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#101 · February 7, 2021, 3:00 pm

I think I'm not getting myself understood. I gave my best effort, though! I'm sad because the way I gave you feed-back was not optimal.

Here I understand! Thanks

Let me sleep over this.
There are some parts I understand but others maybe not so much.

John Freeman and Samson have reacted to this post.

#102 · February 11, 2021, 3:54 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on February 11, 2021, 3:54 am
WHY I AM SHARING MY THOUGHTS & FEELINGS
I am not expecting any change or action, but I would like to share my thoughts and feelings on what happened during the recent discussions on privacy.
My intentions through this sharing are
to clarify my intentions of participating in those discussions
to share my feelings and discuss if they are justified or I am looking at things the wrong way
to discuss what actually happened and was discussed and if I am interpreting them in the right way
after clarification, should we do something about this?
I am writing this pre-amble because the asynchronous nature of the textual medium presents certain challenges associated with clarifications and communications. It will prevent people from "stewing" on a difficult discussion while carrying out other tasks throughout the day.
CONTEXT & POINTS OF DISCUSSION
I would like to express and discuss my discomfort on this thread:
Is every post searchable with google?
Post #8 of the Thread
So let's see if anyone has anything else to add.
My intention was to propose another possibility without knowing the full context of what Lucio and John would like.
So I spent some time reading through the thread and wrote a post which what I thought could potentially help with the issue brought up on that thread.
Dear Matthew,
I think there is a misunderstanding. I never asked to delete my posts.
I spent quite a bit of time writing the post, and, when my post was framed as a misunderstanding, I felt that I wasted my time commenting on the thread.
I wanted to expand on the possibilities of solutions on that thread which was why I talked about something slightly different.
How safe is the forum?
I felt that by writing the last point on this post, I have been framed as the person making demands to edit and delete posts.
That was not my intention.
I wanted to write something that could potentially move the discussion forward productively.
On my personal end, I am aware that I am responsible for writing things on a public forum.
That responsibility should not rest on another person to think of how it will affect me in the future.
Clarification on the Other Thread - How Private & "Safe Are My Posts?
This is the first draft put out so I understand that I may be overlooking into the details here.
The legalese in the various T&Cs, like all T&Cs, is written to give the hosting website all the power.
I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.
I understand that, by writing on this forum, I have implicitly agreed to the T&Cs.
And the owner has every right to do as he wishes on this forum.
And it makes sense to draft the T&Cs to his advantage as well.
"all the power" is logically right to a certain degree, but I felt that this has been shoved onto my face.
THE MINDSET POINT OF VIEW
I am on the same page with the mindset with regards to privacy in the post.
I find it very insightful.
Though I think that this should be put on a separate thread.
It disincentivises people who may have potentially a different viewpoint on privacy to comment.
Because they may think that they do not have the right mindset by virtue of disagreeing to certain points in the post.
Thank You
I thank everyone for their time and attention in advance.
This was quite a long message.

WHY I AM SHARING MY THOUGHTS & FEELINGS

I am not expecting any change or action, but I would like to share my thoughts and feelings on what happened during the recent discussions on privacy.

My intentions through this sharing are

to clarify my intentions of participating in those discussions
to share my feelings and discuss if they are justified or I am looking at things the wrong way
to discuss what actually happened and was discussed and if I am interpreting them in the right way
after clarification, should we do something about this?

I am writing this pre-amble because the asynchronous nature of the textual medium presents certain challenges associated with clarifications and communications. It will prevent people from "stewing" on a difficult discussion while carrying out other tasks throughout the day.

CONTEXT & POINTS OF DISCUSSION

I would like to express and discuss my discomfort on this thread:
Is every post searchable with google?

Post #8 of the Thread
So let's see if anyone has anything else to add.

My intention was to propose another possibility without knowing the full context of what Lucio and John would like.
So I spent some time reading through the thread and wrote a post which what I thought could potentially help with the issue brought up on that thread.

Dear Matthew,
I think there is a misunderstanding. I never asked to delete my posts.

