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Find friends that are as smart or smarter
@jack: I see the description of the book now (in my list). He also talks about this.
Quote from John Freeman on January 11, 2024, 11:54 am(...)
Most people just don't have the intellectual capacity to understand the value of it...
(...)
I think most people see the value of it after they join. It's while they're still looking through the window that the value of PU may be harder to see since that requires good marketing.
I was recently wondering how Robert Greene managed to get so much attention for his book, 48 Laws of Power, when it wasn't marketed as a leadership or social skills book, but strictly as a "power book." (And if you Google "what is the 48 laws of power book about" many of the top searches will give you the answer that it is indeed a book on "power." So most people see it as a "power book" and decide to buy anyway based on that description.)
Turns out, it actually didn't get much attention at first (feel free to watch up to 9:30):
People read it and tried to keep it quiet (which is a similar occurrence here, people only wanting to leave testimonials anonymously and keep the course mostly to themselves to gain a competitive advantage). This caused a cult following in Greene's case until he gained celebrity endorsements.
So, I think it's more than IQ, I think it's also awareness.
Most people didn't know about Greene's book until celebs started talking about it. Similarly, SEO may not be enough to get PU out there (which may lend validation to Lucio's recent efforts on YouTube Shorts).
Quote from John Freeman on January 11, 2024, 3:36 pm@lucio: during the book he speaks 5-6 times of turkeys and eagles. Reading here maybe or just similar thinking?
Amazon has the book listed as being published in 2016, so it could be a coincidence (and we could say "great minds think alike" :).
However, it's also possible to update a book without changing its listed publication date, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility (and it wouldn't be the first time someone took an idea from TPM and didn't give credit).
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Hello Ali,
thanks for your answer!
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About awareness I agree. I thought that there was a strong correlation between IQ and meta-cognitive skills (related to "awareness" in my opinion, could be wrong). From my reading it appears there's some but that they can be independent of one another.
So thank you for that.
About not seeing the value in PU, I also mean like many other self-development systems, some people start and stop. And if they would persevere they could gain so much value. So it's also part of it. They might join see the value but underestimate it. For me the example is the forum: lots of readers, few participants.
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Thanks to the feed-backs and re-reading the title of this thread, I see it's not accurate enough to reflect my thinking (also influenced by the feed-backs).
So what I mean is: "If you feel frustrated in your social life/friendships, the issue might be an issue of IQ mismatch. If you feel it might be the case, having some friend(s) who are as smart or smarter than you might solve this".
So I make it a less general but more accurate statement.
@jack: I skimmed the great article you posted (légende noire des surdoués).
Well, this is another topic. High IQ does not mean gifted people. Gifted people have high IQ and a different kind of intelligence (arborescent thinking, etc.) due to a higher density of connections between the 2 hemispheres. That's the most fact-based neurological explanation that I found so far. Also different character traits (high intensity, high sensitivity, etc.) which some of them give them the naivety, etc.
One can have a high IQ and have a normal quality of intelligence. There is quantity and quality of intelligence. I totally believe that neurotypical high IQ people don't have more insomnia than normal IQ neurotypical people (as in the article). I don't believe at all that neuro-atypical people with high IQ have the same rate of insomnia as normal IQ people (or neurotypical high IQ people for that matter).
There is a difference between high intelligence and a hyperactive brain.
In medicine, there is not yet a proper definition of gifted people. That's why I'm reduced to use this term. There are others (neuro-atypical, over-given (surdoués), high potential, sur-efficient, etc.) but none is accurate enough to me in its description so far. So to me there is none to little research on this topic. Science is behind on studying those people (such a small amount of population). It's a subset of the highest intelligence people (subset of 2% of population).
Since you're a french speaker, the WHO's definition of "surdoué" (gifted) is someone with an IQ over 130. To me that's very reductive. It does not talk about the difference in quality of intelligence (based on the neurobiological differences in corpus callosum). I link to the google search to avoid narrowing and bias.
I get along very well with high IQ people, but they still cannot follow me in many reasonings, which I can only speak about with people able to make connection between topics supposedly unrelated (for instance, there are other differences). It's like they think in 2D and I think in 3D (best image I could come up with). They think fast and well in 2D but not 3D though.
