Quote from John Freeman on July 7, 2022, 10:50 pm

Hello MMC,

great attitude. That's the learner attitude. You want to learn no matter what. That's how you grow and improve. Here is my opinion:

You're on the money. It's all about mindset. It's how you think about a situation and about your identity. The anti-fragile ego is basically: "What can I learn from that?" Then nobody can destroy you as you will become stronger as you go.

For one example, if I was emotional and at that time someone else points out a lot of my mistakes, I would sometimes strongly fight back.

You identified it right. So there is the thought: "Making mistakes/Being wrong makes me a bad/inferior person" so you rightfully fought back for your sense of self.

However, mistakes are the building blocks of learning. So every mistake is a learning opportunity. That's what I have for you, mindset-wise:

"Every Mistake is a learning opportunity".

From there, you actually want people to point out your mistakes. So you can better learn.

"Criticize me so I can get better." That is what an anti-fragile ego looks like.

The more you criticise me, the more I learn the more, I improve. And we want to improve (growth mindset).

The only pre-requisite is detach your sense of self from being right (or know better than other people). To the learner, it's not important to be right. It's important to learn. If you're right, good for you. If you're wrong, there is learning there.

We can choose on what we base our sense of self.

Edit: You might like this thread: the learner mindset.

Edit2: especially this one, when I had the same kind of event happening here: when you feel the anger, you can use it as a trigger to become the learner.

Edit2: Anger is a useful signal when we feel our boundaries have been crossed. However, you're talking about detaching when it's not useful. So I'm not saying "never be angry" or "anger is negative". I'm saying "sometimes anger is not justified nor useful." When it is useful, let us use this signal of course.

I'm happy to answer more questions if you do have them.

Quote from Kavalier on July 8, 2022, 12:29 am

John, thanks so much for sharing these thoughts! Everything you said was very helpful.

Especially the part on our instinct to fight back. “Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been” - Marcus Aurelius. This is powerful"

Quote from John Freeman on July 7, 2022, 9:22 pm

I’ve been in your shoes guys on this very forum. Lucio knows it. So this is all learned from my own personal experience.

Reason over emotions gives better outcomes I think in these situations. So it’s important to detach. It’s important to recognize that we feel we are attacked so our instinct is to fight back.

However this also means that the other person has power over us since we are reacting to them.

I hope this is helpful. I’m open to feed-back as usual.

Man, discovering this was the biggest a-ha! moment for me in the whole thread. Before this exchange I used to poke fun at other people "lol look at all those internet people bickering over nothing", as if it were all just South Park's Warcraft.

Then I joined TPM and discovered the joy of interacting on the forum, and one thing that I notice is that, the more you interact, the more you feel you’re part of the community, and start to treat it pretty much as a social circle (it is, by the way). And this feels great!

Now, as I've got symptoms of covid and must be isolated for a few days (nothing bad and almost over it :) ), this is on steroids. I’ve been in TPM pretty much the whole day, so it contributes to the intensity.

Still, I’m shocked to notice how easily our instincts transfer to internet. There is no “internet people” here, only awesome men and women who have a lot going on in their lives, are top notch professionals, and still, sometimes, we get invested in discussions.

I admit I wasn’t taking it at face value when Lucio said that “feedback on public interactions are thorny as people tend to be heavily invested and committed”. I was pretty much wrong and boy, do I regret it.

I'm still like what the hell just went on here.

Quote from Transitioned on July 8, 2022, 3:35 am

Haha the shitstorms and echo chamber are real.  And deadly in the workplace or court of public opinion.   That's why always 'rapport first'.  You can't retreat over a bridge you burned down.  And there will be a time of retreat.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 8, 2022, 5:32 am

Quote from Transitioned on July 8, 2022, 3:35 am

Haha the shitstorms and echo chamber are real.  And deadly in the workplace or court of public opinion.   That's why always 'rapport first'.  You can't retreat over a bridge you burned down.  And there will be a time of retreat.

