Quote from B on June 20, 2023, 10:10 am

BTW, on the point of having invested too much already, I have some thoughts:

• I understand having an initial call of 1 hour and half may have been a mistake, maybe best to keep it shorter
• as to the initial call, I still think it's best not to have prospective clients pay it, for two reasons: i) I don't want them to feel "bound" to go forward with me; ii) I also need the call to see if there is a "good feel" to work together;
• as to the future, with my fee quote I asked her for a retainer which may rebalance things if we go on.

But, I see you have been trying to give me feedback on this many times, and I still haven't fully gotten it.

So I am happy to read any feedback, if you have any, on what I may be doing wrong here and how I could improve things.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 20, 2023, 11:45 am

Hello Bel,

As I think you may have noticed, I'm always wary of providing specific advice when I don't think I'm in the position to do so.

My general favorite approach is to provide high-level advice that works well.
To do that, I want to have first-hand experience, depth of expertise, and know the research literature.

That's often doable.

For more specific advice though, the requirements of what I should know to speak competently are a lot higher.
I should have witnessed the events, and know details that I often do not know via forum posts.

Gut feelings also matter.
And if I feel "sure enough", I'll share.

So if I spot a very obvious mistake, I often feel confident enough to give strong advice even with just a few lines (see a recent thread with Power duck and a dominant and gaslighting "friend").

But if I don't feel sure enough, then I'd rather not push any advice because I wouldn't be doing my job well.

That would reflect poorly on me, and likely do a disservice to the receiver since I may even lead people astray (ie.: "the expert has spoken". But in that case the expert was just tossing a coin, and I'd rather not toss coins :).

Edit:
also, the issue here is mixing general best practices with specific cases.

Yes, I think 1.5h is definitely too much for a smaller project.
But again, it depends on the project, and the specifics of one's approach/job (where you have far more depth of expertise), and one can definitely find a way to make it work well.

Quote from B on June 20, 2023, 11:55 pm

Ok, thank you.

It’s very clear.

For more context on the specific situation, the project entails a substantial luxury real estate purchase that would mean a potentially significant fee for me. So the balance in the exchange may still be there.

I see your point concerning the fact that my issues are starting to be more “special” to my field.

I still find much much value in reading your point of view on everything I post here, as I (keep) finding concrete help in going forward based on your super-advanced “power dynamics reading” of situations. Including in this case.

And as I said in another context, the responsibility in deciding how to go forward is always mine.

So thank you, Lucio.

Quote from B on June 21, 2023, 12:02 am

Client whose fees I waived returned to me after one year of silence on both sides

I wrote at length here about my decision to waive some fees for work done for a historic client of mine, who had stopped responding to my calls and texts - after several power dynamics mistakes on my side (including me being sketchy, unsure, implicitly asking for reassurance from him, looking for him to lead, not handling calls well, calling him unannounced, assuming his not answering me was due to a “mistake” on my side, etc.).

I had waived my fees, and later regretted it.

Well: now he has contacted me again after one year of silence on my part.

And he is asking me for work. Which I’m doing, and now I’ll definitely invoice at the end of each month.

He is being very “thankful”, and he seems sincere. I also find myself behaving very differently now with him. Now I know the value I am providing and do not feel he is making me a favor, as in the past.

I am still unsure whether my waiving the fees was good or bad, but since he returned it may have been a not so bad decision.

But who knows what would have happened if I had made him pay at that time.

Maybe in the future I’ll have the counter proof to that, though now I’m a different person so we still won’t see how it might have gone :)

Quote from B on June 21, 2023, 12:18 am

Machiavellian Revenge

Quoting Lucio from AR’s journal:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 19, 2023, 5:02 pm

Quote from Astronomically Revolutionised on June 19, 2023, 1:27 pm

so, when a few days later  Judy called again,

I said "No I cant"

she just hung up without saying another word.

and I never heard from her again.

BTW, this is case where I'd consider some Machiavellian revenge.

Suspending the "be straight/assertive", and possibly even the "make friends" (/don't make unnecessary enemies) general rule.

For example:

Judy: send car
You: sure, coming (don't send anything of course)

When she calls again, you go:

Judy: still waiting, nobody the driver didn't show up
You: busy now, call in 5 minutes I'll check

When she calls again, don't pick up.

Then FADE.

Let her invest more and more, reach out and chase more nad more.

You reply late, less frequently, with fewer words...

That's a good way to "make her pay".

