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Date structure: where to date, and in what sequence

#1 · July 30, 2020, 6:57 pm

Hello Lucio,

I'm curious about your gameplan for dates. Do you go to a café near your place and go for the pull on the 1st date? Do you mind if you go to a café where they see you with different girls?

Deleted user has reacted to this post.

#2 · July 31, 2020, 9:47 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 31, 2020, 9:47 am
Yeah, I tend to have a few places I go back to often.
Changing date places: yes, absolutely
Here in Seoul I used to do restaurant first, bar later, and then maybe another bar if needed.
Much dating literature recommends on changing places, and I agree.
Getting closer to your place: yes
Moving closer to your place is also a great idea.
Or at least not going too far.
Even if you're not sure you can pull, it's good that you are able to pull if you start getting obvious signs that the time might be right.
But sometimes I also like to break that rule.
For example, around spring I love doing picnic dates and drink a wine. So fuck it, why not, I'll take more romance for less than ideal logistics.
But: date far from your place if you plan on having multiple dates
It's instead better to date on a different location than your block if you will not invite her home.
That way, it will seem like you're going to a "new" place when you invite her on the date when you're planning to invite her home.
Restaurant date: only you can frame it well
Some people don't like the restaurant date, and I see the point: it looks stuffy and overly serious. I actually partially agree, but I think it's more about how you do it.
I truly love that place, you can sit by the window, and they have this "couple meal" where you get different dishes. So you get to mutually share and take some from each other while you can also get to serve her and let her serve you, which sets up a great collaborative frame and "us frame". And we'd always sit next to each other, which makes it far more informal.
But now that I found a great wine place nearby, I'll probably do wine bar first, then potentially the restaurant, and/or potentially a bar.
I think what's best is to have a few places in mind, plus your place, of course, so you can gauge the situation and choose accordingly.
Coffee shops: not the biggest fan
I'm not the biggest fan of coffee shop dates to be honest.
There is less of both couple vibe and hookup vibe in coffee shops.
Least of all, I like chains like Starbucks and similar.
Partially, it's up to preferences (plus I'm still a bit of a no global, so somewhat biased).
But how it reflects on you is not so much about preferences.
If you go to a cookie-cutter place, you also look more like a cookie cutter guy (or couple).
I prefer smaller places that have a certain flair, which will also indirectly reflect well on you and on your tastes (talking about "hidden ways of showing your deeper qualities", as in the other topic).
Date locations with social proof or embedded sexuality
In Berlin, it used to be a gay bar and/or a small Italian place where I'd not the owner and the waiter and speak Italian (Antonio, what a guy :D).
It provides social proof, and some intelligence/international proof for being nearly bilingual. Most of all, it gives a feel of "I'm chaperoning you into this world and culture". And the chaperone is the leader-figure.
The gay bar instead gives a vibe of sexuality, and of breaking the rule. I would sometimes tell them that it's strange for women to be there, but we'll sneak in anyway ("because we're cool and under my leadership, we can break the rules", unstated).
But, again, having different options is good.
So I'd meet the girl near my place's station (Wittembergplatz) and ask if they'd feel like a walk (there is this cool view there, and where I'd ask the crazy shit-testing question), a drink (have you ever tried a gay bar?), or a bite (this small and cozy delicious Italian place).
Or with which one to start.
Their answers and reactions would also tell me a lot about them.

Yeah, I tend to have a few places I go back to often.

Changing date places: yes, absolutely

Here in Seoul I used to do restaurant first, bar later, and then maybe another bar if needed.
Much dating literature recommends on changing places, and I agree.

Getting closer to your place: yes

Moving closer to your place is also a great idea.

Or at least not going too far.

Even if you're not sure you can pull, it's good that you are able to pull if you start getting obvious signs that the time might be right.

But sometimes I also like to break that rule.
For example, around spring I love doing picnic dates and drink a wine. So fuck it, why not, I'll take more romance for less than ideal logistics.

But: date far from your place if you plan on having multiple dates

It's instead better to date on a different location than your block if you will not invite her home.

That way, it will seem like you're going to a "new" place when you invite her on the date when you're planning to invite her home.

Restaurant date: only you can frame it well

Some people don't like the restaurant date, and I see the point: it looks stuffy and overly serious. I actually partially agree, but I think it's more about how you do it.

I truly love that place, you can sit by the window, and they have this "couple meal" where you get different dishes. So you get to mutually share and take some from each other while you can also get to serve her and let her serve you, which sets up a great collaborative frame and "us frame". And we'd always sit next to each other, which makes it far more informal.

