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Bel's thoughts
Quote from Bel on December 26, 2023, 11:11 am(...)
Me: You know what you said about the anti-freeze, it was untrue, there was plenty there. Why would you lie to me?
Relative: So you went there?
(...)
Just some random reply to avoid giving them the pleasure of victory (or to at least jolt them a bit):
You: You know what you said about the anti-freeze, it was untrue, there was plenty there. Why would you lie to me?
Relative: So you went there?
You: no of course not, I just heard about it
Relative: you heard about it?
You: yeah, I gave the key to a friend, I hope it's OK with you. He said it was dirty though.Â
And then you can laugh and tell them you're just joking.
But now you had him react to you, and you're leading.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 26, 2023, 11:22 amQuote from Bel on December 26, 2023, 11:11 am(...)
Me: You know what you said about the anti-freeze, it was untrue, there was plenty there. Why would you lie to me?
Relative: So you went there?
(...)
Just some random reply to avoid giving them the pleasure of victory (or to at least jolt them a bit):
You: You know what you said about the anti-freeze, it was untrue, there was plenty there. Why would you lie to me?
Relative: So you went there?
You: no of course not, I just heard about it
Relative: you heard about it?
You: yeah, I gave the key to a friend, I hope it's OK with you. He said it was dirty though.Â
And then you can laugh and tell them you're just joking.
But now you had him react to you, and you're leading.
Thank you Lucio, this is awesome!
Will do if this catches me inadvertently next time.
Just to share, what I said in reality instead was:
You: You know what you said about the anti-freeze, it was untrue, there was plenty there. Why would you lie to me?
Relative: So you went there?Me: Oh no, I must have confused myself. Anyways...
I now understand that my answer was due to the fact that I unconsciously wanted to "even the lying score", because my lie was as obvious as his.
But he couldn't point out my lie without giving me the "reason" to point out his as well.
Though I failed on the "divulge information" power move: he still got the information, because I didn't understand why he had lied until today, after the conversation.
What sick relatives I have.
EDIT: Though this conversation gives me an idea:
- lying in response to a lie may be effective, because it forces the liar to accept your lie for fear of you retaliating by pointing out his original lie.
It basically "evens the manipulation score", and sends a message of tit for tat:
if you want me to be truthful to you, be truthful to me. If you want to drown in a sea of bullshit, just continue trying bullshitting me.
I read Lucio's review of The Fund.
Very enlightening, and also very interesting to see some parallels with my former boss:
- exploiting employees crying to demean them: something my boss also did. I remember how he would look at me disgusted and condescendingly offer me tissues after I cried once for the mobbing he himself had inflicted on me;
- directing former employees to go back to his office (me, when I demanded to be paid for my work). The interview explains very well the reasoning behind it and why it's a power move to make former employees go back to the place of former subservience to discuss anything; now I understand why I refused.
The main problem with manipulative people is that what they do and/or are prepared to do is so far out there, that no normal person will believe you by definition when you recount it.
By the way, I was watching these two videos yesterday and I thought they were interesting.
Posting the two excerpts/snippets with no comment:
Fallon: We didn't have enough controls of normal people in the experiments.
So I brought my family in including myself, some of our kids, my brothers, and the pet...
Scans were brought to me by two technicians but when I got to the end of this pile there was one there: one scan and I just looked at these technicians, I said:
"This is hysterical guys, you got one of the psychopathic killers... this scan is obvious this guy can't be walking around an open society, he's a very dangerous person..."
[then] I had to peel back the tape over the name of who it was, and it was my name.
Also Fallon:
Fallon: I always had heard and considered myself a really nice good guy...
There have been little punctuated things along the way from the time i was probably 10 or so that were unusual that would pop out every once in a while.
From my perspective everything's okay.You know, I never thought I ever tried to hurt anybody really, and any sort of thing that I did I've always considered play.
Abuse technique: continually triggering unresolved emotional debt/grief to keep people stuck
This is a technique that many abusive people use, that only now I see clearly.
It is very subtle and sneaky, and all the more effective for that.
Emotional debt
Emotional debt is a catchphrase to signify unresolved past emotional trauma/wounds.
When the body/mind system capacity to handle negative external stressors is overwhelmed, the mind temporarily stores emotional trauma in the body, waiting for a safe time and place to unload it bit by bit.
This is the "grieving process". It is a process which is designed to make people stay alone, and cry, and process past trauma by feeling its effects intensely.
In a way, the "emotional debt" system works like a temporary placeholder for pain and trauma. It is designed to allow people to keep functioning in society at the moment when the hurt is first felt, and to allow people to postpone the grieving.
When a person later takes the time to grieve, the system works as intended. The grieving process rids the person of past trauma, and the emotional debt is resolved.
The person is "emotionally free".
Unresolved emotional debt
The issue is that sometimes:
- people don't grieve (because they associate it with "weakness", not understanding that it's totally natural), or worse
- others deliberately don't allow people the time and space to grieve.