I spent quite a bit of time writing the post, and, when my post was framed as a misunderstanding, I felt that I wasted my time commenting on the thread.
I wanted to expand on the possibilities of solutions on that thread which was why I talked about something slightly different.

How safe is the forum?

I felt that by writing the last point on this post, I have been framed as the person making demands to edit and delete posts.
That was not my intention.
I wanted to write something that could potentially move the discussion forward productively.

On my personal end, I am aware that I am responsible for writing things on a public forum.
That responsibility should not rest on another person to think of how it will affect me in the future.

Clarification on the Other Thread - How Private & "Safe Are My Posts?

This is the first draft put out so I understand that I may be overlooking into the details here.

The legalese in the various T&Cs, like all T&Cs, is written to give the hosting website all the power.

I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.
I understand that, by writing on this forum, I have implicitly agreed to the T&Cs.
And the owner has every right to do as he wishes on this forum.
And it makes sense to draft the T&Cs to his advantage as well.
"all the power" is logically right to a certain degree, but I felt that this has been shoved onto my face.

THE MINDSET POINT OF VIEW

I am on the same page with the mindset with regards to privacy in the post.
I find it very insightful.
Though I think that this should be put on a separate thread.

It disincentivises people who may have potentially a different viewpoint on privacy to comment.
Because they may think that they do not have the right mindset by virtue of disagreeing to certain points in the post.

Thank You

I thank everyone for their time and attention in advance.
This was quite a long message.

#103 · February 11, 2021, 6:49 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 11, 2021, 6:49 pm
Matthew, I think your raise very valid points.
To clarify some of the possible misunderstandings:
"So let's see if anyone has anything else to add"
My bad, I didn't provide enough clarity there.
What I wanted to say was: "let's see if any other member has different data on this specific issue I'm describing, or they care about the issue and/or wants to de-index the forum".
So I was looking for either some hard data or logic fallacy I might have missed, or for a "yes-no", rather than building on the topic around privacy.
But I didn't make that clear.
Why I didn't reply
I did not reply to your well-thought message because I thought that one, it was veering slightly off the main topic and issue, and two, it added more complexity and I preferred to keep it simple.
You wanted to move the discussion forward proactively, while I wanted to keep it as short and simple as possible -some discussions are good to extend, while some others can lead to lots of wheel spinning, and I feel that privacy is at high risk of wheel-spinning and going nowhere-.
So we had two different goals there.
Framing Matthew as asking to alter old posts
I can see now from your point of view how you felt that was directed at you.
It wasn't, and I hadn't even connected the request of altering old forum posts with your user.
The reason why I specifically addressed editing or deleting old messages is because one, that's the most likely thing people are going to ask (what else could they ask for?), and two, that's the most time-consuming, and most value-taking request a forum admin could receive.
I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.
That's a great point.
What it means is that all online forums have standards terms, and those terms, in a nutshell, say that if a user breaks the law, it's not the forum admin's fault, and if a user wants to delete or edit old posts, he can't because the forum is owned by the admin.
Almost all legal agreements by service providers are designed to give service providers "all the power", and that's something that a power-aware individual should also be aware of.
By you make a great point, and I'm going to amend it.
I am on the same page with the mindset with regards to privacy in the post.
I find it very insightful.
Though I think that this should be put on a separate thread.
It disincentivises people who may have potentially a different viewpoint on privacy to comment.
Because they may think that they do not have the right mindset by virtue of disagreeing to certain points in the post.
Another great point.
I also see an advantage though: it's not necessarily good for a forum to lower the bar for everyone to write, as the quality may go down.
By nudging people who have a higher-power mindset to begin with, there might be higher quality writing.
Such as, there is the guy who thinks: "shit, I'd like to ask this question, but I'm afraid someone might find out it's me". The guy who writes anyway, in my current intuition, is more likely to be a solid member and a solid contributor.
The guy who is too afraid of writing is less likely to be a good contributor.
And the forum is actually better off without too many beginners who ask too many beginner questions, and cannot provide much input.
That's one of the reasons why Reddit-like forum quality tends to be lower than more specific forums: the barrier to write are very low, anonymity very high, and usernames don't devleop as much "status" around their nicknames.

