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Breaking the vicious Circle

#1 · February 16, 2021, 9:34 pm

Hello everyone,

first of all English is not my first Language. So there will be mistakes in my Text. But i m not drunk or anything like that ;)

Another First of all: Great content. Please keep up the good work.

Now here is the question: there is something that confuses me. If a girl pulls back for no (obvious) reason you dont want to do the same. Because otherwise you risk to start a vicious circle. That makes perfect sense to me. But: if you do not pull back yourself (at least a bit). If you are normal or stubbornly giving it is a reward for her bad behaviour. Isnt ist? For me it seems to encourage her to pull back even more in the future. What is the Solution to this?

That brings me to a similar Problem. I knew this girl who testing me hardcore. Most of the time the tests were all accusations. You dont care about me. You are not there for me if i need you. You dont Love me. You just want me for sex. Etc. As a reply i tried some of the tactics from this site (mostly tactic 2 and 3, sometimes 1 and 6). And it often did the job (i think). But here is the question: if these accusations are definetly not True and she knows that. Isnt her behaviour plane rude and disrespectful in this case? I think one of the Most important priciples is to never tolerate disrespect. So How do you handle it if she keeps up the accusations. At some point you have to enforce fair boundaries. Dont you?

All ideas and suggestions are highly welcome.
Thanks.

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#2 · February 16, 2021, 10:15 pm

Hello Marco,

Welcome here and thanks for the kind words.

It sounds like you're referring to a specific article when you say you did "2 and 3" and sometimes "1 and 6", right?
But which one is it, or what are those tactics?

Anyway:

Quote from Marco Muenchen on February 16, 2021, 9:34 pm
But here is the question: if these accusations are definetly not True and she knows that. Isnt her behaviour plane rude and disrespectful in this case? I think one of the Most important priciples is to never tolerate disrespect. So How do you handle it if she keeps up the accusations. At some point you have to enforce fair boundaries. Dont you?

I was glad to read that, you put the finger on the right button.

Yes, that behavior sounds like what we'd call "nasty games", such as value-taking games and power moves.

And yes, you don't want to feed that behavior.

Rather than "punish" though, which might drag you down a viciou spiral of win-lose, I'd first go with assertiveness and going meta, such as:

explaining what she's doing -making up false accusations-
maybe add a "why" -maybe you want to get more attention from me"
add why it's bad -but that's not the way to get more attention because it's gamey, covert aggressive, and generally unfair towards me-
explain what she can do instead -what she can do when and if she needs you, and the behavior you generally like to see in your relationship-

Then, after you made everything clear, if the behavior continues, you can start moving into the conseuquences, which might also be step 5 by the way:

tell her what will happen if she keeps the gaming behavior: she is killing your love, and you will have to ignore her requests and distance yourself for a while

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#3 · February 17, 2021, 3:00 pm

Quote from Jack North on February 17, 2021, 3:00 pm
Lucio has exactly the right strategy here for cutting this behavior off immediately. Pointing it out and showing how it doesn't work can be very effective, but in my experience it often doesn't work in the moment when emotions are high as it can come off very accusatory when not done with enough empathy.
Another strategy I've found effective in situations like this is to meet her on her level. That doesn't mean being petty or mean though.
Usually in an argument like the ones you described, the girl is speaking emotionally and the guy is speaking logically. When that's the case, you're both entirely missing each other with your points and all that will happen is you'll both end up getting hurt because all your efforts seem to be getting you nowhere. Instead, try to meet her and speak with her emotionally rather than logically. I would recommend using the word 'feel' and 'seems like' a lot, being careful not to accuse her of things.
You dont care about me. You are not there for me if i need you. You dont Love me. You just want me for sex. Etc.
Instead of saying, "Yes, I do care about you!" maybe you can frame it as a question - "What makes you feel that way? I feel like I care about you a lot, but it seems like you're not feeling it too. Is there something we can both do to make us both feel more stable?"
This emotional engagement will often disarm her and help her calm down a little bit because the reason they lash out emotionally like this is that they're looking for attention, yes, but very specifically they are looking for emotional attention. Because you're now doing that, she can calm down a bit while you engage emotionally, then you can explain things back up to the logical side. "I understand your feelings, and now that we understand how we can better communicate, I think things will be easier in the future. But I also want to tell you that lashing out at me emotionally doesn't help me connect, it makes me feel like you're trying to push me away more." Notice how as I brought things back to reality when telling her not to lash out, I framed it as emotional, how it makes me feel.
This strategy is, of course, not acceptable in a situation of outright disrespect, but in a relationship where you and she are on two different wavelengths, it can really save a lot of headache and heartache.

Lucio has exactly the right strategy here for cutting this behavior off immediately. Pointing it out and showing how it doesn't work can be very effective, but in my experience it often doesn't work in the moment when emotions are high as it can come off very accusatory when not done with enough empathy.