But now that I found a great wine place nearby, I'll probably do wine bar first, then potentially the restaurant, and/or potentially a bar.
I think what's best is to have a few places in mind, plus your place, of course, so you can gauge the situation and choose accordingly.

Coffee shops: not the biggest fan

I'm not the biggest fan of coffee shop dates to be honest.

There is less of both couple vibe and hookup vibe in coffee shops.

Least of all, I like chains like Starbucks and similar.

Partially, it's up to preferences (plus I'm still a bit of a no global, so somewhat biased).
But how it reflects on you is not so much about preferences.
If you go to a cookie-cutter place, you also look more like a cookie cutter guy (or couple).
I prefer smaller places that have a certain flair, which will also indirectly reflect well on you and on your tastes (talking about "hidden ways of showing your deeper qualities", as in the other topic).

Date locations with social proof or embedded sexuality

In Berlin, it used to be a gay bar and/or a small Italian place where I'd not the owner and the waiter and speak Italian (Antonio, what a guy :D).

It provides social proof, and some intelligence/international proof for being nearly bilingual. Most of all, it gives a feel of "I'm chaperoning you into this world and culture". And the chaperone is the leader-figure.

The gay bar instead gives a vibe of sexuality, and of breaking the rule. I would sometimes tell them that it's strange for women to be there, but we'll sneak in anyway ("because we're cool and under my leadership, we can break the rules", unstated).

But, again, having different options is good.
So I'd meet the girl near my place's station (Wittembergplatz) and ask if they'd feel like a walk (there is this cool view there, and where I'd ask the crazy shit-testing question), a drink (have you ever tried a gay bar?), or a bite (this small and cozy delicious Italian place).
Or with which one to start.
Their answers and reactions would also tell me a lot about them.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#3 · July 31, 2020, 11:27 am

Quote from John Freeman on July 31, 2020, 11:27 am
Good stuff, man. Thanks a lot for sharing! Some comments and questions:
Restaurant:
I do agree that it gives a lot of couple vibe and what do couples do after the restaurant? Exactly.
I agree: it does build a great "us frame".
I also think on a physiological level, it's a great move: eating puts us in the paraysmpathetic system (rest and digest), which is the same system as sex. In the book "Swoon", great seducers insist on the importance of making the woman relax.
Wine bar: great idea.
So I think Wine bar + restaurant is a great idea.
I'm going to be more accurate in my questions:
Being seen with several women at the same place: I'm afraid that the staff will think: "Oh this guy is a manwhore" and will show it indirectly to the girl. Where I live is not Berlin :( implying "as open/liberal as".
Number of dates: when I started to learn seduction a few years ago, I did the mistake that if I was not getting the woman on the same night I met her, it would be game over. I was obsessed with bringing a girl back home from a club as RSD was doing it ("same-night-lays"). I was too attached of course and also not flexible enough. So these days, I'm ok with dates as I was doing before learning about seduction. Of course, I'm adding the new knowledge. So if I understand well, you always invite her home on every date if you like her? Or you ramp up the sexual tension on the first date and plan to bring her home on the second?
UPDATE: I just read this in the course, hum hum (yes that's me):
The last one is the most crucial, and a mistake that some men schooled in PUA can fall for.
They approach a woman, and think that it’s either she sleeps with him quick, or he should move on to another woman who is more into him.
Not being seen as a provider: as I told you, I have a profession that pushes me more in the provider category. Or at least I think so. And also I have a very lovey-dovey personality. How do you disqualify yourself from boyfriend material in this instance? When I travel, the context does it by itself. I'm sure you know this girlschase tactics: disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend. I noticed in the past that it does build attraction. How do you go with making sure you're always framing and leading the interaction with a lover strategy?
As you see, I'm revising my dating strategy. I learned from you to control the horniness and the kiss in the neck instead of the mouth. I do agree, the kiss on the mouth should be used when the escalation will bring her to bed.
As I did self-development a lot I dropped all the tactics that I learned from girlschase (flipping the frame: she wants me + disqualifying oneself as a boyfriend), but they were effective. How do you mix character and tactics?
Many questions, I know!

Good stuff, man. Thanks a lot for sharing! Some comments and questions:

Restaurant:

I do agree that it gives a lot of couple vibe and what do couples do after the restaurant? Exactly.
I agree: it does build a great "us frame".
I also think on a physiological level, it's a great move: eating puts us in the paraysmpathetic system (rest and digest), which is the same system as sex. In the book "Swoon", great seducers insist on the importance of making the woman relax.

