frame anymore. I want to stop it. I’m not interested in going on in a back and forth duel of jokes, or wits, with the waiter who serves me dinner.
I want to concentrate on dining and having a good time with my partner. And I want either my server to keep his issues and mental problems to himself, or change restaurant and be treated respectfully elsewhere.
Because in the end, as you say, I’m the customer. And if I prefer to eat without idiotic jokes going on, that’s how I expect to eat. Or I will complain - - and go elsewhere.
I believe I will say something like
Hey, I know you’re great fun, but I’m not looking to be entertained every time I come here to dine.
Or maybe more polite and less confrontational
You always give us such fun moments! Now if you could also let us eat… with what we - not you - wish to order, that would be great.
This retakes the judge role, frames him as entertaining “us”, subcommunicates he’s overstepping the line, and tells him to stop.
But, I believe, it still remains sufficiently under cover.
I also believe that, even if I should say something like
Now can you please stop joking and just bring us what I ordered?
Sure, Bella would sense I’m acting strangely - probably ask me about my “offensive behavior”.
Sure, I would be totally uncalibrated.
Sure, the waiter could accuse me of “not getting his fun” and of “being disrespectful”.
But I still would communicate the message loud and clear and eat in peace from then on - as the waiter would fully sense I am able to disrespect him back.
He would still stop, and my relationship with Bella would ultimately gain.
The bottom line here is that my mistake was that I accepted the frame of these total assholes for fear of being “disrespectful”, not realizing that they were disrespecting me - in front of Bella.
Even telling these people to fuck off would have been better than what I did.
I’m now ready to figuratively tell them to seriously fuck off.
To be respected, you have to risk offending some people. Like when I told my asshole doorman who had “bad news to tell me” that he could also get bad news in the future. And he stopped disrespecting me.
And now I’ll definitely take the chance to offend these assholes to dine in peace with my partner.
Based on your answer, I personally would change restaurant. If when you go to the restaurant you feel like it’s going to be disagreeable, then it’s not worth it in my opinion.
For learning sake it’s still worth to experiment with your proposition though.
Some precision: the answers above take the assumption that the waiter/waitress is saying it on a joking tone (or with a smile). If the person says that on a serious tone then it’s rude and totally inadequate of course.
For sure I'll go back to both places and redress the dynamic, before deciding whether to continue going there or not.
They are the ones who should be ashamed.
Yes of course! Looking forward to know how it went.
Quote from Bel on April 16, 2023, 4:47 pmHi Everyone!
This is a dynamic that has been going on for months - probably years - so far, although I only had this epiphany this week.
A big epiphany.
And I'm now really infuriated that all this time I didn't get it.
And that I let it go on for ages and likely diminish my status in front of my partner.
Context
This week I went to two different restaurants with my partner Bella.
Both are places we frequently go to.
Hi Bel,
That waiter sounds annoying especially when you go there to relax and dine in peace.
You said you go to these restaurants frequently so is it possible you could speak to the manager and ask for a different waiter saying you find the male waiter acting a little to friendly for comfort before you dine? You could also bring this topic beforehand with Bella too, saying the male waiter makes you feel uncomfortable, so that Bella and you are both on the same page, If that's not possible I would try to not answer at all, or if I had to probably with one word answers and very factually pertaining to the actual situation, since a pattern is already set it might take a while to break this pattern up. Also I would ask a waiter to leave and give us some space.
Examples:
Waiter: Has she decided yet? Cause I got from your discourse that she's the one who decides.
Me: We still haven't decided, can you come back in 5 minutes? (You are subtly reminding him that you can make him wait on you)
Waiter: Here's your order! Are you sure you can eat it all?
Me: Thank You, we'll be able to tell that once we start to eat. or if you come back in 20 minutes you'll be able to find out.
Waiter: You finished already? Do you want me to leave the plate on the table in case she needs help?
Me: Needs help? (Looking at him puzzled, if he backtracks well and good, if not you got more options to escalate)
Waiter: Oh so it's her birthday? How old? I can't believe it, I would have given you 10 years less!
Me: Yes, Thank you she does look gorgeous (turn away from him and start speaking to your wife)
Waiter: You know this beer is one glass only, not to be shared right?
Me: We share everything. (If he then escalates, you have plenty of options then)
Examples:
Waitress: You're ordering only one glass of wine? Oh no, you must have at least two.
Me: As long as it's on the house.
Waitress: Ok, so I'm getting you two glasses of wine.
Me: As long as the extra one is on the house.
Waitress: [to Bella] Last time you didn't get the glass of wine, so this time you'll have three.
Bella: No, just one please.
Waitress: Ok, so we'll have three - one for me as well.
Me: Sure as long as you pick up the tab 🙂
At a certain point I found myself unconsciously saying this:
Me: [to the waitress] By the way, we've been here a lot and don't even know your name.
Waitress: I'm Jasmine.
Me: And I'm Bel, and this is Bella.
Waitress: I don't know if I'll be good at remembering your names.
Me: Oh don't worry, we'll remember yours.
I now suspect I was trying to unconsciously go "friend", probably a bad move in light of what I now realize.
I agree we'll remember was not the best, you could have gone with we might forget yours too, or that's unfortunate or anything else.
At the end of the evening I went to pay at the register. Bella has a discount card for this restaurant, which I now had in my hand - I usually pass it in front of the POS when the bill is out and the discount is automatically credited.
This time the waitress saw me at the register with Bella, and from afar she said to the cashier:
Waitress: They have the discount card!
Which I had just passed on the POS.
When we got out, Bella asked me:
Bella: Why didn't you tell the cashier that you had the card?
Me: Why do you ask?
Bella: Well, the waitress told the cashier, so I guess you should have told her.
Me: Well, last time I told the cashier and she just told me to pass the card myself.
So I started thinking why Bella had this feeling that I had should have said something.
Then it dawned on me:
The waitress had started playing the same dynamics of the other waiter. Probably for similar reasons as well.
Strikingly similar is the fact that she would often engage directly my partner Bella, without acknowledging me.
The reason why she screamed at the cashier "They have the discount card!" may possibly have been to go into a manipulative thread expanding move and paint me as "not having said something I should have" - as if I had behaved "weirdly".
Which - judging by Bella's question afterwards - was unfortunately successful.
On the general dynamics
I'm starting to realize this dynamic - of some waiters or servers trying to power move to destroy the couple - is much more frequent than I realized.
And I'm also starting to "backwards understand" many odd behaviors by other waiters that so far I hadn't understood.
I find these three are the best indicators of these dynamics, in my experience:
- speaking directly to the woman instead of acknowledging the man
- subtly referring to the woman as having decision power over the man (usually about what to eat)
- joking about what the man says or orders or asks, or in any case trying to paint the man's behavior as "weird" (including with non-verbal moves)
The third one is the most common.
I remember one night I asked a waiter at another restaurant whether he could doggy bag a dish for us.
He turned around, then turned back, then said loudly:
Waiter: That's something not even us do for this dish.
I guess the most common way for a waiter to disrespect a man with a woman is trying to imply "weirdness in his behavior" - even where none exists.
Now I see that here - after his response - I should have pushed back in any case:
Me: I didn't ask what you would do. I asked you to doggy bag this for us.
I think here you did great, probably you could have been a little more polite, because it seems like you are reacting to his frame.
Me: Thank you for your opinion, I would like this doggy bagged please.
That's how I would approach this and see how it plays out.
Thank You
Mav