Quote from B on September 7, 2022, 6:46 pm

Hi Guys,

I've been in sort of a "pause mode" recently, feeling a lot down and unable to do much.

I've also been going further through PU and reflecting lots. I am unable to go quicker through PU because many things I read lead me to have emotional thoughts and trigger some pain to be released.

Jotting down here something I reflected on.

Former inability to be assertive and protest led people to walk all over me

I realized the most important reason why many people trampled over me was simply that I did not know how to protest or be assertive.

I reread my former posts in this very journal and they seemed focused on self-defense and how to avoid that other people could behave in a way that hurt me, preemptively.

Now that I learned how to be assertive here, I realize that simply saying "I called you yesterday at the time we set, did something happen?" would have been enough to teach people not to treat me as "socially disposable".

I also realize my silence on every slight I encountered led many to think I was simply ok with being treated that way.

This in turn contributed to my reading malice and malevolence where none existed, as we discussed many times here on the forum. Because I assumed people could realize by themselves that not keeping pacts was nasty, that one-upping me was bad, etc., I inferred malice.

And of course also because of encountering one really bad person without understanding what he was doing.

Now I think most people are simply careless and need to be taught how one expects to behave. I instead taught everyone that I did not matter, and then went no-contact at the end when I couldn't take it anymore.

Exiting when things got significant or problems arose in social interactions

I realized one of my constant recent past tendencies was reaching a point in social interactions where the relationship could become more meaningful or where conflict showed up, and then exiting.

I remember one colleague to whom I had sent birthday wishes and Christmas wishes for three years. Last year she answered with "You are very kind and this kindness must be rewarded: as soon as covid is over let's meet for drinks".

And I did not answer.

At the time I thought I did not answer because her message was slighly off, and I was looking if she would follow up herself. Formerly, for a brief period in my life, I had also tried to answer with "let's do it on ..." and jump to proposing, and this did not work out well.

Now I realize there's a middle point; and also that it is better to respond to all emotional bids and have 80% fall through and take it with an antifragile ego, and maybe develop a friendship with the other 20%, then rebuffing everyone in (unconscious) fear.

Because most people are not bold or forward: they look for clues. It is not ideal, but it is what it is. A simple "with pleasure" on my side could have made a big difference.

Also, if she really was a bad person, I would have picked it up in person and could have closed it gracefully.

And of course this tendency of mine compounded with the factor above.

I am trying to reestablish limited contact with some significant people who hurt me much in the past

And this is triggering lots of anger, hurt, insecurity, and effort on my part.

While I was totally submissive in the past, I am now opposite and sometimes telling these people to their face what they did.

Not ideal, I know. All in all, it is a tough moment.

I realize my thinking in "downside terms" most of the times I learn something is an issue I must address

It limits my speed of learning.

I must consciously substitute "How bad I wasted all these years and destroyed these relationships" with something like "How nice I now can improve my life tenfold by doing this thing I just learned!".

But I think this tendency is also linked to a need to replay past interactions in my mind to learn how to apply what I am learning.

Also trying to apply what I am learning: addressing the implied question for a favor

One example: I sent an invoice to one manipulative person I cut contact with in the past, and this is the email exchange that followed:

Him: Hi Bel,

in pleasantly getting these news I wanted to thank you for the great work performed.

I wanted to ask you if you know when they will pay me this sum.

To pay you do I make a wire?

I immediately thought he was trying to link him receiving payment from the counterpart to him paying me.

While this is something I would usually accept, I did not want to make this favor to this person due to his past behavior toward me.

Me: Hi,

please proceed to wire my fees as you say.

Kind regards

Him: Hi Bel,

but do you know when they will pay me? Because as soon as I get paid I will make the wire to you.

Thank you

I immediately think I must either surface the implied question or just deny the implied request, and I choose the latter:

Me: Dear X,

please proceed to the payment immediately, I also have deadlines and expenses and I can't wait further.

Him: Hi Bel,

Ok to wire you, but you didn't answer my question do you know when they will pay me?!

Thank you

Me: Thank you, term of payment to you is 30 days.

Bel

Him: Hi Bel,

perfect thanks a lot.