Matthew, I think your raise very valid points.

To clarify some of the possible misunderstandings:

"So let's see if anyone has anything else to add"

My bad, I didn't provide enough clarity there.

What I wanted to say was: "let's see if any other member has different data on this specific issue I'm describing, or they care about the issue and/or wants to de-index the forum".
So I was looking for either some hard data or logic fallacy I might have missed, or for a "yes-no", rather than building on the topic around privacy.

But I didn't make that clear.

Why I didn't reply

I did not reply to your well-thought message because I thought that one, it was veering slightly off the main topic and issue, and two, it added more complexity and I preferred to keep it simple.

You wanted to move the discussion forward proactively, while I wanted to keep it as short and simple as possible -some discussions are good to extend, while some others can lead to lots of wheel spinning, and I feel that privacy is at high risk of wheel-spinning and going nowhere-.

So we had two different goals there.

Framing Matthew as asking to alter old posts

I can see now from your point of view how you felt that was directed at you.

It wasn't, and I hadn't even connected the request of altering old forum posts with your user.

The reason why I specifically addressed editing or deleting old messages is because one, that's the most likely thing people are going to ask (what else could they ask for?), and two, that's the most time-consuming, and most value-taking request a forum admin could receive.

I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.

That's a great point.

What it means is that all online forums have standards terms, and those terms, in a nutshell, say that if a user breaks the law, it's not the forum admin's fault, and if a user wants to delete or edit old posts, he can't because the forum is owned by the admin.

Almost all legal agreements by service providers are designed to give service providers "all the power", and that's something that a power-aware individual should also be aware of.

By you make a great point, and I'm going to amend it.

I am on the same page with the mindset with regards to privacy in the post.
I find it very insightful.
Though I think that this should be put on a separate thread.
It disincentivises people who may have potentially a different viewpoint on privacy to comment.
Because they may think that they do not have the right mindset by virtue of disagreeing to certain points in the post.

Another great point.

I also see an advantage though: it's not necessarily good for a forum to lower the bar for everyone to write, as the quality may go down.

By nudging people who have a higher-power mindset to begin with, there might be higher quality writing.

Such as, there is the guy who thinks: "shit, I'd like to ask this question, but I'm afraid someone might find out it's me". The guy who writes anyway, in my current intuition, is more likely to be a solid member and a solid contributor.
The guy who is too afraid of writing is less likely to be a good contributor.
And the forum is actually better off without too many beginners who ask too many beginner questions, and cannot provide much input.

That's one of the reasons why Reddit-like forum quality tends to be lower than more specific forums: the barrier to write are very low, anonymity very high, and usernames don't devleop as much "status" around their nicknames.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

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#104 · February 12, 2021, 4:37 pm

