Quote from B on July 3, 2023, 12:27 pm

Hi Lucio,

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 1, 2023, 2:36 pm

Let me know if you think should be in PU (and if so, if you have an idea about where, also very helpful).

Yes, it would be a great addition for sure. In a way, I suppose, the principle (not to fall into the frame of antagonizing everyone) is embedded in PU already, but having it clearly spelled out would be great.

As to the location, I suppose the lesson (that you mentioned is in-the-making) about group power dynamics and status could be the best place.

As to my personal workplace dynamics - how the story ended

I told only part of the story above.

After I left the firm, as you know my boss asked me (or rather triangulated me) to return.

To this aim - after he had poisoned the well and painted me as being "against the whole workplace", which I fell into when going away - he started triangulating me with all my former colleagues, by letting know my former colleagues that losing me was a "great loss" and that he would have been glad to get me back at double my former pay.

He triangulated me for two reasons, I now see: one, he didn't want to lose power by calling me directly; two, he wanted to be able to renege on his "double your pay" stunt - which was just bait and switch.

All of a sudden my colleagues started calling me up to tell me he wanted to speak with me, and was ready to get me back at double pay.

I called him, went to speak with him, and while he maintained the frame that he wanted me back and I was "important", he implicitly reneged on the "double pay offer" - as he offered me only a slight increase.

He even reneged on having lunch with me: on the phone he told me he would bring me to a restaurant to speak, then when I got there he offered me to eat some cold cuts at his firm (I'm not joking).

I refused his offer to rejoin. I told him we could collaborate from our respective firms.

He entrusted me with the real estate matter I spoke about in the past - the one where I ultimately recovered, with your help, what he owed me.

All the while he continued to sing my praises to all the firm, in the hope I would fall back into his frame.

In those six months, I even got entrusted by another senior lawyer in the firm with one big project. My former boss tried to get involved, by both playing me and my colleague, but we both refused. He escalated and painted himself as "after my colleague's client" in front of all the firm.

Then, at the end of the real estate project, I abruptly stopped going there, and stopped responding to him.

But - alas for him - so far he had continued to sing my praises to everybody.

Now him abruptly reverting to speak badly of me - which he surely did, by triangulating others - probably did not go down well for him.

He hanged himself with his own hands. And, I suppose I unconsciously played a part in that.

Many times I asked myself what I was doing there again in those six months.

Now I now I unconsciously wanted to redress what he had done to me - and, finally, show him and others that he was not so powerful after all.

Which was complete when I recovered what he owed me.

EDIT: And may be even more "complete" when, in three more years, I defer him to the bar for the last email he sent me.

Quote from B on July 3, 2023, 8:58 pm

Dark triads create dysfunctional environment dynamics that are paraded for normal, with the aim of discouraging the mark from continuing to work (or have friends, or have a relationship, or have a family) elsewhere

Dark triads brainwash people in two fundamental ways:

• one, they blame the victim for their abuse through gaslighting (which we already discussed);
• two, more importantly, they create on purpose dysfunctional environment dynamics that they parade for normal.

I suppose this may be called a form of gaslighting, but it is much more difficult to recognize.

I have many examples of this second dynamic, which IMO is very very important to recognize - as recognizing and becoming aware of it can make the difference between sticking it out in a normal parallel environment, or dropping the ball for life.

Example: My former boss tried to convince me that all law firms are like his

When I got out of my former boss's law firm, I had a phobia of entering another law firm again.

I thought - my only solution here is to go solo and open my practice.

Now I see that my former boss encouraged this kind of thinking with countless manipulations, to encourage me to stay isolated and - ideally, from his POV - to even change career field.

I remember him saying to me, after each episode of some egregious mobbing and abuse on his part against me:

Boss: Bel, maybe you don't have what it takes to make it as a lawyer.

The subcommunication here is not only

You are not ok

which would have been gaslighting enough. Rather, the subcommunication is:

All law firms - heck, all legal work as an attorney - is as "stressful" as the "stress" (abuse) you are experiencing here.