Wine bar: great idea.

So I think Wine bar + restaurant is a great idea.

I'm going to be more accurate in my questions:

Being seen with several women at the same place: I'm afraid that the staff will think: "Oh this guy is a manwhore" and will show it indirectly to the girl. Where I live is not Berlin :( implying "as open/liberal as".
Number of dates: when I started to learn seduction a few years ago, I did the mistake that if I was not getting the woman on the same night I met her, it would be game over. I was obsessed with bringing a girl back home from a club as RSD was doing it ("same-night-lays"). I was too attached of course and also not flexible enough. So these days, I'm ok with dates as I was doing before learning about seduction. Of course, I'm adding the new knowledge. So if I understand well, you always invite her home on every date if you like her? Or you ramp up the sexual tension on the first date and plan to bring her home on the second?

UPDATE: I just read this in the course, hum hum (yes that's me):

The last one is the most crucial, and a mistake that some men schooled in PUA can fall for.
They approach a woman, and think that it’s either she sleeps with him quick, or he should move on to another woman who is more into him.

Not being seen as a provider: as I told you, I have a profession that pushes me more in the provider category. Or at least I think so. And also I have a very lovey-dovey personality. How do you disqualify yourself from boyfriend material in this instance? When I travel, the context does it by itself. I'm sure you know this girlschase tactics: disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend. I noticed in the past that it does build attraction. How do you go with making sure you're always framing and leading the interaction with a lover strategy?

As you see, I'm revising my dating strategy. I learned from you to control the horniness and the kiss in the neck instead of the mouth. I do agree, the kiss on the mouth should be used when the escalation will bring her to bed.

As I did self-development a lot I dropped all the tactics that I learned from girlschase (flipping the frame: she wants me + disqualifying oneself as a boyfriend), but they were effective. How do you mix character and tactics?

Many questions, I know!

Deleted user and selffriend have reacted to this post.

#4 · July 31, 2020, 1:16 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 31, 2020, 1:16 pm
Hey John,
I personally don't see it as a major issue with the staff.
If you are friendly with them then they're not going to be unfriendly just because you show up with a few different girls.
Unless... Unless you feel bad about it. But that's a different issue, then.
One I had a girl who spoke to my neighbors to find out information about me.
A very shrewd girl could be friendly with the staff when you're in the bathroom and crack a joke about you going there with different women to test their reaction. But that's less than 1 in a 1.000 and I wouldn't worry about it.
Yes, I do invite most of the girls I meet home.
I invite them while we're walking, and it comes across as very natural. So unless women had already thought "no way I'm going home with him" or "I absolutely need to go home now", then more women will come than not.
Quick Off-Topics:
Disqualifying as boyfriend
I think I talk about it Dating Power Dynamics, but feel free to open a new topic just for that (and I'm very curious to read how it worked for you).
But as a very short answer:
When you remove value from yourself, you date as overall lower value.
So if boyfriend disqualifying means things like "I'm not wealthy / I'm poor", or "I'm not smart / I'm dumb", or "I don't have a high-status sounding profession / I'm unemployed", then I don't see how that would be a great general strategy working for most people and in most situations.
Exceptions apply in which it's a great strategy.
But in general, for most guys, advising people to go out of their way to seem lower overall value can make you sound more "advanced" because you're explaining a more advanced technique, but without putting it into context it just sounds like doing a disservice to the readers.
It reminds me of a social skills author who told people to do "mistakes on purpose" to seem more relatable. Sure, that's an advanced strategy that works in some cases, but as a general strategy, that's just fucking stupid. And I have no better words to describe it.
RSD: never had a great impression
While there are several pick-up artists or dating coaches who have lots of great material, I personally didn't find RSD to be among them.
They often came across as overly gamey, relating with women and with people from a high-energy perspective only or mostly and, often, as going after reactions more than results (of course in their videos you see the exceptions).
Also, not a well-rounded approach. Some of those coaches had some issues and social issues, and some got into game without first understanding basic social skills.
I met a few people followed RSD and they were never well-rounded folks with a handle on their life.
Sounds very harsh and possibly, I'm wrong: since I didn't particularly like what I saw, I haven't seen that much from them.

Hey John,

I personally don't see it as a major issue with the staff.

If you are friendly with them then they're not going to be unfriendly just because you show up with a few different girls.

Unless... Unless you feel bad about it. But that's a different issue, then.