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on February 12, 2021, 4:37 pm
Thanks Lucio for the time in clarifying in such detail.
I have learnt from Difficult Conversations to look at my own contributions towards this potential misunderstanding. (which I thank Lucio for recommending)
Personal Reflection
In summary, I think it's all good.
A misunderstanding.
I believe it's okay to express negative feelings during a discussion as long as it's expressed respectfully and constructively.
Even though I may lose some respect for being more vulnerable.
As I participated more in the forum, I may have wrongly assumed that this is more like a social community.
Sometimes I share like I am sharing with a private group of friends.
I should remember that this is foremost a business, and I have to keep in mind what does my contribution in this forum go toward the business.
In short, it is a value exchange.
I get productive discussions, learning, feedback on my personal situations and opinions in exchange for contributing valuable content on the forum.
If in any way, people on this forum feel that I am taking more value than I give, I am open to discussing this point.
How I Felt in Summary with an Analogy
I came early with the intention to help out at a party.
I went to help out.
During the party, I felt ignored.
I clarified once and felt ignored again.
I left the party.
My mistake is to try too hard to be part of the party.
I should have left earlier.
Responsibilities of the Topic Author and the Replier
There is some shared responsibility between the topic author and replied to align themselves when discussing on a thread.
The topic author has to provide enough context and value that the replier would like to participate.
The replier has to spend time thinking about how to give value to the topic author and take a risk in doing so.
In this sense, it was my responsibility to hold up the risk of me not giving value to the discussion.
Spend Time Clarifying More at the Start OR Go Straight to Discussing & Clarify Misunderstandings Afterwards
It would take a lot of time if we bounced back & forth before we get to the meat of the issue.
Clarifying the context of the discussion could in a way be done as we move forward to the main topic.
Which I feel is what we often do over here.
However, here I felt a bit lost in the discussion without the clarification.
Overall, this worked out because we addressed the main points and clarified afterwards.
The Goals in That Thread
Why I didn't reply
So we had two different goals there.
My intention was to align with your goal, at least the bigger goal of resolving the conflict.
I wasn't aware to keep the discussion as simple as possible.
I wrongly assumed that privacy is a complex topic so we should expand the thread a bit before converging.
My thoughts were that privacy has many interlocking aspects and hence a "larger picture" may need addressing.
This is the risk that I talked about above.
Potential Negative Frame Of Me On Altering Old Posts
I can see now from your point of view how you felt that was directed at you.
It wasn't, and I hadn't even connected the request of altering old forum posts with your user.
Thanks for clarifying.
We are all good here.
I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.
What it means is that all online forums have standards terms, and those terms, in a nutshell, say that if a user breaks the law, it's not the forum admin's fault, and if a user wants to delete or edit old posts, he can't because the forum is owned by the admin.
The forum is owned by the admin.
The data ownership on the forum is a greyer area. (depends on jurisdiction)
In practice as Lucio says, it is all about leverage.
Usually, the user has no leverage.
Only big businesses can negotiate privacy terms & conditions. (maybe if I'm paying Lucio EUR 799 a day for the 30-mins consultation)

If the user breaks the law, I also feel that it is his responsibility.
What about a data breach on this forum?
Not to say that this forum is not secure.
I am saying that even the military and governments can be hacked.
Would it be justifiable for a user to request an edit or deletion if he feels unsafe?
There are 2 subtle points here to delineate:
How much control should a person have on his/her data on this forum?
Especially the more personal ones
This forum is public so it is expected for a user to exercise more discretion when sharing compared to a private messaging app.
Whose responsibility is it to edit and delete the data?
How to compensate for this effort?
(I'm sure a lot of people already know this but I'm stating here over comprehensiveness)
By right, GDPR is supposed to be globally enforceable.
In practice, not every country has its own framework for enforcing GDPR.
As such, user requests to delete data do not have to be entertained.
That being said, businesses are entitled to charge users for the effort required to edit or delete this data.
For example, I may have the right to request deletion of the data, but the business has the right to charge me for the effort required to do so.
I'm not sure if you are keen on opening up this possibility of letting people pay you for the deletion/amendment of posts.
I understand that there are other factors like the value to the wider community and so on.
Almost all legal agreements by service providers are designed to give service providers "all the power", and that's something that a power-aware individual should also be aware of.
In practice, almost all the power resides on the business when it comes to handling the privacy of their customers and handling their data.
GDPR and other data privacy regulations are supposed to put some boundaries so that this power does not go absolutely unchecked.
How I View Privacy
My values around privacy are that it goes beyond myself as an individual.
There is an analogy that I can draw with the values of ThePowerMoves.
Standing up to value-taking individuals does not only benefit yourself, but it also benefits society.
So it is good if people take on a personal responsibility to stand up to abuse and value-taking behaviour.
There are many companies which abuse the personal data of individuals.
Here, on this forum, we share information publicly, so it is our responsibility to exercise discretion.
But, for more personal information like emails, payment information, credit card number, some companies may abuse this information.
As such, standing up to this abuse would benefit society as a whole and not only the individual standing up for his own interests.
For example, I don't feel that what WhatsApp did was right on changing its terms & conditions to its own liking.
And I was relieved that I had other options.
I think consumers should be able to cut through the noise and understand what is their relationship between them and the businesses with regards to their data and personal information.
Mindsets & Values
By nudging people who have a higher-power mindset to begin with, there might be higher quality writing.
I am on the same page here as well.
It is the nuances of the mindset & values that may differ even among high-value contributors.
For example, they may have an opinion to voice out but feel the need to jump through many hoops to paint a sufficient picture.
This may be overall-value adding as well because we don't want people putting out low-quality questions on this forum.
anonymity very high
Status does help quite a bit with encouraging higher quality posts.
That's why StackExchange has high-quality posts.
That being said, I value privacy more than status on this forum.
Not saying that I value either to a crazy degree.
I value the learning and discussions here the most.
On the above point, I would be more comfortable sharing in greater detail about value-taking business scenarios in the private section of the forum.
This is what Lucio has recommended.
I may also write as a guest which may make me feel more comfortable.
From the forum perspective, I'm not sure how valuable would personal stories & detailed accounts be.
Maybe general strategies and case studies would be more valuable.
This is what I have to personally discern.