In other words, he wanted me to associate working as a lawyer with his covert abuse.

From his POV, this made perfect sense:

• one, there was a possibility I would simply not go away. After all, if "all law firms are the same" (as I heard another colleague of mine who worked under him say), what use is there in changing firm?
• two, there was a possibility I could go away, work on my own, and "not make it". What better situation to pick me up again for more abuse?
• three, there was a possibility I could go away and stop working in the legal field (or, even worse, stop working altogether).

Number three seems tricky from a normal person POV. But from a personality-disordered individual's perspective, it makes perfect sense:

If I can't "have" him, no one else should "have" him.

I have read countless stories of former attorneys working in other firms and then changing career altogether after encountering a manipulative higher-up.

Now I see it's something that happens "on purpose".

Now the thing is: not all law firms are run by someone like that.

But if one does not understand this dynamic, one is going to "drop from the game" and not play for life.

Quote from John Freeman on July 3, 2023, 9:49 pm

Yep. Same in medicine. These people want you to believe that all hospitals are like theirs. But then I encountered people who worked in different hospitals and they were appalled and left as fast as possible this toxic one. Then I worked in another hospital (the current one) where I'm treated with respect. So yeah definitely brainwashing which works the best with novices in the field.

Some people stay slaves to this their whole career. They climb up the hierarchy of a dysfunctional organization. Either because it's their current best opportunity or because they believe they cannot find a better one. I've seen it in science as well. And they play on their ego as the organization has prestige. I witnessed it in MIT where I worked for instance, but this is true of many large organizations (Nestlé, etc.) that give people status. The deal is structured like this: "we give you this status through our name, reputation, financial/technical means, network and next opportunity careers and you give us your loyalty, time, energy, youth (and mental health and self-esteem)". One has a better status as a toilet cleaner at Nestlé than at McDonald's. Stupid but true.

100% agree with you, thanks for sharing, Bel!

Quote from B on July 3, 2023, 11:25 pm

Thank you, John.

And another abusive technique of great effect these people use to cover past abuse:

Criticizing the mark for the (negative) results of the abuse

or

Praising the victim as if the positive result (that the victim obtained  in spite of the abuse) was favored by the abuser

While these seem two different things, they are two prongs of the same gaslighting:

- if one mark, for example, convinces himself after countless abuses that he is unlovable and unworthy of friends, or that he is an introvert, or that he is unable to work, then the abuser will start criticizing the mark for being “antisocial”, or “a burden at work”.

It is very very effective and compounds the gaslighting, with the effect of often making the victim very ill.

- Praising the mark for his positive results (which in reality were achieved in spite of the abuse, not thanks to be boss, father, etc.) is the other prong.

It subcommunicates that the abuser helped the employee, son, etc. in achieving the result.

It simultaneously covers the abuse, gaslights the victim, and subcommunicates to all others that the abuser was a good boss, father, etc.

In a normal person’s mind, no one would praise another for achieving something the “praiser” was against.

No one normal, that is.
A dark triad definitely would, if nothing else to cover past abuse.

EDIT: Needless to say, my former boss did both. When I was about to leave his firm, he criticized me to the death for what he himself was provoking.

When I got back there, the first thing I heard from him was praise for “having become a great lawyer able to make it on my own.”

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 8, 2023, 11:27 am

Quote from Bel on July 3, 2023, 8:58 pm

Dark triads create dysfunctional environment dynamics that are paraded for normal, with the aim of discouraging the mark from continuing to work (or have friends, or have a relationship, or have a family) elsewhere

(...)

Great stuff, Bel!

Added it to PU's lesson with a link here.

By the way, as usual, and I think you know this, I'd differentiate here between "honest tought talk" or "honest belief" VS more manipulative / toxic patterns.