Focusing here on the second situation:Â many abusive people deliberately try to continually trigger past unresolved hurts and traumas in others, precisely to keep them "stuck" in emotional debt.
The grieving process is designed to allow the person to resolve his pain little by little, in a "safe environment". It cannot function if a person is continually triggered emotionally.
So what do abusive people do? They continually try to bring back the mental focus of the hurt person on the trauma or betrayal they endured, with the aim to keep them stuck.
Examples
A narcissistic mother continually "reminding" her daughter of the fact that her ex-boyfriend is now happy and is about to marry another person.
A former colleague forwarding me past emails by my former boss (that I already had, as they were addressed to both of us at the time), where my former boss would disparage and criticize me.
A "friend" continually poking fun at a person's supposed "shyness", in order to constantly reopen the wound and let it fester.
Significance
Some people's subtle offhanded remarks are nothing other than them poking their fingers at a possible "emotional wound", to see if it is still open and to possibly keep it festering.
It is akin to a person continually putting a finger in a wound to avoid the same wound closing.
How to resolve the issue
To resolve the issue, and thus nullify abusive people's power over us, we need to separate for a while.
The separation is inevitable, to let the emotional wounds/debt resolve itself: which will happen by grieving our losses/wounds in a safe place.
Once the wound is resolved, one will find that abusive people's nasty remarks will lose their power.
When I received my former colleague's message forwarding me the past email from my former boss, I only felt that he was being weird.
He, instead, wanted to wound me. But I had separated from him and from my former boss, and processed the hurt.
This is the biggest testament to having healed: finding that what wounded us in the past is now just odd, fun and weird.
Something abusers will never be able to do, as they are fraught with unsolvable emotional wounds.
My personal opinion: learning to handle power moves without going through the separation may still keep one "unhealed"
This is because, even if I learn how to socially address the power move, and thus make the abuser pay a "social price" for his remark, some abusers will sense that they were still able to reopen our unresolved wound, and will thus continue.
This, IMO, is one of the reasons why some people who learn to address power moves, but do not resolve the emotional trauma by grieving, continue to find that others keep power moving.
In other words, in my opinion, there are cases where one cannot heal without going no contact for at least the time needed to heal the wound.
The only thing that will make abusers stop power moving for good is:
- learning to handle power moves, PLUS
- curing our emotional wound that was formerly triggered by their power move.
One without the other will leave a person still surrounded by people who continue to try.
Waiter tries to gaslight me to make me pay more
I went with Bella to a restaurant I frequently go to.
The waiter told me they had happy hour for drinks (50% off).
I told him ok, we'll get a glass of sparkling wine.
He says, "it's a small glass, do you want two?" I say no, just one and we'll share.
Then I told him I had a coupon for a free starter, from the same restaurant - they give you the coupon after completing a survey on your last visit.
He tells me "Ok, but you need to order at least 20$".
"Yeah I know, we'll get this free starter and this main dish".
Worth noting is that the very same waiter had accepted another identical coupon for a free starter on my last visit.
During the dinner, the waiter is "too present": constantly asking if everything's good, to the point of becoming somewhat obnoxious.
At the end of the dinner, I ask him for the bill and give him the coupon.
I am a bit puzzled that last time, the waiter had asked for my coupon before serving the starter, but I don't think much of this.
Gaslighting starts
The waiter comes to the table and gives me the bill.
However: on the bill, the starter is not free, but fully priced.
And, worse, the waiter doesn't say anything to me about this.
He just hands me the bill.
I say:
Me: Look, as per the coupon I gave you, the starter is free. Here, instead, it is fully priced.
Waiter: Yeah! Unfortunately when I entered the coupon in the system it didn't apply any discount, so it's probably not valid.
Me: What are you talking about. The coupon was given to me by your restaurant, and it's clearly specified that it's valid for one free starter.
Waiter: Let me call a colleague.
* click on blockquote to expand
My heartbeat goes noticeably up
I start to have heart palpitations.
The last time this happened was while speaking on the phone with a relative who was gaslighting me.
And the previous time it happened was in a legal mediation where the mediator was in a covert agreement with the counterparty and was gaslighting me.
So I think:Â "This waiter is gaslighting me".
At this point, it's not the coupon anymore.
It's that I HATE GASLIGHTERS.
I think: "I WILL STAND FIRM TO THE BITTER END HERE, DON'T CARE IF THIS SOB IS FIRED".
Other waiter comes and tries to gaslight me as well
Other waiter: So I think maybe the coupon is not valid.
Me: Here is the coupon: it clearly says it is valid for a free starter dish.
Other waiter: You had to order at least two dishes to use the coupon.
Me: No, not at all. The coupon clearly specifies that the only condition is ordering for at least 20$. Which I did. Also, last time I used an identical coupon and he (pointing at the waiter) correctly applied the coupon. And tonight I also told him (pointing at the waiter) that I wanted to use the coupon from the very start of this dinner.