And it isn't over yet :D

Quote from MMC on July 7, 2022, 2:10 pm

If my understand is correct, then I think, last year when I first joined, I saw one or more ad hominem in some unnoticed corners. Something like: "if you cannot understand these, then your social intelligence is poor, and you'd better leave this conversation and here is not the right place for you." Cannot remember exactly.

@MMC

You may have noticed I disliked this post.
And it's because there's another power move there.

That's an attempt at covert framing.
In this case:

Expanding on a frame and linking it to an old issue you want to discuss, but didn't want to do so directly.

So here's your chance: care to point out who said that, and to whom?

My guess is that you remember very well who said that, and in which context.

I've been connecting a few dots on my end, and albeit it's certainly possible I'm wrong, I think I'm starting to see a bigger picture here.

I ask you to be honest and forthcoming on this, this is your chance to come clean and be welcome (again) with open arms.

Quote from MMC on July 8, 2022, 6:43 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 8, 2022, 5:32 am

Thank you for your interesting thoughts.

You may have noticed I liked your post.

And it is my pleasure to learn more and identify more power-moves.

I post that because LOF explicitly ask all forum members to note potential ad hominem: "news is that it flew in front of everyone's face, and nobody mentioned it."

Because you are very interested, I'll try my best to find evidences to back my observation up. I am responsible for my claims.

As I said, I cannot remember exactly, it could be something relatively recent or something a few month old, so finding evidence might take time. Also ad hominem is new word for me, so I include a lot of "if"s.

It could be more than one instance involving different people, I am afraid that pointing out the ad hominem out will attack the thread-poster. May I ask your permission for posting them? I will also ask the poster's permission (in private) before I re-post anything. I agree with you that digging old things could be a bit unwanted so we must be careful here.

While I am working on collecting evidence, may I kindly ask you to clarify your frame and why you think I remember very well?

---------------------------------

Here is my honest feedback for you (which could get thorny as people tend to heavily invested).

I ask you to be honest and forthcoming on this, this is your chance to come clean and be welcome (again) with open arms.

This could be a (unwitting) convert power move: it implies that I need to be more honest and forthcoming. It also implies that I are not very welcomed.

Well, if I indeed repost a lot of ad hominem without permission, I am sure that I become unwelcome for the posters. Very dangerous for me.

This is your chance

May I ask you to clarify who is giving what chance to whom?

I ask you to be honest and forthcoming on these questions, this is your chance to come clean and be welcome (again) with open arms.

I appreciate your collaborative mindset. Cheers.

Quote from Kavalier on July 8, 2022, 4:54 pm

What I learmed

• To understand concepts mentally doesn't mean that they have become part of our instinct. Sometimes we can use even this concept-level understanding to help people deal with similar situations where we are not emotionally invested (e.g in the forum); but, once we find ourselves in similar situations and are hot-headed, that superficial-level understanding may not be present there, for us.
• Instincts transfer very quickly to other media. Take some days to cool-off and remind ourselves that what we see in other people is probably a skewed vision.
• We do not always need to fight back when we feel there is an attack. Not every power move must be met with Gandalf's "you shall not pass!!". Save that for the Balrogs
• Respect is something that we build overtime; we do not have to demand it right away.
• Assertiveness is good. But going meta isn't always the go situation, and perhaps more indirect or subtle ways to address issues when they need to be addressed (and it can be addressed slowly, over time)
• To fight back doesn't mean to hit back. When we feel we've been offended, we don't have to say something that we think will make other people feel offended. They may work. But they will work the Pyrrhus' way.
• TPM tackles self-development in many different spheres. If we've been concentrating in one sphere (say, subtle speech), we can’t expect other people to be doing the same; they may be concentrating on another sphere (say social circle building), and you both will have your own shortcoming/strengths in each sphere, and can help each other at the right time.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen (Lucio in special, as always). I did learn a lot in here.

Quote from Emily on July 8, 2022, 5:10 pm

Quote from MMC on July 7, 2022, 10:26 pm

Hi @rwy Happy to read the feedback. You are right. I made a lot of grammar mistakes and I need to be more precise on my meanings.

I previously misread some of your and Lucio's points. The points brought-up by both constitute great learning and growing opportunities.