One I had a girl who spoke to my neighbors to find out information about me.
A very shrewd girl could be friendly with the staff when you're in the bathroom and crack a joke about you going there with different women to test their reaction. But that's less than 1 in a 1.000 and I wouldn't worry about it.

Yes, I do invite most of the girls I meet home.
I invite them while we're walking, and it comes across as very natural. So unless women had already thought "no way I'm going home with him" or "I absolutely need to go home now", then more women will come than not.

Quick Off-Topics:

Disqualifying as boyfriend

I think I talk about it Dating Power Dynamics, but feel free to open a new topic just for that (and I'm very curious to read how it worked for you).

But as a very short answer:

When you remove value from yourself, you date as overall lower value.

So if boyfriend disqualifying means things like "I'm not wealthy / I'm poor", or "I'm not smart / I'm dumb", or "I don't have a high-status sounding profession / I'm unemployed", then I don't see how that would be a great general strategy working for most people and in most situations.

Exceptions apply in which it's a great strategy.
But in general, for most guys, advising people to go out of their way to seem lower overall value can make you sound more "advanced" because you're explaining a more advanced technique, but without putting it into context it just sounds like doing a disservice to the readers.
It reminds me of a social skills author who told people to do "mistakes on purpose" to seem more relatable. Sure, that's an advanced strategy that works in some cases, but as a general strategy, that's just fucking stupid. And I have no better words to describe it.

RSD: never had a great impression

While there are several pick-up artists or dating coaches who have lots of great material, I personally didn't find RSD to be among them.

They often came across as overly gamey, relating with women and with people from a high-energy perspective only or mostly and, often, as going after reactions more than results (of course in their videos you see the exceptions).
Also, not a well-rounded approach. Some of those coaches had some issues and social issues, and some got into game without first understanding basic social skills.

I met a few people followed RSD and they were never well-rounded folks with a handle on their life.

Sounds very harsh and possibly, I'm wrong: since I didn't particularly like what I saw, I haven't seen that much from them.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#5 · March 30, 2021, 2:00 pm

Quote from selffriend on March 30, 2021, 2:00 pm
Quote from John Freeman on July 31, 2020, 11:27 am
Good stuff, man. Thanks a lot for sharing! Some comments and questions:
Restaurant:
I do agree that it gives a lot of couple vibe and what do couples do after the restaurant? Exactly.
I agree: it does build a great "us frame".
I also think on a physiological level, it's a great move: eating puts us in the paraysmpathetic system (rest and digest), which is the same system as sex. In the book "Swoon", great seducers insist on the importance of making the woman relax.
Wine bar: great idea.
So I think Wine bar + restaurant is a great idea.
I'm going to be more accurate in my questions:
Being seen with several women at the same place: I'm afraid that the staff will think: "Oh this guy is a manwhore" and will show it indirectly to the girl. Where I live is not Berlin ? implying "as open/liberal as".
Number of dates: when I started to learn seduction a few years ago, I did the mistake that if I was not getting the woman on the same night I met her, it would be game over. I was obsessed with bringing a girl back home from a club as RSD was doing it ("same-night-lays"). I was too attached of course and also not flexible enough. So these days, I'm ok with dates as I was doing before learning about seduction. Of course, I'm adding the new knowledge. So if I understand well, you always invite her home on every date if you like her? Or you ramp up the sexual tension on the first date and plan to bring her home on the second?
UPDATE: I just read this in the course, hum hum (yes that's me):
The last one is the most crucial, and a mistake that some men schooled in PUA can fall for.
They approach a woman, and think that it’s either she sleeps with him quick, or he should move on to another woman who is more into him.
Not being seen as a provider: as I told you, I have a profession that pushes me more in the provider category. Or at least I think so. And also I have a very lovey-dovey personality. How do you disqualify yourself from boyfriend material in this instance? When I travel, the context does it by itself. I'm sure you know this girlschase tactics: disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend. I noticed in the past that it does build attraction. How do you go with making sure you're always framing and leading the interaction with a lover strategy?
As you see, I'm revising my dating strategy. I learned from you to control the horniness and the kiss in the neck instead of the mouth. I do agree, the kiss on the mouth should be used when the escalation will bring her to bed.
As I did self-development a lot I dropped all the tactics that I learned from girlschase (flipping the frame: she wants me + disqualifying oneself as a boyfriend), but they were effective. How do you mix character and tactics?
Many questions, I know!
Just 1 cent:
Disqualifying as a boy-friend is not for getting away with the provider-style. Lover or provider are mostly determined by women from a lot of evidence and details, which cannot to overturned with just one disqualifying sentence.
This disqualification can be used if you have huge genetic alpha value. When used properly, it says: "you are too good for me", just like how would a super sexy girl rejecting a man. This could be considered as a strong or even nasty covert power move, which the following hidden meanings:
I am too good and I am humble enough to say that you are also good
Unlike Obama, I don't need to devalue others to bring myself up
My intrinsic value and mindsets allow me to devalue myself and add-value for you
You are too good, but not good enough to impress me or make me chase
You are very good, yet I still reject you
I have a lot of "too good" options around, such that I can easily turn off an arbitrary number of them
I have great social intelligence such that rejecting you won't lead to embarrassment and conflict
I am playing the game of "chase me, harder, you still get a chance, but you need to think harder"
Much more...

