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Bel's thoughts
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 15, 2023, 8:31 amHello Bel,
You know me and nitpicking me, so I wouldn't necessarily say those articles prove it (I haven't seen any conclusive meta-analysis in there though I may have missed it in my skimming), but they do provide some supportive evidence.
This is very similar to the examples of what makes someone "manly" in the alpha male article -including the mask, who does the chores home, etc.-.
Some people, especially the more alpha-male minded and/or conservative equate displays of "strength"/stoicism/adherence to typical male roles as proxies for power/manliness and how much respect to afford to a man.
So, yeah, it matters... But up to a certain point.
If it rains a lot and you can avoid getting wet as a fish, then it's probably better to use an umbrella -plus, if you're going to meet someone, it's not going to make a great show to arrive dripping wet-.
For the record though, there are 2 umbrellas here at my place, but some people left them.
Yeah, I agree. I would still use an umbrella if I need to meet a client outside... but then I would probably hide the fact that I used it.
That said, it's interesting that the more I learn from TPM and PU, the less I am tending to use umbrellas. The other day I went out without an umbrella and it started raining, and I used a cardboard sheet to cover me. In the past I always used to carry an umbrella.
And the most interesting part of your answer to me was this:
I've never personally owned an umbrella.
:)
Quote from Bel on May 15, 2023, 9:55 amBut the best part of your answer to me was this:
I've never personally owned an umbrella.
🙂
Yep, you got it :).
I purposefully added it there.
Last time we spoke you made me realize of a latent bias/disconnect many people can have -and certainly I sometimes have- between what they may advice and what they may themselves do in the same situation.
In that case, the disconnect was to advise on being more prudent in taking action and/or jumping to conclusions about someone's character, while I was personally much faster to draw boundaries, act, or distance someone.
What one does is not necessarily "better" than what one says, but it's still an important source of information.
OFF-TOPIC
By the way, when I used to go out for approaching, I loved rainy days (as long as it wasn't pouring like crazy, of course).
The rain is somewhat romantic, gives a sense of "common inclement weather" we're both up against, and a sense of spontaneity.
As in... It must be "natural".
Who'd be so stupid to go out on a rainy day, without an umbrella, just to approach?
Well... Me, that's who :D
OFF-TOPIC
This is very very interesting. I think it may be the basis for a study or article on it.
There is, indeed, a general human tendency to do what's most effective, but to discount those things that seem "politically incorrect" or "crazy" as "personal quirks", and then to teach/advice others with a sweetened, politically correct version of what one has learned.
This probably depends on several factors:
- [ADDED] sometimes, one doesn't know what he's doing, meaning that some actions are simply unconscious;
- sometimes one does something that works, but doesn't know why it works. This may lead to think it doesn't impact results, while in fact it does incredibly;
- sometimes, one does something that can't be said or exposed, as it is "politically incorrect", or even outright bad or unethical (though it still obtains better results);
- sometimes, one may simply unconsciously not want others to be "exactly as successful as one is", and limits advising by omitting something, or unconsciously "saves something for oneself";
- [ADDED] sometimes there is an inherent conflict between what one is trying to obtain by advising others (ie, first personal income, and only then results for clients) and the success of the clients.
I am sure these factors (unconsciously) impact myself as well in how I behave in writing on this forum, or in advising my clients, for example.
But, in my experience, those "personal quirks" always, without fail, turned out to be the real golden nuggets of what makes one successful.
And by the way: I learned to be wary of what people explicitly say, if they do something else, from you.
Yesterday you wrote the exact same thing in regards to people advising others to "use the scarcity principle ethically", and then using it every time they could.
It's obvious people DO what's most effective, invariably. If nothing else, because the brain is simply incapable of behaving worse than the best to obtain results.
What one says, on the other hand, is almost always a sweetened up version, due to the above unconscious biases.
EDIT: there is a great scene in the recent TV series "Fleishman is in trouble".
He is a lead doctor at a clinic and works with younger doctors he is training.
He talks on the phone with an external doctor who treats him badly.
The external doctor power moves heavily, and Fleishman puts him in place by checking the power move, and cutting the phone call short.
Then he turns to his younger trainees, and says:
You don't do this.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 15, 2023, 10:09 amOFF-TOPIC
By the way, when I used to go out for approaching, I loved rainy days (as long as it wasn't pouring like crazy, of course).