I acknowledge that you handle things well - at least better than me. I misread your case-study as the "case-studies" I encountered at school. I was unaware that you were a bit emotional (rightfully) and possibly seeking a bit personal emotional support (my guess could be wrong)? It was my misread. After a few exchange in your original thread I found out that you were in fact a usually calm and rational person with lots of other good characteristics that I can learn from.

For one example, if I was emotional and at that time someone else points out a lot of my mistakes, I would sometimes strongly fight back. In this case, initially, you were a bit emotional (because of that guy), and I, a random person from nowhere, directly pointed out some mistakes. However, you did not fight back; instead you tried to stay collaborative, and you controlled yourself to be super calm and collected. This really really impressed me. May I kindly ask to learn from your methods in controlling emotion?

Now I understand you are actually good at emotional control. Cheers. Indeed, in the new quote, we can clearly see that you were still trying to focus on facts, suppressing your anger, while that guy got super super passive-aggressive. (I guess you suppressed your anger because in another post you clarified that you were angry; on contrary, in most quotes I cannot directly find your anger through the words themselves; so I guess you are good at controlling anger and not expressing it. My guess could be wrong:))

As I am learning to "control" my emotion, there are two major bottlenecks that I am facing. First one is my emotion sometimes still outbreak, no matter how hard I practice "anti-fragile mindset", "mindfulness", "growth-mindset", or other related methods/mindsets. Secondly and most importantly, even if my emotion is perfectly under control and all my words are fact-based,  I could still have some emotion oscillating deep inside my heart -- the emotion is only hidden, not gone. In face-to-face interactions, some sensitive persons (is that frenemy also sensitive?) will still feel my hidden emotion, and they could take it as an attack. I am also a type of sensitive person who's emotion can be affected by other's hidden emotions -- and occasionally I was not aware of my emotional change and got passive-aggressive without my own knowledge...

I hope you (or any readers) are kind enough to guide me through those bottlenecks. Probably you have some more advanced mindsets/methods.

Hi MMC, I'm glad that you are getting more aware of your emotions with some deep reflections there.

I can't take the badge to claim that I am good at "controlling my emotions". I think emotions are part of our instinct, and we cannot really "suppress" them. However, we can become more aware of them, as you are already doing.

It is just like anything else that's built in us. For example, we need to eat to survive. Where we can control damage is when we decide to act on them, and what actions we take. Analogous to eating, when we are hungry we need to eat. But we can choose to eat junk immediately and be unhealthy, or take a pause and think about whether eating junk is the best for our health and personal development.

A metaphor that helps me is that, think of your negative emotions like a roaring monster (lion or whatever you like) in your mental cage. It takes notice of things, and reacts. But no matter how it cries and yells, YOU can decide whether you let it out of the cage.

Then we also need to release the emotions. It gives me great satisfaction when there is conflict, but both parties work it out and create a better understanding/deeper connection. This is one form of release for me. For things that are lingering and I cannot actively do anything about, I seek to release through other means - hobbies, physical exercises etc.

I think your practices of "anti-fragile mindset", "mindfulness", "growth-mindset", they are all good for both taking the pause and releasing the emotions.

Quote from Kavalier on July 8, 2022, 5:30 pm

Quote from Emily on July 8, 2022, 5:10 pm

Then we also need to release the emotions. It gives me great satisfaction when there is conflict, but both parties work it out and create a better understanding/deeper connection. This is one form of release for me. For things that are lingering and I cannot actively do anything about, I seek to release through other means - hobbies, physical exercises etc.

Wow, that's powerful! I hadn't thought about it that way. That may explain why I have that joy inside of me when it comes to "showdown time", and why people stop to watch conflict. We like fighting, because it releases emotions. Then it also feels good when the conflict comes to a resolution.

 

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 8, 2022, 6:48 pm

Quote from MMC on July 8, 2022, 6:43 am

...

OK, you made your choice.

I make mine.

And I'm now committed to keeping this space free of games and drama.
A healthy, uplifting, learning-focused space for high-flying eagles. That includes one person, one user, and straight talk.

I wish you the best, but for now, not on TPM.