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TPM competitors & fellow authors
Making a single thread to discuss anything in a similar space as TPM.
I saw today a Tweet mentioning TPM:
Edit: this Tweet was deleted some hours later. It's possible the original poster deleted, or the Twitter account owner did it.
So I went to check that website.
It's not really a website, but a Twitter account with a product.
The product is called Social Skills University.
Hmmm...
And in the description:
Social Skills Consist of Power Dynamics, Body Language, Conversation & Communication Skills, Awareness of Manipulation, and Leadership.
"Power dynamics" as the first item?
"Awareness of manipulation" featuring in the list, both "awareness" being a keyword TPM used a lot, and manipulation a big topic here.
Then the same Tweet that Valentin replied to says:
Make new friends and allies
These are all TPM's keywords and approaches.
My guess is that he did a lot more than just "hearing" about TPM :).
Then I checked some of his tweets and one says:
Get the Social Skills Playbook. I should charge for this, but I won't. Enjoy.
Quite some power moves on the audience there:
- Assumes a teacher frame and relegates the followers to empty-recipient pupils
- Self-frame as a giver, and does so with a nasty power move:
- Covert power move: "I decided to be "nice" and give it for free, but whether I decide to get your money or not depends on me
Very interesting, Lucio, thank you for sharing.
Looked into it a little further and I'm actually noticing quite a few similarities between us and these guys:
Similar phrases, terms, and keywords in their marketing
Of course, there are the obvious ones Lucio noted above.
And then, upon visiting their website, I noticed a few more:
I've said before (a few times) that "we're not taught this stuff (power dynamics) in school".
And, now, it looks like that point has been built into their marketing.
Maybe a coincidence.
But, then, I see another similarity again here:
Awareness of manipulation for defending oneself against it is a huge part of the mantra/motto for why we teach it here.
And, finally:
Bel's point that he joined PU in large part to gain more respect from others as well as our switch to using the word "leader" in the marketing more seems to have also been implemented in their marketing as well.
However, maybe they made this change before we did, who knows.
Spreading misinformation
#1. Oversimplification.
Such as their definition of power dynamics:
No.
Power dynamics refers to the study of power.
And, power can relate to more than only the dynamics of dominance and submission in a single relationship.
For example, it can also refer to the comparison of two social groups in terms of who has more allies or enemies.
It can refer to the negotiation power dynamics of job offerers and job seekers (which comes down to more than only "who's more dominant"—it can also involve the framing of "who's more in demand/has more people chasing them".
It's because power dynamics is so big (more than only dominance/submission), broad (see the umbrella image here), and, quite frankly, important in all aspects of socialization that we've had such a big challenge in nailing down a truly fitting definition for it that others can easily understand.
Anyway, there's more than only the oversimplifications.
There's also the straight-up wrong information:
#2. Incorrect Information
I picked up that Social Skills Playbook.
On the second page of the first chapter this is what I see:
No man, sometimes it's cognitive distortions (see "limiting thought patterns") that lead to social anxiety (which is what cognitive behavioral therapy is for).
Plus, there's the phrasing that ignores all exceptions.
He doesn't say that social anxiety can lead to not meeting people, or that it often leads to not meeting people, but that it just does.
So, what about the socially anxious who practice an antifragile ego and approach anyway until their anxiety eventually goes away? Are we going to completely ignore that whole subset of people?
The author goes by the pen name "Egodriv" (seemingly short for "ego-driven").
So, you'd think that someone who calls themself "ego" would know better than to recommend building self-confidence (which is situation-dependent) over a healthy antifragile ego (which is situation-independent).
And, again, what about the exceptions?
Small Annoyances
- Recommends using positive affirmations: to "give yourself every day [in order] to put yourself in the proper state of mind for optimal success when dealing with people”. And, you guys know how I feel about affirmations—I prefer my current system right now.
- Typos here and there: which I also noticed on their website's sales page/homepage.
- Says, "Being socially skilled mainly means being able to communicate properly and convey your ideas while building positive relationships.": maybe I'm being picky here, but "proper" communication isn't as important as "effective" communication. The former leans more toward focusing on manners, etiquette, and technique (even if that technique isn't appropriate for the current situation/context—such as overusing the DESOE framework). The other focuses on the feelings of the other person in order to calibrate and adapt one's communication as needed.