For example, a guy who says:

Nobody's meant to make you any favor, life is not meant to be easy, and you gotta shape up

This may be fair to say to someone who's placing demand on others without making sure he's providing value.
Or it may be a honest belief of someone who sees the world more as a competition.

On the other hand, as you say, it's a very convenient and potentially manipulative / gaslighting approach to, for example, frame relationships as inherently aggressive, painful, or emotionally draining (especially if the guilt is placed on the receiver).

Quote from B on July 9, 2023, 2:43 am

Thank you, Lucio for your kind words.

Linking here for my future reference to the idea of "favor tasking" from this post here.

Quote from B on July 9, 2023, 1:30 pm

Clothing store fitting room lady power moves 

I was with Bella in the fitting rooms section of a large chain clothing store.

There were 8 fitting rooms, a corridor in front of them, a rather big antechamber, and another corridor leading out of the antechamber.

One store lady was at a desk in the antechamber.

Bella goes in a fitting room, and I stay waiting in the antechamber to avoid crowding the corridor near the fitting rooms.

From there, I can still see Bella when she comes out with the clothes she is trying on, and give her my opinion.

Then this ensues:

Store lady: Please do not crowd the area in front of the fitting rooms, any accompanying people stay out.

Me: (I am already in the antechamber, not in the corridor with the fitting rooms, and I stay still)

Store lady: Please any accompanying people stay out of the antechamber.

Me: (I move - taking 1 or 2 steps backwards - to the corridor leading outside, but stay near the entrance to the antechamber, from where I can still see Bella when she comes out of her fitting room. In other words, my view is the same)

* click on blockquote to expand

Then things start getting nasty. From her.

Store lady: Please go at the end of the corridor out of the fitting rooms entirely, it’s too crowded here.

(Another guy waiting for his girlfriend complies and goes all out, to a place from where he can’t even hear anything anymore)

Me: (I do not move; I say to the store lady:) You’re exaggerating now. You’re starting to exaggerate.

Store lady: You need to go out.

Me: I will stay here where there is space and where I can see my partner.

Store lady: There are other people in the corridor.

Me: There’s enough space.

* click on blockquote to expand
She then tries to pull a “you’re I’ll-mannered” judge frame on me.

Store lady: You need to respect those who work. The first thing is manners you know.

Me: Which do not seem to be what I am missing here.

Store lady: The customer is always right.

Me: (I say nothing but start thinking: I might be now winning this: she’s submitting)

Store lady: Ok, just go near the fitting room where your partner is, so you don’t crowd the corridor. (In other words she’s now saying: “just go near the fitting room, don’t mind what I said initially”, as if she was making me a favor)

Me: (thinking this is the last try on her side with a “mother hen” tasking power move) No, I’ll stay here.

Store lady: Clerks may pass with heavy things in the corridor.

Me: In which case I’ll let them pass.

* click on blockquote to expand
Then she finally stayed silent.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 10, 2023, 6:39 pm

Nice on, Bel!

Very dominant, pushed that until its very end.

I may have stopped at a middle of the road and "went near the fitting room".
Would have saved her face, and you'd have been even closer (I seem to guess from the description).

But I'm not saying that one was the "better option".

It's great to sometimes just push till the better end just to learn (and that's also valid if one "loses").

Quote from B on July 10, 2023, 7:07 pm

Thank you, Lucio.

I was worried if I followed up on her "final invite" I would have come across as looking for an "easy exemption from the general rules."

But, I see you are right and I should have done so, if nothing else to avoid making an enemy.

These days, I was/am starting to think I must somewhat dial down my power-responses and general behaviors - which I have pushed up to the far limit so far with these kinds of people.

When I encounter an attempt at dominating me, it's as if a switch flips in my head and I go:

"This is a bad person. I have to go all the way now, no mercy".

This tendency to go all the way, I realize, is not something that started with TPM. It was in me before, when I did not have the skills to even do so.

It's something I likely internalized from people around me when growing up. I suppose now it's time to lose it.