Another strategy I've found effective in situations like this is to meet her on her level. That doesn't mean being petty or mean though.

Usually in an argument like the ones you described, the girl is speaking emotionally and the guy is speaking logically. When that's the case, you're both entirely missing each other with your points and all that will happen is you'll both end up getting hurt because all your efforts seem to be getting you nowhere. Instead, try to meet her and speak with her emotionally rather than logically. I would recommend using the word 'feel' and 'seems like' a lot, being careful not to accuse her of things.

You dont care about me. You are not there for me if i need you. You dont Love me. You just want me for sex. Etc.

Instead of saying, "Yes, I do care about you!" maybe you can frame it as a question - "What makes you feel that way? I feel like I care about you a lot, but it seems like you're not feeling it too. Is there something we can both do to make us both feel more stable?"

This emotional engagement will often disarm her and help her calm down a little bit because the reason they lash out emotionally like this is that they're looking for attention, yes, but very specifically they are looking for emotional attention. Because you're now doing that, she can calm down a bit while you engage emotionally, then you can explain things back up to the logical side. "I understand your feelings, and now that we understand how we can better communicate, I think things will be easier in the future. But I also want to tell you that lashing out at me emotionally doesn't help me connect, it makes me feel like you're trying to push me away more." Notice how as I brought things back to reality when telling her not to lash out, I framed it as emotional, how it makes me feel.

This strategy is, of course, not acceptable in a situation of outright disrespect, but in a relationship where you and she are on two different wavelengths, it can really save a lot of headache and heartache.

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#4 · February 17, 2021, 4:18 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 17, 2021, 4:18 pm
Quote from Jack North on February 17, 2021, 3:00 pm
Lucio has exactly the right strategy here for cutting this behavior off immediately. Pointing it out and showing how it doesn't work can be very effective, but in my experience it often doesn't work in the moment when emotions are high as it can come off very accusatory when not done with enough empathy.
Another strategy I've found effective in situations like this is to meet her on her level. That doesn't mean being petty or mean though.
Usually in an argument like the ones you described, the girl is speaking emotionally and the guy is speaking logically. When that's the case, you're both entirely missing each other with your points and all that will happen is you'll both end up getting hurt because all your efforts seem to be getting you nowhere. Instead, try to meet her and speak with her emotionally rather than logically. I would recommend using the word 'feel' and 'seems like' a lot, being careful not to accuse her of things.
You dont care about me. You are not there for me if i need you. You dont Love me. You just want me for sex. Etc.
Instead of saying, "Yes, I do care about you!" maybe you can frame it as a question - "What makes you feel that way? I feel like I care about you a lot, but it seems like you're not feeling it too. Is there something we can both do to make us both feel more stable?"
This emotional engagement will often disarm her and help her calm down a little bit because the reason they lash out emotionally like this is that they're looking for attention, yes, but very specifically they are looking for emotional attention. Because you're now doing that, she can calm down a bit while you engage emotionally, then you can explain things back up to the logical side. "I understand your feelings, and now that we understand how we can better communicate, I think things will be easier in the future. But I also want to tell you that lashing out at me emotionally doesn't help me connect, it makes me feel like you're trying to push me away more." Notice how as I brought things back to reality when telling her not to lash out, I framed it as emotional, how it makes me feel.
This strategy is, of course, not acceptable in a situation of outright disrespect, but in a relationship where you and she are on two different wavelengths, it can really save a lot of headache and heartache.
Great, great message!
This approach will also tell you a lot about her -and about you-.
If she stops those games after you show yourself as willing to help and collaborate, that's a great sign -and it means you probably weren't providing for her basic emotional needs-.
And if she keeps playing the same nasty games, well... That's not a good sign.

Quote from Jack North on February 17, 2021, 3:00 pm
Lucio has exactly the right strategy here for cutting this behavior off immediately. Pointing it out and showing how it doesn't work can be very effective, but in my experience it often doesn't work in the moment when emotions are high as it can come off very accusatory when not done with enough empathy.
Another strategy I've found effective in situations like this is to meet her on her level. That doesn't mean being petty or mean though.
Usually in an argument like the ones you described, the girl is speaking emotionally and the guy is speaking logically. When that's the case, you're both entirely missing each other with your points and all that will happen is you'll both end up getting hurt because all your efforts seem to be getting you nowhere. Instead, try to meet her and speak with her emotionally rather than logically. I would recommend using the word 'feel' and 'seems like' a lot, being careful not to accuse her of things.
You dont care about me. You are not there for me if i need you. You dont Love me. You just want me for sex. Etc.
Instead of saying, "Yes, I do care about you!" maybe you can frame it as a question - "What makes you feel that way? I feel like I care about you a lot, but it seems like you're not feeling it too. Is there something we can both do to make us both feel more stable?"
This emotional engagement will often disarm her and help her calm down a little bit because the reason they lash out emotionally like this is that they're looking for attention, yes, but very specifically they are looking for emotional attention. Because you're now doing that, she can calm down a bit while you engage emotionally, then you can explain things back up to the logical side. "I understand your feelings, and now that we understand how we can better communicate, I think things will be easier in the future. But I also want to tell you that lashing out at me emotionally doesn't help me connect, it makes me feel like you're trying to push me away more." Notice how as I brought things back to reality when telling her not to lash out, I framed it as emotional, how it makes me feel.
This strategy is, of course, not acceptable in a situation of outright disrespect, but in a relationship where you and she are on two different wavelengths, it can really save a lot of headache and heartache.