Thanks Lucio for the time in clarifying in such detail.
I have learnt from Difficult Conversations to look at my own contributions towards this potential misunderstanding. (which I thank Lucio for recommending)

Personal Reflection

In summary, I think it's all good.
A misunderstanding.
I believe it's okay to express negative feelings during a discussion as long as it's expressed respectfully and constructively.
Even though I may lose some respect for being more vulnerable.

As I participated more in the forum, I may have wrongly assumed that this is more like a social community.
Sometimes I share like I am sharing with a private group of friends.
I should remember that this is foremost a business, and I have to keep in mind what does my contribution in this forum go toward the business.

In short, it is a value exchange.
I get productive discussions, learning, feedback on my personal situations and opinions in exchange for contributing valuable content on the forum.

If in any way, people on this forum feel that I am taking more value than I give, I am open to discussing this point.

How I Felt in Summary with an Analogy

I came early with the intention to help out at a party.
I went to help out.
During the party, I felt ignored.
I clarified once and felt ignored again.
I left the party.

My mistake is to try too hard to be part of the party.
I should have left earlier.

Responsibilities of the Topic Author and the Replier

There is some shared responsibility between the topic author and replied to align themselves when discussing on a thread.
The topic author has to provide enough context and value that the replier would like to participate.

The replier has to spend time thinking about how to give value to the topic author and take a risk in doing so.
In this sense, it was my responsibility to hold up the risk of me not giving value to the discussion.

Spend Time Clarifying More at the Start OR Go Straight to Discussing & Clarify Misunderstandings Afterwards

It would take a lot of time if we bounced back & forth before we get to the meat of the issue.
Clarifying the context of the discussion could in a way be done as we move forward to the main topic.
Which I feel is what we often do over here.

However, here I felt a bit lost in the discussion without the clarification.
Overall, this worked out because we addressed the main points and clarified afterwards.

The Goals in That Thread

Why I didn't reply
So we had two different goals there.

My intention was to align with your goal, at least the bigger goal of resolving the conflict.
I wasn't aware to keep the discussion as simple as possible.
I wrongly assumed that privacy is a complex topic so we should expand the thread a bit before converging.
My thoughts were that privacy has many interlocking aspects and hence a "larger picture" may need addressing.
This is the risk that I talked about above.

Potential Negative Frame Of Me On Altering Old Posts

I can see now from your point of view how you felt that was directed at you.
It wasn't, and I hadn't even connected the request of altering old forum posts with your user.

Thanks for clarifying.
We are all good here.

I don't feel comfortable when "all the power" is used.

What it means is that all online forums have standards terms, and those terms, in a nutshell, say that if a user breaks the law, it's not the forum admin's fault, and if a user wants to delete or edit old posts, he can't because the forum is owned by the admin.