Can I make the wire to you on ... since I receive my salary on that day?!

I now think since he asked openly I can agree, but want to show little investment:

Me: Yes that's ok,

bye X

Quote from John Freeman on September 7, 2022, 8:13 pm

Hey man,

Good stuff! I think you're going through what Mark Manson calls a "pain period". Where you realize a lot of negative stuff that was inside of you and you're facing it. I call it: "looking in the mirror". I might already have told you that. Anyway, it's a good thing! As everything you see now will slowly be part of your past, little by little.

You're the man! You'll be proud of you for facing this! :)

I'll write more later about the content.

Cheers!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 7, 2022, 9:52 pm

Good to hearing from you again Bel!

Albeit you say you're going through some challenging times, I see more positives in your post (and a great post, BTW).

Quote from Bel on September 7, 2022, 6:46 pm

 

Him: Hi Bel,

in pleasantly getting these news I wanted to thank you for the great work performed.

I wanted to ask you if you know when they will pay me this sum.

To pay you do I make a wire?

I immediately thought he was trying to link him receiving payment from the counterpart to him paying me.

While this is something I would usually accept, I did not want to make this favor to this person due to his past behavior toward me.

Me: Hi,

please proceed to wire my fees as you say.

Kind regards

You know the situation better, and I think that you also know now that your answer was very dominant, disempowering to him, and rapport-breaking.

If that was your choice, great.

From the outside, I would have first addressed his question.
Even if you wanted to cut every opportunity for further dialogue, answering his question might have been more effective so he didn't have any excuse to ask again.

And I'd even have vibed with him (I might have done so even if he was manipulative, simply because it often works better):

Me: Hi,

Yeah, same here, glad we won this, congrats!

Their payment term is net 30.

please proceed to wire my fees as you say.

Kind regards

But then again, I'm just looking from the outside and don't know what happened before.

Quote from B on September 7, 2022, 10:17 pm

Quote from John Freeman on September 7, 2022, 8:13 pm

Hey man,

Good stuff! I think you're going through what Mark Manson calls a "pain period". Where you realize a lot of negative stuff that was inside of you and you're facing it. I call it: "looking in the mirror". I might already have told you that. Anyway, it's a good thing! As everything you see now will slowly be part of your past, little by little.

You're the man! You'll be proud of you for facing this! 🙂

I'll write more later about the content.

Cheers!

Thank you so much for your support John!

Quote from B on September 7, 2022, 10:33 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 7, 2022, 9:52 pm

Good to hearing from you again Bel!

Thanks Lucio, it’s a pleasure to be back here and to talk to you again.

Albeit you say you're going through some challenging times, I see more positives in your post (and a great post, BTW).

Thank you, it’s all a bit painful but your positive view and support gives me more hope I can get better.

Quote from Bel on September 7, 2022, 6:46 pm

 

Him: Hi Bel,

in pleasantly getting these news I wanted to thank you for the great work performed.

I wanted to ask you if you know when they will pay me this sum.

To pay you do I make a wire?

I immediately thought he was trying to link him receiving payment from the counterpart to him paying me.

While this is something I would usually accept, I did not want to make this favor to this person due to his past behavior toward me.

Me: Hi,

please proceed to wire my fees as you say.

Kind regards

You know the situation better, and I think that you also know now that your answer was very dominant, disempowering to him, and rapport-breaking.

If that was your choice, great.

From the outside, I would have first addressed his question.
Even if you wanted to cut every opportunity for further dialogue, answering his question might have been more effective so he didn't have any excuse to ask again.

And I'd even have vibed with him (I might have done so even if he was manipulative, simply because it often works better):

Me: Hi,

Yeah, same here, glad we won this, congrats!

Their payment term is net 30.

please proceed to wire my fees as you say.

Kind regards

But then again, I'm just looking from the outside and don't know what happened before.

Thank you for this. Indeed I have been very nasty.

The worst he did (apart from making me work for free many times when I was naive and starting out) was to get invited years ago to a holiday with me and other friends in my parents’ house; then he got drunk on purpose and tried to make me lose my patience with constant microaggressions, and to humiliate me publicly repeatedly, one afternoon and evening in front of all.