Great, great message!

This approach will also tell you a lot about her -and about you-.

If she stops those games after you show yourself as willing to help and collaborate, that's a great sign -and it means you probably weren't providing for her basic emotional needs-.

And if she keeps playing the same nasty games, well... That's not a good sign.

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#5 · February 17, 2021, 7:45 pm

I agree with both gentlemen. In the case of this woman, I think the 3 questions you have to answer are:

"Is she crazy or not?": meaning is her behavior transitory or ingrained/fixed?
"Are we expecting the same from this relationship or not?": if she expects commitment and you don't want to commit then that would explain her behavior as a desperate attempt to guilt-trip you into commitment. A tactic, but not a fair one as you would enter the relationship reluctantly (out of fear not out of love). Make sure you are on the same page. Otherwise, you are both sliding slowly but surely into lose-lose territory.
"Are we compatible?": Here are three articles from Mark Manson that could be helpful: article 1, article 2, article 3. There is a fourth one that I cannot find anymore. Basically, it said that you need compatibility in values, personality and lifestyle (I remember correctly). It does not mean they have to be the same. But it does mean they have to be compatible.

So if all are green, meaning, she's not crazy, you are expecting the same thing from this relationship and you are compatible, then all the strategies described by Lucio and Jack are fair. These strategies can also help you gain more information regarding point 1 above. However, if one of this question is "No", then I would prepare myself to exit this relationship as soon and as smoothly as possible. Because it would mean the ship is sinking slowly.

I hope this helps.

Cheers!

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#6 · February 17, 2021, 10:00 pm

„It sounds like you're referring to a specific article when you say you did "2 and 3" and sometimes "1 and 6", right?

But which one is it, or what are those ?“

I was referring to the article on passing shit tests. Cause in my opinion first and foremost these accusations are shit tests. Or to say in in different words: i did not want to drop the bomb immediately. You know sometimes ignoring, owning your reality or shaming her did the job ... so my question was more about what to do if she crosses the line! I think that is what you call nasty games...

anyway: thanks for your answer! Ist helps me a lot.

#7 · February 17, 2021, 10:05 pm

Another strategy I've found effective in situations like this is to meet her on her level. That doesn't mean being petty or mean though.

Great Idea. I ll try that one to the next time.

Thanks.

#8 · February 17, 2021, 10:18 pm

P.s. Would you recommend assertiveness in the Situation below too?

Thanks in advance.

Now here is the question: there is something that confuses me. If a girl pulls back for no (obvious) reason you dont want to do the same. Because otherwise you risk to start a vicious circle. That makes perfect sense to me. But: if you do not pull back yourself (at least a bit). If you are normal or stubbornly giving it is a reward for her bad behaviour. Isnt ist?

#9 · February 20, 2021, 10:00 pm

Quote from Marco Muenchen on February 17, 2021, 10:00 pm
Cause in my opinion first and foremost these accusations are shit tests.

I personally disagree with that, and I also think it's a very disempowering mindset.

Yes, there are some authors who like to say that "a woman will never stop testing a man".
But that doesn't make it right -or a good mindset to hold-.

Remember that shit-tests are the tool of the chooser.

If you're already in a relationship, why are you still with a mindset that she's out to test you -and that you need to prove yourself to her?-.

Take a look at the power dynamics of relationships as they evolve.
During a relationship, the power dynamics should either be in balance, or favoring the man.

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#10 · March 21, 2021, 3:58 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 20, 2021, 10:00 pm
Quote from Marco Muenchen on February 17, 2021, 10:00 pm
Cause in my opinion first and foremost these accusations are shit tests.
I personally disagree with that, and I also think it's a very disempowering mindset.
Yes, there are some authors who like to say that "a woman will never stop testing a man".
But that doesn't make it right -or a good mindset to hold-.
Remember that shit-tests are the tool of the chooser.
If you're already in a relationship, why are you still with a mindset that she's out to test you -and that you need to prove yourself to her?-.
Take a look at the power dynamics of relationships as they evolve.
During a relationship, the power dynamics should either be in balance, or favoring the man.

Many thanks for your detailed comments and selfless contribution for the society. I am not a far-left feminist so just out of curiosity, are there any scientific proof behind your point that "the power dynamics should be in balance or favoring the man"? Or is it just your own value and mindset?

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