If you're interested, this is the best book I read on the subject. She's a psychologist. Not a scientist but to me she's the person who understood the best these people, whom I'm part of. Also, it's common (actually the most frequent case) that gifted people don't know they're gifted. They think "I'm just smart" or "I'm a very sensitive person" or even "I'm dumb" because of their unique challenges that others don't face. They don't face these challenges because they don't learn the same. They learn through imitation so they don't even need to understand the why and deep roots (generalization to give an image). Gifted people get comments such as:
- You always have these theories! (dismissive)
- Why are you always analyzing everything? (condescending)
- You're over-thinking everything
They often have trouble getting to sleep because of an overactive brain. When they wake up, the brain starts again with this high activity and goes back to solving problems. Problems are also solved during the sleep. So it's like a very demanding brain: always more information and stimulation. There are ways to circumvent that and some people become hermit or isolate themselves in order not to suffer from such a brain. It's a long topic but here are a couple concepts around it.
I'm not writing "off-topic" as I think this goes on finding the right friends based on intelligence. Here the quality of intelligence. Disclaimer: I'm aware there are different types of intelligence (creative, physical, mathematical, practical, etc.) and I think they all have their own unique values. I'm not talking about a type of intelligence, rather than a way of "intelligenting" things (please forgive the neologism).
For instance, that's why there is such hype around meditation. Of course, Tom Bilyeu and Tim Ferris benefit (almost need) meditation to calm their nervous system. Most people don't. But since they're not aware they're gifted they're giving right advice to the wrong people. This advice benefits gifted people the most.
edit: few edits.
I have a friend who s exactly how you describe very cerebral. Often told he s too academic at work. He got a daughter late in life and that has brought him down to earth. He s a lot warmer, practical and human now before it was like interacting with chat gpt
Yeah, then there's the whole gamut of intelligences and the spectrum of autism. From light to heavy. And you can have light autism with or without superior intelligence. Another variable that you bring in: we can change. In the kind of intelligence and in its intensity.
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Not all gifted people are cerebral. Some have a type of intelligence that is physical or practical. They can have very high IQ but they use it to know how to move their body or where they are in space. Basically, it's a subset of the high IQ people. It's another topic so I won't get too far into it.
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Hi John,
I understand your problems as I share a lot of them- it could be a combination of high sensitivity and adverse life experiences, so we are more reactive to negativity in general and easily shocked/surprised as well as tend to be more perfectionistic.
I mentioned the concept of Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) before by psychologist Elaine Aron (think you or Lucio didn't really like the term), but I've been engaged with our local HSP groups and have benefitted from that, knowing that there are similar people like you going through similar challenges (according to Dr. Aron it's about 20% of the population). Yes I would say it's hard to feel heard/validated if you are the minority in the society (think about minorities in race, sexual orientation, cultural backgrounds etc.) but nervous system traits are even more hidden because they are not surfaced as the others as social topics.
I find this discussion useful for me as I've been wondering if my friends are "low-value" and not suitable for my own self-development - the input from all you guys makes me see that other people are OK and they provide social value nonetheless. I also feel my friends, family, acquanintances are not ambitious, not doing more, not achieving more etc. etc. but then I tire myself out by my endless pursuits and dissatisfaction. For example, last week I was feeling pretty weighed down by my projects like eating healthier, career development stuff and music hobbies. I did go out with a friend for trivia and was actually able to enjoy it although it was kinda silly but we won a prize. So connecting can happen at different levels. For deeper/more intelligent conversations, it really depends on the other person, I am expanding professionally to reach out to more ambitious people in that regard. I also have people in my circle who are very mindful/spiritual and I resonate with them at a higher level for sure.
Hope this helps.
I think intensity might be an aspect of this personality type. They often want to persuade you to their point of view. 2 of the friends I shed over COVID were anti vaxers.
I have a bit of that even though I know debating burns relationships....doh!
I m trying to get a lot better at small talk, listening and curiosity about details. One rule I use for myself is the 3 questions. I have to ask 3 questions before I can make a statement.
Obviously you calibrate if they are answering a questions with no enthusias and trying to change the topic you don't keep going. But you get the idea.
Another area I struggle with is going into teacher mode which everyone here knows is a no-no. I am old and lived in different countries, diff jobs, partners, etc but that doesn't mean that my experience is any more valid or valuable than anyone else's. Trying to do the opposite of the aging process soften my ideas and open up more.. more listening more validation more supporting.
Hello Emily,
thanks for your answer.
I'm perfectly fine thank you very much. Yes there are challenges but there are challenges for everyone. I'm a happy person :)
Hello Transitioned,
I don't think debating burns relationships. Debating with assholes/closed minded people do.
I think that what you're talking about is communication. So when improving communication then it does not matter who we have in front of us. However, this does not mean that the person shares our interests nor Worldview.
Teacher mode can be fine if value-adding and for a short time. It depends how it's done. Otherwise we can never teach other people anything. So I think the tone, context and humility matters. That's my experience.