I got so enraged I swore to myself I would never talk with him again, but I had already taken this work for him and begrudgingly decided to bring it to conclusion.

I omitted from the above my first email where I sent him my invoice though:

Hi X,

I have the pleasure to send you the final decision in our lawsuit against …, where our counterpart was condemned to pay you Y.

I take the opportunity to enclose my invoice for the work performed and send you my kind regards.

Nonetheless I see that your answer was much better, as I could have still refused his demand to pay later even after responding to his question.

And your suggestion to remove reasons to write back on his side by answering his question is golden.

I think I wanted to show him that I was not weak anymore, and that what he did that day would not be repeated: I pushed the envelope deliberately.

In any case he was so bad he is out.

I have been trying to release my internal grudges against people who wronged me in the past, but have been mostly unsuccessful so far.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 7, 2022, 10:50 pm

Got it, got it, then your anger towards him was totally fair (I think we shared this story once by the way).

And your answer can be totally fair.

On the other hand, one can also release internal grudges to people who wronged you with a cold smile and distant kindness -cold and distant being the key- while also relentlessly pushing for what you want.

That can accomplish both:

1. High mental power of being emotionally unaffected
2. High social power of not being naive or weak anymore, putting yourself first, and going for what you want

The only difference is that you cushion #2 with the bare minimum of civility, but the message of power is still there.

And while anger can sub-communicate to the asshole that he still got an emotional hold on you, the cold and distant kindness denies that emotional leverage.

The distant kindness and fake smile instead can say "I'd kill you, but coldly. You're not under my skin, and until we meet in civil society, have no problem playing the game".

A bit like that Mad Men video.

Finally, the distant kindness can also increase the odds of getting what you want.

Edit:
Typos, + added underlined sentence.

Quote from B on September 7, 2022, 10:59 pm

Thank you, it’s a great thing to implement and I’ll try to do so from now on.

I imagine cold and distant kindness is conveyed with just a bit more formal kindness than the situation warrants.

On the side, I remember one particular interesting move this guy always made.

I would invite him to a restaurant where I used to go frequently, usually while he was my guest (in the sense that I was hosting him) in a place where we were on holidays.

He would always find a way to make nasty plays in the restaurants I went to.

I remember once he lamented with a restaurant owner that a dish was not lamb but another kind of meat. In front of me. I thought he was sincere and did nothing.

The last time I met him (which was what I mentioned in my post above) we were in another city and in another restaurant I used to frequent, where I had invited him and others.

He waited until the end of the evening and then he said to me in front of the restaurant owner:

Tell me Bel, do you ever leave a tip?

I think he was deliberately trying to destroy my connections, one move I have seen many abusive folks share.

Quote from John Freeman on September 8, 2022, 7:45 pm

Quote from Bel on September 7, 2022, 6:46 pm

Now that I learned how to be assertive here, I realize that simply saying "I called you yesterday at the time we set, did something happen?" would have been enough to teach people not to treat me as "socially disposable".

Exactly. My favourite mindset is to ask them out of curiosity. This gives them the benefit of the doubt and give them an out to save face in case they did fucked up. It's an open question so they can choose their answer.

I also realize my silence on every slight I encountered led many to think I was simply ok with being treated that way.

Yes. In French we have a saying: "who says no word consents". That means that a silence is interpreted as a yes.

This in turn contributed to my reading malice and malevolence where none existed, as we discussed many times here on the forum. Because I assumed people could realize by themselves that not keeping pacts was nasty, that one-upping me was bad, etc., I inferred malice.

I'm guilty of that as well. I think it has to do with being burned by malevolent people. We get actually train to see malice where none exists. We can heal from that though.

Exiting when things got significant or problems arose in social interactions

I realized one of my constant recent past tendencies was reaching a point in social interactions where the relationship could become more meaningful or where conflict showed up, and then exiting.

I think this is important for you to introspect on as in "Why do I exit when conflict show up?", "What am I afraid of when conflict show up?"

Because most people are not bold or forward: they look for clues. It is not ideal, but it is what it is. A simple "with pleasure" on my side could have made a big difference.