The rain is somewhat romantic, gives a sense of "common inclement weather" we're both up against, and a sense of spontaneity.
As in... It must be "natural".
Who'd be so stupid to go out on a rainy day, without an umbrella, just to approach?Well... Me, that's who 😀
OFF-TOPIC
You know what I'm going to say here... :)
It's not you. It's purely the best choice to approach women without an umbrella, and something that has a disproportionate impact on results.
Because it's not generally known, nobody does it. It increases perceived masculinity, it simply works.
I would now do the same if I started anew.
Quote from Bel on May 15, 2023, 10:15 amThis is very very interesting. I think it may be the basis for a study or article on it.
There is, indeed, a general human tendency to do what's most effective, but to discount those things that seem "politically incorrect" or "crazy" as "personal quirks", and then to teach/advice others with a sweetened, politically correct version of what one has learned.
This probably depends on several factors:
- sometimes, one does something that works, but doesn't know why it works. This may lead to think it doesn't impact results, while in fact it does incredibly;
- sometimes, one does something that can't be said or exposed, as it is "politically incorrect";
- sometimes, one may simply (unconsciously) not want others to be "as successful as one is", and - even when one is paid to provide advice - limits advice to the least important factors, or in any cases "saves something for oneself".
I am sure these factors (unconsciously) impact myself in how I behave in advising my clients, for example.
But, in my experience, those "personal quirks" always, without fail, turned out to be the real golden nuggets of what makes one successful.
It is very interesting indeed.
And I agree with your entries.
Well deserving of an article, indeed (took note).
It's the old paradigm of "look at what one does, not what he says".
This is what I'm not convinced about though:
Quote from Bel on May 15, 2023, 10:15 amBut, in my experience, those "personal quirks" always, without fail, turned out to be the real golden nuggets of what makes one successful.
I don't think that's always the case.
For example, in that "alpha male article" + what we discussed in the forum, some of the examples are:
- Alpha males don't wear masks
- Alpha males don't use umbrellas
- Alpha males don't marry
- ....
These are common examples of what you'd see in the red pill, "be more alpha/masculine" type of male self-development corners.
And if I'd have to look at my own behavior... Well, then I'd have to add my +1 on all of them (I also had this thing where I told myself I'd never purchase a mask).
BUT...
It wouldn't necessarily be good advice across the board -or for all situations-.
Take marriage, for example, most marriages fail.
So for the average guy, to say "watch out with marriage" is great advice.
But "never get married" is stupid advice.
Especially when you're giving advice to people who aren't "average".
Many of the most uber-successful men are married (in part because the stability of the relationship sallows them to focus on other areas of their life compared to those who have to spend time looking for new dates).
Plus, it's well proven that a good marriage (or LTR) has strong positive effects on health.
Even if I look at myself only, I'm much more nuanced.
If it rains a lot, I have no problem using an umbrella -just because I never even thought of purchasing one to keep at home, doesn't mean I can't make the most out of one-.
(Also, approaching during the rain works better when you're both shielded. If you're approaching during the rain and she's having an umbrella but you don't, it puts undue pressure on her to cover you up, and that's often too much when you first meet someone).
Yes, the law of optimum balance is always in play.
And, different people want different things - if I go to meet a client, better not get wet and not focus on approaching women without an umbrella.
But to me that doesn't detract from the validity of what one does to obtain his personally wanted results.
Meaning: if another person wants to obtain the same results, those actions are what most probably counts - not necessarily what that person says or even thinks he does.
If nothing else, because the results that are there are for sure a result of actions, not thoughts or advice.
In fact this gives me one additional motive for the discrepency between the personal actions and the advice:
- one does things in his life to obtain results
- one advises others in his professional "teacher/advisor role" to obtain (first) income, and (only second) results for his clients.
The success of the advising professions, in other words, does not mainly depend on obtaining results for clients: it mainly depends on obtaining money/income.
You know what they say about lawyers having an incentive to create more conflict to obtain more income.
Now: the more ethical one is, the more one will be able to align the two, and even be amenable to sacrifice short term income for better results for his clients.
But the bias is there for everybody. Since it's unconscious, it will likely come out in ways one does not see.