The forum is owned by the admin.
The data ownership on the forum is a greyer area. (depends on jurisdiction)
In practice as Lucio says, it is all about leverage.
Usually, the user has no leverage.
Only big businesses can negotiate privacy terms & conditions. (maybe if I'm paying Lucio EUR 799 a day for the 30-mins consultation)

If the user breaks the law, I also feel that it is his responsibility.
What about a data breach on this forum?
Not to say that this forum is not secure.
I am saying that even the military and governments can be hacked.
Would it be justifiable for a user to request an edit or deletion if he feels unsafe?

There are 2 subtle points here to delineate:

How much control should a person have on his/her data on this forum?
Especially the more personal ones
This forum is public so it is expected for a user to exercise more discretion when sharing compared to a private messaging app.
Whose responsibility is it to edit and delete the data?
How to compensate for this effort?

(I'm sure a lot of people already know this but I'm stating here over comprehensiveness)
By right, GDPR is supposed to be globally enforceable.
In practice, not every country has its own framework for enforcing GDPR.
As such, user requests to delete data do not have to be entertained.

That being said, businesses are entitled to charge users for the effort required to edit or delete this data.
For example, I may have the right to request deletion of the data, but the business has the right to charge me for the effort required to do so.

I'm not sure if you are keen on opening up this possibility of letting people pay you for the deletion/amendment of posts.
I understand that there are other factors like the value to the wider community and so on.

Almost all legal agreements by service providers are designed to give service providers "all the power", and that's something that a power-aware individual should also be aware of.

In practice, almost all the power resides on the business when it comes to handling the privacy of their customers and handling their data.
GDPR and other data privacy regulations are supposed to put some boundaries so that this power does not go absolutely unchecked.

How I View Privacy

My values around privacy are that it goes beyond myself as an individual.
There is an analogy that I can draw with the values of ThePowerMoves.
Standing up to value-taking individuals does not only benefit yourself, but it also benefits society.
So it is good if people take on a personal responsibility to stand up to abuse and value-taking behaviour.

There are many companies which abuse the personal data of individuals.
Here, on this forum, we share information publicly, so it is our responsibility to exercise discretion.
But, for more personal information like emails, payment information, credit card number, some companies may abuse this information.
As such, standing up to this abuse would benefit society as a whole and not only the individual standing up for his own interests.

For example, I don't feel that what WhatsApp did was right on changing its terms & conditions to its own liking.
And I was relieved that I had other options.

I think consumers should be able to cut through the noise and understand what is their relationship between them and the businesses with regards to their data and personal information.

Mindsets & Values

By nudging people who have a higher-power mindset to begin with, there might be higher quality writing.

I am on the same page here as well.
It is the nuances of the mindset & values that may differ even among high-value contributors.
For example, they may have an opinion to voice out but feel the need to jump through many hoops to paint a sufficient picture.
This may be overall-value adding as well because we don't want people putting out low-quality questions on this forum.

anonymity very high

Status does help quite a bit with encouraging higher quality posts.
That's why StackExchange has high-quality posts.

That being said, I value privacy more than status on this forum.
Not saying that I value either to a crazy degree.
I value the learning and discussions here the most.

On the above point, I would be more comfortable sharing in greater detail about value-taking business scenarios in the private section of the forum.
This is what Lucio has recommended.
I may also write as a guest which may make me feel more comfortable.
From the forum perspective, I'm not sure how valuable would personal stories & detailed accounts be.
Maybe general strategies and case studies would be more valuable.
This is what I have to personally discern.