I think it has also to do with expressing one's emotion and desire. This ties back to self-esteem (check Nathaniel Branden if interested), meaning the belief that "I'm worthy of expressing my emotions and my desires"

I am trying to reestablish limited contact with some significant people who hurt me much in the past

This I don't understand why. Is it because you cut ties in an unfair way? What is the thought process behind this?

I realize my thinking in "downside terms" most of the times I learn something is an issue I must address

It limits my speed of learning.

I must consciously substitute "How bad I wasted all these years and destroyed these relationships" with something like "How nice I now can improve my life tenfold by doing this thing I just learned!".

Yes, it's this is a mindset issue. It's about turning negative thoughts to positive thoughts. Not in a la-la land way but in a practical way: what is my power now? What can I do now? The past is inaccessible to us.

Also trying to apply what I am learning: addressing the implied question for a favor

One example: I sent an invoice to one manipulative person I cut contact with in the past, and this is the email exchange that followed:

Him: Hi Bel,

in pleasantly getting these news I wanted to thank you for the great work performed.

I wanted to ask you if you know when they will pay me this sum.

To pay you do I make a wire?

I immediately thought he was trying to link him receiving payment from the counterpart to him paying me.

While this is something I would usually accept, I did not want to make this favor to this person due to his past behavior toward me.

I think here if you did not want to help him (totally your right), you could have said: "Maybe it's easier if you contact them directly" or "I'm sorry I don't know".

I think the interaction you take as an example shows the amount of anger that you have against this person. This leads to passive aggressiveness. You're never saying you're angry nor using angry words but the text reeks of anger. So I think that one thing that could help you is to reflect on the expression of your emotions. I sense that you have a lot of bottled anger from years of not having expressed your anger when you were harmed/abused emotionally. If you want to open a thread or a post on this specific topic, meaning if that resonates with you, I'll be happy to contribute.

Another concept that could help you is the concept of layered emotions. I'll make an assumption here which might be totally wrong. Let's say you are ashamed to be angry. See here, there are layers of emotions. So to address the anger, it is necessary to address the shame. The emotions we don't express stay within us I found in my experience. So we go layer by layer.

Something I forgot, maybe you already said it: have you considered therapy? I think in case of abusive parents it's very helpful. As we are more easily scarred and hurt as children.

In case my feed-back is too direct, please let me know.

All in all, you are clearly moving forward! I wish you the best and a great week-end!

Update:

My perspective on Lucio's answer, to contribute to the conversation you guys had (I'm jumping in) :

My favourite way of dealing with this now (if you want to get in touch again) is what Lucio called "distant kindness". It's socially intelligent as you can still have social exchange without emotional exchange. That's actually how most people deal with one another and I learned it in the past year or so. Previously I was having strong feelings for many people: either good (was expecting too much in terms of closeness) or bad (was in an enemy frame with them). So I think it's a good step towards a higher emotional maturity.

The other solution Lucio proposed: "cold distance" is more advanced I think as it asks to be emotionally distant and analytical as to get what you want. I mean more advanced as it requires more emotional self-mastery. You are cold but display no aggression nor anger. It's more detachment and people cannot read you. Powerful stuff. I call it "Robot mode" as in the Godfather for instance. Pure machiavellianism. Powerful stuff as I said. I found out it's good to learn it and good to be able to use it. However, from my experience it's not enjoyable to spend 24/7 in this emotional/mental mode. So it's a great tool to be used as needed.

Quote from B on September 8, 2022, 9:00 pm

Thank you John,

your post is very helpful.

No you aren't too direct. In fact therapy is something I did, both before and after my awakening.

As to the reestablishing limited contact with some significant people who hurt me: they are close relatives, and recently I have seen, from one of them, a small start at changing ways and mindset.

This person entered therapy at my request some months after I interrupted contact. I have not seen significant change, but some change I have seen, and I recently started trying to have a (painful) phone dialogue, and I am now considering some form of therapy together.

But it's true that I fear it may be a cosmetic temporary change with no significant lasting change. At the same time, after learning from PU and TMP, a part of me is asking if I could be "strong and detached enough" to keep contact with them in any case.

If you have comments on this, please feel free to share them.