Other waiter: We need to call the manager.
Me: Please do.
* click on blockquote to expand
Manager comes and has to agree with me: the coupon is valid
Manager comes.
He looks at the coupon, goes back inside, comes back to the table:
Manager: We apologize. We applied the free starter. Sorry for all the time and inconvenience we caused. If you could send us the coupon by email, we'll look into why it didn't work.
Me: Thank you. Here it is (I send it to him).
* click on blockquote to expand
Manager goes away.
Waiter: I told you there was a problem with the system.
I think: "you sick gaslighting bastard".
But I effectively won, so no point in saying that.
The final bill is still partially wrong, and the waiter continues to gaslight: I point it out, then let it go
The waiter brings me the bill where the starter has been discounted.
There's just one problem: the drink is priced in full instead of 50%.
Me: Look, the bill is still wrong. The happy hour means this drink should be priced 50%.
Waiter: Well but you can't apply the coupon and the discount together.
Me: You should have told me that when you mentioned the happy hour.
Waiter: Well but you should have told me of the coupon first, while you only gave it to me later.
Me: That's not true. I told you I had the coupon at the exact time I ordered the drink 50% off. But since it's only 3$, I'll let it go for this time.
Waiter: Thank you.
* click on blockquote to expand
This confirms the waiter was gaslighting me: he was not interested in the facts, he was only twisting the facts to obtain that I pay more.
The instant I pay more, he doesn't care about the facts anymore: he only says "Thank you", and slivers away.
This is one big insight into who are the gaslighters by the way: the very moment they "win", they let go of the facts and stop wanting to revisit the past (which, in contrast, they insisted on framing in their favor up to that moment).
Of course: because they know that if the past was revisited, the victim would be able to point out all the bullshit they said.
I personally found that my gaslighting relatives straight out refused to talk about the past, when I became able to point out their lies with precision.
Aftermath
I suspect that the real reason the manager asked I email him the coupon was to know who I am in case I left a review.
Which I will definitely do in any case, after some time. And they can bet it's not going to be good.
I also suspect this waiter wanted to maximize my spending to get more of a bonus or something.
Just a reflection I had today:
the real value of buying an online course is not in the content, but in gaining personal access to the person who created it.
That alone justifies paying the price.
It's similar with regards to any advisor: you don't always pay for what he gives you in the specific case, but rather because paying allows you to keep access to him and his expertise and help.
In a way, you subsidize his living so you can keep access to his help, and vice versa.
- Inverse relationship between "trying to understand the psychology of other people" and "having effective life skills".
While I was unaware of how to be assertive, gain respect, etc., it was essential for me to understand how other people think and why they act.
But the more one is effective in life, the less this level of depth in others' psychology is probably necessary.
At the higher level, what does it matter what others think and what their motives have, if I am high power and high status and effective and have protection?
I mourn all the time I lost studying all of this to just protect myself. I could have accomplished stuff. Instead I was forced to just survive.
- Manipulators steal your life away.
They steal your time and your life away. That's the main reason to stay away from them.
Even if you successfully check everything they throw at you, you are still wasting your days playing a turkey game.
What's the point. At a certain level, you don't want to discuss anymore. You just want to live a good life.
If one started alone, or stayed away, at least one would have a chance.
- Getting back the joy of relationships.
Getting it back is a long, arduous journey after trauma.
I still refrain from doing things, being expansive, being close to people, because I fear it can be used against me.
But doing so prohibits relationships, it's no way to live.
I hope my social nature, that they stole, will come back in time.
- Life is played on the offense, not on the defense.
I'm continuing to evolve, I believe.
I see more and more understanding and life effectiveness.
Also, I am currently studying areas of life I had neglected totally (dressing well, mostly, and latest area: investments).
But I'm also continuing to pay a "pain price" for this continued growth.
Sometimes the new understandings come together with mourning, grief, sadness. Sometimes crippling sadness.
Initially I thought this was only me. Recently saw some videos on youtube and I am starting to realize that each of us mourns for what was lost.
Still painful, though. Sometimes very.
But for sure beats the alternative of putting one's head under the sand to not see.
Because then the pain will hit all at once, mostly at the end.
Cold was pain was aliveness
I went out for a walk the other day.
I usually walk in the evening, and it's cold. But, for all the walks I went on this winter, I never used to wear scarves or gloves.
This time though, for the first time, I did wear a scarf, and gloves.
While I was walking, I didn't think about it.
Then yesterday, I had a difficult phone call with one of my relatives. I came out of it very shaken.
I went out for a walk. This time, with no scarf or gloves. Again.
Then I asked myself: why?
Why did I never use to wear scarf and gloves even when it was cold?
And why didn't I wear any after the call, even though I had seen - the very day before - that they were useful?
That's when I understood.
I used to need the cold and the pain from the cold to feel alive, to feel something among all the numbness.
And, after speaking with this person, I needed to feel pain again...