And, changes in one's personal situation (for example, if one is starving) can and do change the impact of the bias.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 15, 2023, 10:30 am(Also, approaching during the rain works better when you're both shielded. If you're approaching during the rain and she's having an umbrella but you don't, it puts undue pressure on her to cover you up, and that's often too much when you first meet someone).
Maybe we'll field test this sometime in the future :)
Some additional thoughts on this:
- the phoenomenon can be more or less nuanced and "intense". To the extreme end of the spectrum, I had so many former "friends" who used to advise me to do something, that they wouldn't do in their lives:
I had "friends" advising me to settle down with unattractive women; friends who used to advise me to be generous (to them); my former boss who used to advise me to "do the right thing everytime" and was the sleaziest asshole I ever encountered; my parents who told me to behave politely and obediently and would insult and abuse me everyday to tie me down and control me; colleagues who would try to collaborate with me to only get from me; teachers who would teach useless stuff just to be paid; people giving counterproductive advice that damaged me for their gain.
Initially I thought it was because I was surrounded by dark triads; now I'm starting to think it's a general human tendency, due to the above biases.
- there are some sections in SU about settling down with women to "not struggle" with learning how to interact with women, that I would consider removing or toning down
Not because one can't do it, but because i) in starting out with women, one simply doesn't know what kind of woman is going to be compatible, both emotionally and sexually; ii) the woman one chooses in starting out is (very probably) simply not going to be really, "womanly" attracted to a man who has not learned his way with women; IMO it's going to end badly.
I myself have seen dramatic improvements - and, also, changes that require much personal reflection - in my relationship after studying PU and SU and learning more about how to be high-power.
BTW, what you wrote above as to the rain reminded me of this scene:
Quote from Bel on May 15, 2023, 10:59 amSome additional thoughts on this:
- the phoenomenon can be more or less nuanced and "intense". To the extreme end of the spectrum, I had so many former "friends" who used to advise me to do something, that they wouldn't do in their lives:
I had "friends" advising me to settle down with unattractive women; friends who used to advise me to be generous (to them); my former boss who used to advise me to "do the right thing everytime" and was the sleaziest asshole I ever encountered; my parents who told me to behave politely and obediently and would insult and abuse me everyday to tie me down and control me; colleagues who would try to collaborate with me to only get from me; teachers who would teach useless stuff just to be paid; people giving counterproductive advice that damaged me for their gain.
Initially I thought it was because I was surrounded by dark triads; now I'm starting to think it's a general human tendency, due to the above biases.
I think those may be two very different things:
- Advice that is purposefully misleading (always works poorly for the receiver)
- Advice that is different than what one personally may do (which may not or may work well for the receiver. It's not a given at all that advice that is different than one what would personally do is bad advice for the receiver)
I still see it as a big law of balance and situation.
Going back to the original example of the umbrella, let's not forget the forest for the trees.
The umbrella thing is a small tree, and it's very situational.
There is no loss for a man in carrying an umbrella if he carries himself with confidence.
As a matter of fact, a beautiful and classy umbrella on a rainy day can be the companion of a manly gentleman who cares about his appearance (a plus, plus high status).
The only trouble is if the umbrella is associated with not enough manliness / power, in which case it reinforces the low power and life effectiveness of that man (ie.: security-seeking, glass-half-full type of thinking for expecting rain rather than sun, prioritizing small-time comfort instead of getting shit done, etc.).
It's also the "glass ceiling advice" issue.
If one was not manly enough, then "don't carry umbrellas" may be correct -and sound right to him-.
But the more advanced one gets, the more it's about nuances and situations (and breaking those "lower level rules").
Quote from Bel on May 15, 2023, 10:59 am
- there are some sections in SU about settling down with women to "not struggle" with learning how to interact with women, that I would consider removing or toning down
Not because one can't do it, but because i) in starting out with women, one simply doesn't know what kind of woman is going to be compatible, both emotionally and sexually; ii) the woman one chooses in starting out is (very probably) simply not going to be really, "womanly" attracted to a man who has not learned his way with women; IMO it's going to end badly.
I myself have seen dramatic improvements - and, also, changes that require much personal reflection - in my relationship after studying PU and SU and learning more about how to be high-power.
That may certainly be the case, thank you for bringing this up.
Do you remember where?
Would gladly take a look at it.
