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Bel's thoughts
Quote from Bel on August 24, 2022, 5:54 pmThis happened to me today as I went to pay at a bar, in front of other people as well:
Me: Do you accept cards?
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper four sheets.
Me: (puzzled face) So you don’t?
Owner: Yes, come here. (points to POS machine and inputs amount; I pay)
Owner: Sorry, I have a delicate bottom.
Me: We all have.
Owner: Well, there are people who wipe on newspapers. Do you want a receipt?
Me: Yes, thank you.
Owner: I’ll give you the receipt and then print another for myself.
Me: (I take the receipt and turn around)
Owner: Goodbye sir and have a great day.
Me: (without turning) You too.
This caught me totally unexpected and all I could do was try to limit damages as above (removing warmth and not answering).
Unbelievable. Especially because he could have just said “no” and I would have paid in cash.
Yeah, seems like a crass style of bantering, I wasn't there, but just by reading the words, my feel was that of a "no biggies" situation.
What I thought on the spot as I read that:
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper four sheets.
You: OK, lemme go to the bathroom and I'll pay you with one of those then :)
But otherwise, you did well
In cases where I am caught unprepared such as this kind of scenario you're describing Bel and cannot find anything witty to say, I will always use the magic meta-comment technique such as "that's a weird thing to say/do" as advised by Lucio here. Then I become like a cat and can always land on my feet no matter what :).
Alternatively I could have said something like "that was not very funny you know, now will you take my payment or not?" with a big smile on my face (maybe too high in dominance and that could trigger escalation, but I find these kind of jokes too disrespectful).
I second Lucio. My interpretation was that the guy was being friendly, despite his (literally) toilet humour. I find it a little inappropriate, yes, but I wouldn't say disrespectful, as it was mostly self deprecating.
Not playing along as you did was great, as Lucio's approach to play along was great. Alex' suggestion of using stock meta comments may also be good - but I'd choose a less strong one and use it only if you deal with him frequently and he doesn't get it (while upping friendly signals to match his and limit the breaking of rapport ).
I believe the best advice for this situation is PU's lesson on how to deal with jesters.
More great posts.
Also, keep in mind that, unless what they say is offensive or disempowering, "joining the humor" is an option.
If I remember correctly, the last entry/reminder of dealing with jesters is "don't take yourself too seriously and remember to enjoy life / have a laugh" (of course, that's not valid anymore if the "joke" is offensive or heavily disempowering).
To join the humor, you may have commented that the 4-veils are the best, or something like that.
One more thought I had relative to technique (and this is new, let me know if helpful, may add it to PU as a quick entry):
Lead From Joke to Serious
I've seen this more than once put to great use in real life by high-power and life-effective folks (percentages are an estimate of how they weigh on the power dynamics):
- Engage with the comment, in the sense that you will reply rather than ignore, deny, push back, or enforce boundaries right away (20%)
- Lead in another direction, a new interpretation / angle / branch from the same topic, or simply add something (30%)
- Change the subtext from joke to serious, so you reject the "humor" subtext and instead reply in all seriousness. This is the crux of this technique (50%)
It's a form of pacing and leading, and the overall feel is that you're grounded in your own reality, unreactive to his jokes/games, leading, and power-up.
So it would work this:
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper four sheets
You: (serious, not angry, but straight face. Also, not necessarily looking at him, so you add the power move of "ignoring the person". Think it of "thinking out loud") yeah man, those may be worth some, I never understood why during Covid people hoarded toilet paper (instead of canned food)
Now if he follows along, you're the de-facto leader.
You set a new topic, moved from humor to serious, and he's following.
You must not stay stuck in "serious" mode though, and can later make your own jokes -actually, it's even better like that-.
So, later on, you may joke that "people will starve, but die with a clean ass. Not bad".
The main point is that you diverge from his initial frame.
If he doesn't follow, it's still high-power as you're not following and instead choosing and acting on your own preferences.
Or the same, but more abrupt (without the pacing) and hence higher dominance:
You: some people (<- a power move, it's slightly deaming to cluster him with a group of nameless "some people" who, in your frame, seem to be acting pretty dumb) love toilet paper. I never understood why during Covid people hoarded toilet paper instead of canned food
One more thought I had relative to technique (and this is new, let me know if helpful, may add it to PU as a quick entry)
It was very helpful, thanks, Lucio!
Building on Lucio's pacing and leading suggestion, Alex' on stock comments, and Bel's preference for shorter, smooth answers, what do you guys think of this one?
Me: Do you accept cards?
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper ("hygienic cards" 😁. Sorry guys I actually found it funny) four sheets.
Me: haha, good one (smile, acknowledge the joke, but then back to business)
Thank you Lucio, Alex and Kavalier for your great help.
I understand the joke about toilet paper may have not been motivated by this guy disrespecting me as I thought, but just by him being a jester kind of guy.