#105 · February 12, 2021, 6:02 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 12, 2021, 6:02 pm
Alright, all good then.
Also, I recognize I'm personally biased on the topic.
I'm not very interested in privacy, and I also have a personal issue with privacy When it wastes time, and adds red tape.
To me, every website pop ups prompting to accept or decline cookies is robbing the world of millions of hours of productivity -and life-. And that's only on the users' side.
On the business side, the GDPR weighs down on small businesses the most, and in various ways -I won't go into details here, maybe in the private section can add more-.
Anyway, we're clear on the personal side, which is what matters most.
A few notes:
The forum is owned by the admin.
The data ownership on the forum is a greyer area.
True.
The concept is: the service provider writes an agreement that protects the service provider. Then whether or not that would win the day in a court of law is all to be seen.
We can discuss more under that thread if you or anyone else is interested (but it's not like I got much more to add on the topic, no expert here).
As I participated more in the forum, I may have wrongly assumed that this is more like a social community.
Sometimes I share like I am sharing with a private group of friends.
I should remember that this is foremost a business, and I have to keep in mind what does my contribution in this forum go toward the business.
Actually, I think your original interpretation was correct.
Obviously, it's first and foremost a place to learn, share, and adapt new strategies and mindsets.
But after that, it's probably far more social community than a business tool.
The forum helps the business mostly in indirect ways, like:
coming up with new terminologies
furthering and codifying the knowledge around power dynamics topics
As wel as:
helping me understand what (some) people need most -and what they need less-. That's how I understood for example that the market on social skills today really needs a product that helps increase emotional intelligence as a skill, and in practical ways that help people bond, connect, and achieve results with people.
And to me, those are invaluable.
But I doubt that it helps much in selling the product -and if it does, it's far less effective than if I spent that time, say, learning Facebook ads, writing on other forums/websites to reach more people, or looking for backlinks-.

Alright, all good then.

Also, I recognize I'm personally biased on the topic.
I'm not very interested in privacy, and I also have a personal issue with privacy When it wastes time, and adds red tape.
To me, every website pop ups prompting to accept or decline cookies is robbing the world of millions of hours of productivity -and life-. And that's only on the users' side.
On the business side, the GDPR weighs down on small businesses the most, and in various ways -I won't go into details here, maybe in the private section can add more-.

Anyway, we're clear on the personal side, which is what matters most.

A few notes:

The forum is owned by the admin.
The data ownership on the forum is a greyer area.

True.
The concept is: the service provider writes an agreement that protects the service provider. Then whether or not that would win the day in a court of law is all to be seen.

We can discuss more under that thread if you or anyone else is interested (but it's not like I got much more to add on the topic, no expert here).

As I participated more in the forum, I may have wrongly assumed that this is more like a social community.
Sometimes I share like I am sharing with a private group of friends.
I should remember that this is foremost a business, and I have to keep in mind what does my contribution in this forum go toward the business.

Actually, I think your original interpretation was correct.

Obviously, it's first and foremost a place to learn, share, and adapt new strategies and mindsets.

But after that, it's probably far more social community than a business tool.

The forum helps the business mostly in indirect ways, like:

coming up with new terminologies
furthering and codifying the knowledge around power dynamics topics

As wel as:

helping me understand what (some) people need most -and what they need less-. That's how I understood for example that the market on social skills today really needs a product that helps increase emotional intelligence as a skill, and in practical ways that help people bond, connect, and achieve results with people.

And to me, those are invaluable.

But I doubt that it helps much in selling the product -and if it does, it's far less effective than if I spent that time, say, learning Facebook ads, writing on other forums/websites to reach more people, or looking for backlinks-.

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#106 · February 12, 2021, 6:35 pm

Awesome man, great to be on the same page.

On the business side, the GDPR weighs down on small businesses the most, and in various ways -I won't go into details here, maybe in the private section can add more-.

Looks like we have to be more private to discuss privacy.

SHORT NOTE

I view privacy as important to society.
I also don't agree with how people are enforcing it right now with GDPR and cookie banners.
No one reads the cookie banners.

I went to look for browser extensions to automatically get rid of cookies banners.

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#107 · February 12, 2021, 7:03 pm