Or after a few times, you may say:

You: I heard some crap around

Let her explain, ler her guess, ler her invest.

Then up to you whether to say "you fucked up" or to just end without a closure.

Very interesting. It’s something I could do with the guy who originated the concept of manipulative thread expanding (who, btw, still owes me that effing dinner).

If he ever will get in touch again to invite me to that dinner, I’ll say “sure, coming…” :)

Quote from B on June 21, 2023, 12:47 am

Progressively escalating raging

We discussed raging and triangular raging.

I reflected on another abusive power move I witnessed many times, which we can call “progressively escalating raging”.

It works like this:

the rager starts complaining to a person.

Whatever the person says, and even if the person does not say anything, the rager will progressively escalate tone, loudness and complaints, and start raging “properly”.

The escalation can occur in bursts of progressively louder projected anger, but it can also occur while keeping a “cold tone” and only escalating in content, for example in threats and insults.

The escalation can go on for half an hour. And it can end in a full shouting rage.

The move is particularly effective because it induces not only fear, but also impotence.

Subconsciously, the recipient will “feel” (not necessarily consciously) that there is nothing that he or she can say or do that can make the rager stop.

After several instances, the recipient may just stay still and silent in fear, waiting for it to end. That’s what I used to do, at least.

As always, it can be deliberate or unwitting, especially if unconsciously picked up as a kid from a dark triad parent.

If unwitting, the rager will unconsciously interpret the silence or the responses of the recipient as offensive, and this will be the internal “justification” for the escalation.

I have yet to find a way to handle this.

In my experience, staying silent does not work.

Responding in rage does not work either, it only gets to a progressive, mutually-hurtful escalation.

Quote from B on June 21, 2023, 10:52 pm

Inducing reactive abuse

Inducing reactive abuse is a manipulation technique that dark triads employ consciously, and other people can employ unconsciously, by deliberately provoking the mark into overreacting by acting passively-aggressively and using covert aggression.

While I initially thought that the reason for inducing reactive abuse was to publicly paint the mark as the abuser and the real abuser as an innocent victim, today I had an epiphany:

inducing reactive abuse is mostly meant to exploit the natural feeling of guilt in the mark (due to him reacting abusively) to soften his boundaries and ply his will, and make him accede to the demands of the manipulator.

This is the first and foremost reason why some people induce reactive abuse.

Some examples I personally witnessed:

- a father asking his child to help him in some housework. When the child refuses, the father covertly provokes the child into getting angry and shouting, and then gaslights the child into believing that he is angry for no reason and has treated the father badly. The child then feels guilty and goes to help the father.

- parents covertly provoking an adult child whenever he goes to visit them with his partner. The child then gets angry, seemingly for no reason, and the parents paint him as an angry child who is using his parents as innocent receptacles of his ”anger at the world”. The child then feels guilty, and is induced to keep contact with the parents to make amends even though his natural instinct would be to get away from the abuse.

Of course it can be used for much more nefarious purposes.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 21, 2023, 11:39 pm

Interesting, Bel.

I remember my first girlfriend quarreled with her mother when I was there.

When we left, the mother came to the door with a box of food to let her bring home.
I clearly remember her facial expression that to me was close to a "beaten dog" expression.

I thought it was a nice gesture to try to recover and end on a positive.

But when we left, my girlfriend said:

She did that to make me feel guilty

Looking at her dejected expression and tone, it worked, too.

I was a bit shocked at the time, thinking how nasty that was.

I wouldn't be so shocked today because it's relatively common.
But still no less nasty.

The "toxicity of everyday life".

Could make for a great book title, by the way...🤔

Quote from B on June 22, 2023, 2:24 pm

Manipulative technique: "putting the ball in the other's court" and "assuming the burden of action is on the mark"

This is a real email one person I know received while looking for work, without having interacted with these people in this specific situation:

Re: Confirmation of job interview

Dear,

We tried to contact you, but without success.

In this case of a lack of response, please be informed that today's interview is confirmed.

We remain awaiting for your quick response.

Kindly,

X

This is a common technique from dark triads and manipulative people: assuming the burden of action is in the other person's court for simply having received an email or a proposal or request.

The strategy leverages the submissiveness of certain people, and the tendency to feel "guilt" if not behaving super-politely at all times. It self-selects only the most manipulable "candidates" for the pyramid scheme.

Best strategy is not to answer at all, of course. Any response is going to be manipulated.