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What's in it for them guys, WIIFT, never forget it!

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That was funny, next thing you know, she was going to become the happiest woman in the world... If you only went cleaned her place or something :D.

Ali Scarlett and Transitioned have reacted to this post.
Ali ScarlettTransitioned
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Haha. What a campaigner.   I bet plenty of people have gone and cleaned her apartment.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmano

And to go back to a previous thread on women/men differences: that approach is far more likely to come from a woman.

There is an undertone of flirting and sexuality there that overspills into the non-sexual.

Women can do that far more easily because, on average, women are the demand and men are the offer -and the sexual marketplace, on average, is a sellers' market-.

A man doing it to another would come across as weird -"gay", in large part- because of those sexual dynamics.

Maxim Levinsky has reacted to this post.
Maxim Levinsky
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

It's an interesting one.  A couple of times I ve connected strongly with female recruiters - just being friendly no lines crossed and no manipulation intended  And later they accused me of being too charming.    So my assumption is that they think I m manipulating as they would (Given that interesting study on how most salespeople are high mach). No honour amongst thieves.

Been a while since we've added to this thread. So, I'd like to share a recent case study.

A few weeks ago, I got this email in my inbox:

The "Our LinkedIn conversation" was a bit much, in my opinion, given that we didn't necessarily "conversate" because there was no back and forth.

I'll share that LinkedIn chat below so you can get a good analysis of his approach, social strategy, and maybe what he could have done better:

So far, no red flags here, in my opinion. As you can tell from the dates, we connected on LinkedIn on November 4. And, he sent me an email (the one above) later that same day.

The WIIFM is clear. But, what's in it for you?

Notice how in the email he mentions everything about what I would get out of this partnership and nothing about what he would get? That raised a yellow flag in my head.

I figured they want me to manage a part of the app for them which would cost me my time. But, he didn't say that in any of his messages.

So, am I supposed to assume that these guys want to just hand me money? That doesn't sound too realistic.

So, I look through the PDF he said he attached. And, there it was:

It's beginning to sound like they want me to pay them...to pay me.

And, the fact that I am only now hearing about the deposits (in the PDF I had to invest extra effort to carefully read and review) is concerning me. In the email (and the LinkedIn messages), there was nothing about paying them at all.

So, this is starting to sound like debt-swapping:

  • Debt-swapping: Framing their ask (needing help and funding to build a successful geographical region here in the U.S. with their mobile app) as a give (giving a partnership opportunity to send a lot of money and business relationships to me and only me).

But, I don't want to jump to conclusions. So, I send him an email to confirm:

And, he doesn't respond.

Instead, he treats that email thread like a "burned medium" and starts a brand new one four days later:

And, he reaches out again over LinkedIn:

So, I treat it like he missed my response. And, with the broken record technique, repeat what I said in response to his new email:

Again, no response.

Two weeks later, he does it again. He abandons the email thread with my response in it, and starts a brand new email in a brand new thread:

It already seemed like he was hiding from my emails. But, one thing that stood out to me was this line:

S: "Would love to connect in the coming days, because if I don't hear from you I will need to connect with another St Leonard area contact to partner with there."

  1. "...if I don't hear from you..." (frame control): slightly frames it as if he hasn't heard from me yet. And, that implies he didn't receive any of my responses. So, either he truly didn't get any my emails, or he frame ignored them all (or some other miscellaneous reason).
  2. "...I will need to connect with another St Leonard area contact to partner with..." (commodity theory / principle of scarcity): mentioning his alternatives to partnering with me makes this opportunity more scarce because there are other contacts he can connect with who (it's implied) would want this deal. And, there's a bit of social pressure here because he already mentioned that the only people he's interested in partnering with are people like me (who are also entrepreneurs and also in the same area). So, triggering social pressure this way influences me to want this deal more due to ingroup/outgroup favoritism.
  3. "...I will need to connect with another St Leonard area contact to partner with..." (potential future social credit inflating): this feels like it's framing the value-offer as limited because, after talking up the WIIFMs so much, "everyone wants this hot deal". But, I also think it's only something to keep in mind for future conversations because I don't think this line is a social exchange manipulation (yet). I think it's simply their way of trying to help me appreciate the consequences of not connecting with them to discuss the deal further (see "Handling 'We Will Crush You'").
  4. "...I will need to connect with another St Leonard area contact..." (frame control): notice he doesn't say he'll need to "find" another contact, only connect with them. In my opinion, this frames it as if he already has other contacts lined up that he simply needs to shoot an email over to if he wants to partner with them instead of me.