Quote from John Freeman on February 12, 2021, 7:03 pm
What I can add on the topic of privacy is that seemingly unimportant information built several billion dollars companies. And the process is still ongoing.
And on the medical side, there is a trend to access your genetic information. And the manipulation is: "just give us a little bit of data (your genomic information) and we give you a lot of data (for instance: your probable ancestry) or money (insurance companies)" whereas in truth the value proposition is the other way around. You think your genetic information has little value for the only reason you cannot extract value from it by yourself. But they can.
I don't know if you're aware, but to get access to the Covid-19 vaccine, the israeli state gave complete access to all the medical records of its citizen (9 millions people).
My general view is that information is like a field with oil beneath. If you only have one drop of oil it's not useful. If you don't know how to use the oil, it's not useful. But add a lot of drops and use the technology well and you control the World. Now, if this guy would ask me: "Hey man, I just want to buy a drop of this nasty black stuff for $1", I might say: "Sure man, help yourself". I migh think I made a good deal. But would have I?
Privacy is the new currency (more or less of course, information has always been a very valuable currency). Of course, there is a duality here as you noted Lucio: for one individual it does not make much difference. Just like a vote. But presidents get elected with votes. And presidents rule countries. In french we say: it's the little brooks that make the big rivers.
BTW, Lucio, you brought the argument of death, but I think it's a fallacy. Maybe you bashed it because you might think valuing privacy is dumb and/or unimportant. But you can apply this argument to any argument because "we all die in the end". It's a way of making something that was considered important not important. Relativism is a virtue, but then it must be applied both ways. If what the other thinks is important is not so important then what you think is important is also not so important.

What I can add on the topic of privacy is that seemingly unimportant information built several billion dollars companies. And the process is still ongoing.

And on the medical side, there is a trend to access your genetic information. And the manipulation is: "just give us a little bit of data (your genomic information) and we give you a lot of data (for instance: your probable ancestry) or money (insurance companies)" whereas in truth the value proposition is the other way around. You think your genetic information has little value for the only reason you cannot extract value from it by yourself. But they can.

I don't know if you're aware, but to get access to the Covid-19 vaccine, the israeli state gave complete access to all the medical records of its citizen (9 millions people).

My general view is that information is like a field with oil beneath. If you only have one drop of oil it's not useful. If you don't know how to use the oil, it's not useful. But add a lot of drops and use the technology well and you control the World. Now, if this guy would ask me: "Hey man, I just want to buy a drop of this nasty black stuff for $1", I might say: "Sure man, help yourself". I migh think I made a good deal. But would have I?

Privacy is the new currency (more or less of course, information has always been a very valuable currency). Of course, there is a duality here as you noted Lucio: for one individual it does not make much difference. Just like a vote. But presidents get elected with votes. And presidents rule countries. In french we say: it's the little brooks that make the big rivers.

BTW, Lucio, you brought the argument of death, but I think it's a fallacy. Maybe you bashed it because you might think valuing privacy is dumb and/or unimportant. But you can apply this argument to any argument because "we all die in the end". It's a way of making something that was considered important not important. Relativism is a virtue, but then it must be applied both ways. If what the other thinks is important is not so important then what you think is important is also not so important.

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#108 · February 12, 2021, 7:24 pm

Hello Lucio,

something else: as you can see it was not clear for Matthew about the framework of the forum. As I told you the other day, it was not so clear for me either. When you said that the forum is a playground to learn, I had a shift in mindset. So I think if it's not clear for two frequent members, I think it might not be clear for the other members. As I told you the other day, I think it would be valuable it would be written somewhere. As part of the "forum framework", basically the rules of engagement. So far, there are rules about:

How to write on the forum (forum etiquette)
What privacy can be expected
I think the third one could be the mindset of the interaction or the goal of the forum. It might be obvious for you, but I think the forum would benefit if it would be explicit for all.

Cheers!

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#109 · February 12, 2021, 8:49 pm

Alright, a reminder that this is "feedback and clarification", for more on privacy, let's write on the privacy forum :).

Thank you John for the tip, it's a great one, will probably write that thread soon.

Cheers!

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#110 · February 15, 2021, 2:47 pm

@tsitut

About both of your first 2 posts.

Man, this is a forum on social dynamics, strategies, status, persuasion, etc.

If you want to drop links to a specific website you're trying to promote, you need to up your game, and be more socially aware.

For example:

Build some more reputation first (drop a few messages, then after a few days, drop your link)
Add more value in the message, then embed that link (instead of "read here" without any pointer, which is the lazy man approach even without backlink intention)
Ask for it: speak clearly, speak fairly. Doesn't always get what you want, but for sure it covers all downsides and maintains your status and reputation for a straight shooter

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