I still tend to align with Alex’s interpretation on this. I was a tourist in a tourist place, first time I see this bar guy. But it’s possible he just thought I would be cool with some bantering, and did not really want to communicate “you better pay in cash” as I thought.
Lucio’s first answer about paying with toilet paper would have been great anyways, because while playing along it subcommunicated “your loss you idiot”!
I instead basically just removed warmth to subcommunicate “I don’t appreciate this” (I think removing warmth has become my fall-back response when I am at a loss about what to do).
And I agree with Kavalier that the technique of leading from joke to serious is great!
Thank you Lucio for your comments on the other two posts about the negotiation thing and what to say after a red level move, which clarified things a lot for me.
Quote from Kavalier on August 25, 2022, 7:17 pm
Me: Do you accept cards?
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper ("hygienic cards" 😁. Sorry guys I actually found it funny) four sheets.
Yeah, in my language the pun with words comes across even better. That funny bas**** :-)
Quote from Kavalier on August 25, 2022, 7:17 pmOne more thought I had relative to technique (and this is new, let me know if helpful, may add it to PU as a quick entry)
It was very helpful, thanks, Lucio!
Building on Lucio's pacing and leading suggestion, Alex' on stock comments, and Bel's preference for shorter, smooth answers, what do you guys think of this one?
Me: Do you accept cards?
Owner: Yes, we also accept toilet paper ("hygienic cards" 😁. Sorry guys I actually found it funny) four sheets.
Me: haha, good one (smile, acknowledge the joke, but then back to business)
Yeah, I think it's great.
Low investment, closes the door to any other interaction.
And works even if you don't think it's funny, you can just reply "very funny" with a straight face as if to say "it's not funny at all".
These are very interesting perspectives, thank you for sharing guys.
It is always surprising to notice that for almost every situation that involves power dynamics, it seems that different people have different interpretations of it, and I find it very enriching to be able to read other power aware people's perspectives. I suspect having different interpretations has a lot to do with personality traits, so I guess people with similar personalities usually tend to have similar interpretations.
Anyways, in this case my reaction which is probably a bit confrontational tends to be motivated by past experience with similar situations. Every case of what I would call a "rude jester" stranger have been social climbing ones (or at least could be interpreted as much from my perspective). This became especially clear to me after his 2nd reply where he talks about wiping his a**, it felt like some kind of micro-aggression and I found it quite disrespectful. You are the giver and he is the taker in this interaction, but qualifies the money you will give him as material to wipe himself in the bathroom. And even though he is joking, it is quite dominant as well, considering that you are strangers, and that he is doing it in front of other strangers.
That being said, after second thought I believe that Kavalier's and Lucio's approaches are wiser because they are less reactive, this is probably not really worth to take things too personally and risk escalation with this kind of guy. I would still be careful to not give in into his frame though.
Great stuff in there!
I love the advanced answer “some people…” with the subtle frame change and one-up.
To me I actually find this a funny joke. He’s a person with dry humour. So he kept a straight face and you took it at face value. He was actually kind of testing you: will he take the piss or not. I think no disrespect was meant. He actually dug on the joke maybe hoping you would bounce on it at some point.
This goes back to empathy. These people say day in and day out the same stock questions and answers. That might be the way for them to have their little fun.
In these situations, for me the stock response is to…laugh.
He did not disempower you. The joke is actually: “we accept all kinds of payment, including toilet paper. BUT it has to be of high quality of course”. This is Monty Python kind of humour. It’s the absurd type of humour (look up “cheese shop Monty python in YouTube” if interested)
I think it’s a good joke. However it has to be delivered with a smile. I don’t know what was his body language. But his mistake was not to make it clear enough to you that he was joking or trying to joke. It happens to me as well. I’m making a joke (and rarely) the delivery is too serious.
So when I realize this was taken not as intended, I say: “jokes aside, …..” with a straight face and move on. So I make it clear it was a joke “but anyway let’s go back to the matter that brought you here” and deal with the situation seriously.
Sometimes I also dig deeper into the joke (insist on the joke) but I found it to be less effective as your situation is a good examen. If the person is not in the mood or does not have the same sense of humour or is a serious type then I only dig my own grave.
Since in my opinion he did not disempower you, it’s high power to laugh as it shows you’re not taking yourself too seriously and can banter in social situations (small talk, as you said you guys are strangers).
And if you’re busy/in a hurry, you can say after the laugh: “but seriously do you guys take cards?” With the smile still on your face.
People love that as you can make them have a little fun/smile during their day. It’s typically charmer kind of dominance. You make other people feel good. Even if you find the joke is not funny, a forced laugh will still be considered as polite as you allow the other to save face.
Cheers!
“Power” by Pfeffer
I read Lucio’s review of “Power” by Jeffrey Pfeffer: a treasure trove of usable information, confirming lots of dynamics I personally experienced. And also the idea that power hierarchies are inherent to human nature.
But the really interesting thing is that I had already read half the book years ago, and had not understood anything out of it. Which proves how one can be blind to the obvious until one starts to “get it”/becomes aware.