Related articles: "I am sorry", a covert power move, by the leader of this site, and
https://thepowermoves.com/forum/topic/to-ease-tension-draw-attention-to-it-and-release-it-with-humor-forced-vulnerability/

Quote from John Freeman on July 31, 2020, 11:27 am
Good stuff, man. Thanks a lot for sharing! Some comments and questions:
Restaurant:
I do agree that it gives a lot of couple vibe and what do couples do after the restaurant? Exactly.
I agree: it does build a great "us frame".
I also think on a physiological level, it's a great move: eating puts us in the paraysmpathetic system (rest and digest), which is the same system as sex. In the book "Swoon", great seducers insist on the importance of making the woman relax.
Wine bar: great idea.
So I think Wine bar + restaurant is a great idea.
I'm going to be more accurate in my questions:
Being seen with several women at the same place: I'm afraid that the staff will think: "Oh this guy is a manwhore" and will show it indirectly to the girl. Where I live is not Berlin ? implying "as open/liberal as".
Number of dates: when I started to learn seduction a few years ago, I did the mistake that if I was not getting the woman on the same night I met her, it would be game over. I was obsessed with bringing a girl back home from a club as RSD was doing it ("same-night-lays"). I was too attached of course and also not flexible enough. So these days, I'm ok with dates as I was doing before learning about seduction. Of course, I'm adding the new knowledge. So if I understand well, you always invite her home on every date if you like her? Or you ramp up the sexual tension on the first date and plan to bring her home on the second?
UPDATE: I just read this in the course, hum hum (yes that's me):
The last one is the most crucial, and a mistake that some men schooled in PUA can fall for.
They approach a woman, and think that it’s either she sleeps with him quick, or he should move on to another woman who is more into him.
Not being seen as a provider: as I told you, I have a profession that pushes me more in the provider category. Or at least I think so. And also I have a very lovey-dovey personality. How do you disqualify yourself from boyfriend material in this instance? When I travel, the context does it by itself. I'm sure you know this girlschase tactics: disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend. I noticed in the past that it does build attraction. How do you go with making sure you're always framing and leading the interaction with a lover strategy?
As you see, I'm revising my dating strategy. I learned from you to control the horniness and the kiss in the neck instead of the mouth. I do agree, the kiss on the mouth should be used when the escalation will bring her to bed.
As I did self-development a lot I dropped all the tactics that I learned from girlschase (flipping the frame: she wants me + disqualifying oneself as a boyfriend), but they were effective. How do you mix character and tactics?
Many questions, I know!

Just 1 cent:

Disqualifying as a boy-friend is not for getting away with the provider-style. Lover or provider are mostly determined by women from a lot of evidence and details, which cannot to overturned with just one disqualifying sentence.

This disqualification can be used if you have huge genetic alpha value. When used properly, it says: "you are too good for me", just like how would a super sexy girl rejecting a man. This could be considered as a strong or even nasty covert power move, which the following hidden meanings:

I am too good and I am humble enough to say that you are also good
Unlike Obama, I don't need to devalue others to bring myself up
My intrinsic value and mindsets allow me to devalue myself and add-value for you
You are too good, but not good enough to impress me or make me chase
You are very good, yet I still reject you
I have a lot of "too good" options around, such that I can easily turn off an arbitrary number of them
I have great social intelligence such that rejecting you won't lead to embarrassment and conflict
I am playing the game of "chase me, harder, you still get a chance, but you need to think harder"
Much more...

Related articles: "I am sorry", a covert power move, by the leader of this site, and

https://thepowermoves.com/forum/topic/to-ease-tension-draw-attention-to-it-and-release-it-with-humor-forced-vulnerability/