After the run-around games, I was no long interested and didn't respond. If someone else got that deal and profited from it, that's great for them. But, I have other projects and opportunities I'm focusing on right now that don't raise yellow flags for me.

Lucio Buffalmano, Valentin and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoValentinMaxim LevinskyBel

Thanks for sharing another detailed case study.
I share the same view as you Ali.

He's shady because

  • He is very vague on what the business is about
  • He avoids your communications
  • He keeps asking you to book a calendar meeting with him

My Guess - Multi-Level Marketing + Automated Email Campaign

It sounds like multi-level marketing to me where he uses the mobile app as the product to find partners.
Or it could even be a scam altogether.

As to why he doesn't respond to your emails, I think the emails are sent out via an email automation tool (Mailchimp/ActiveCampaign).
The purpose is to blast out emails and hope some people will book a meeting with the sender.
If you don't book a meeting, the email automation tool sends out another email to chase you again for a meeting.

Then, over the call, they would explain to you the product (mobile app) and try to persuade you to make the deposit.

But this kind of campaign doesn't work well on discerning people like yourself.

It reminds me of Lucio's thread on someone approaching him to help with email campaigns:
Cold email & effective approach to making good money for marketing freelancers
The irony is that he's most likely using an automated email campaign himself to sell his service.

Bel has reacted to this post.
Bel

Remember the salesman who kept dodging my emails about the upfront cost for his offer?

Well, four months later and he finally responded (this time, in a completely different medium):

It's no wonder he kept dodging the question. He's asking for $40,000.

The debt-swapping was annoying (he initially framed it as if I would be the only one gaining from our collaboration) and the constant running from my emails to open new threads felt sneaky.

Now, after all the games, he has no social capital left to ask me for $40,000. He should've taken a higher-quality approach straight from the get-go.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoJohn FreemanMaxim LevinskyBel

Thank you for the update, Ali.

On top of poor social behavior, even the offer itself has a big red flag all over it.

Ali Scarlett and Maxim Levinsky have reacted to this post.
Ali ScarlettMaxim Levinsky
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Update from this case study:

Right when you thought he was done, he sends another message:

Gotta give points for persistence :).

Might give him the ol' Matthew message and call it a day:

Ali: "You may pass the offer along to your inquirers :)."

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmano

Was searching for some possibly good reviews and found this (quick) new case study:

Him: "If you bought the course you know what I mean (refuses to expend more effort in explaining to make the exchange more balanced). Please disclose it for us all (frames his selfish request as being not for him, but for "everyone here"/the community)."

Maybe a bit harsh on labeling it as a "selfish" request, but that's how it comes across to me.

He is:

  • Making an imbalanced request: it seems that there's no prior buy-in, rapport, social capital, or WIIFTs (at a first glance, without further context or information).
  • Power scalping: orders them to respond with the value he wants (and buy into this sucker's trade).
  • Social scalping (credit inflating): sets a frame of him coming to Reddit to make an ask only on behalf of the entire community, and totally ignores what's in it for him. And, frames it as if he's only come here to get value to give to others (how incredibly nice of him :).

Some people fell for it:

And, maybe it wasn't that they necessarily "fell for it", but he had more social capital with those members.

Others did a bit more to reject the order:

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmano
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