Final Thoughts
I only downloaded the book to see if I could find anything on power or power dynamics that might have been basically copy/pasted from TPM.
For the few minutes that I skimmed, I saw nothing.
But, what I did see was a lot of mistakes and poor information coming from a 44-page eBook that the author "should have charged for".
The guys over at Social Skills University seem to be beginners trying to teach concepts they're not yet ready/qualified for.
And, with the amount of sheer marketing that was in that damn book, my only regret is having taken the time to look inside at all.
Ehehe that final line made me smile, Ali :).
You took the analysis to a whole new level, thank you for sharing that.
The concept of framing power dynamics as a "social skills course" may have also been coming from you.
There is one important lesson I take away from this though: there's probably an untapped market on social media that TPM could eventually set out to get.
I've received a few cold reachouts over time of people promising big social media exposure, and always thought "it may be possible", but never followed through.
That account seems to prove that indeed a big-ish follower base is possible. What the benefits of that are all to be seen, but there may definitely be some.
Girlschase
I was reading an article today on Girlschase and noticed this:
Besides the keyword "power dynamics" in itself, that concept is exactly what this website's article says on the phases of relationship power dynamics.
And then noticed they now have a whole category called "power dynamics":
I used to read that website more frequently when I was deeper in the learning phase because, besides what I felt were sometimes dogmatic generalizations, I considered it one of the best resources when it comes to dating for men -of course the "learning phase" never ends, but how and where you learn does change-.
And over time, I've also noticed much improvement in Chase as an instructor (including how he's now much less dogmatic and more nuanced).
Anyway, I had never noticed the term "power dynamics" there.
So that makes me think the authors there are reading here as well.
Girlschase releasing products to handle a challenging time?
I think they've been through a tough time.
I've noticed a significant drop in rankings last year, Chase let go of some old writers for the website, and since I'm subscribed to their emailing list I noticed:
- Flurry of new products, including "Charisma in a bottle" and "meet girls everywhere" that were released under the marketing frame of "get it ASAP or it's going to disappear" and never released into their store (why not? That made me wonder).
Then one more recently (can't remember the name, maybe on "touching"), then looking for someone "good at online dating", probably to launch another product on online dating - Affiliate promotions, and unluckily I didn't feel it was of the highest quality since it was from someone we refused to make a similar deal with here (thanks to Ali for that!)
- New dating app project
The timing of these releases and the so-so quality of the affiliate partnership made me think if the products may have been a bit rushed.
Interesting update on this:
Charisma on Command (Charlie/Ben Split)
Charlie Houpert and Ben Altman aren't as close as they used to be, let's say.
Charlie disclosed the information in this video update.
He didn't want to reveal too much, and didn't want to intrude on Ben's own version or preferences on what to say and not to say -good choice by Charlie, that's the way to do it. Albeit the result wasn't ideal since the video feels tentative and diluted, without ever getting to the point-.
It seems like Charlie needed the distance because of "co-dependent" relationship dynamics.
Difficult to judge when so light on details, but I think those two are generally straight guys and nobody there was being an ass.
Watching the video my gut reaction was "that was unnecessary to split up / break a friendship", but it's all based on very little information and knowledge, so it doesn't really carry much weight.
Overall, it seems like both remain owners of Charisma on Command channel and Charisma University product, which is the bulk of the business.
When I first saw the video I thought Ben was going to do 100% of the videos, which I thought wasn't going to be good news for their business.
But I just checked now and it seems like Charlie is still doing the voice-overs as well. I checked their last 4 videos, and it was 1 video Charlie, 1 video Ben, so maybe since then Charlie is more hands-on again and they're alternating.
So overall it seems like they probably managed to keep it civil and friendly and collaborative enough to at the very least keep the business healthy and going.
That would be the equivalent of a divorce where both partners keep it civil, without lawyers, and remain in touch -already a huge win-.
Charlie took over the podcast and Ben's not there anymore.
Let's say that I preferred it with Ben.
I still watch it at times, but I now skip larger parts and sometimes just watch bits and pieces.
It’s sad that they split.
But I must admit I often wondered how long they would have stayed together.
I didn’t like the video too much: coming out first to mention “I was codependent here” to me has an implied undertone as to the psychological situation of the other party as well.
It’s significant that Ben, as far as I understand, chose to stay silent.
Quote from Bel on February 19, 2023, 5:14 pmIt’s sad that they split.
But I must admit I often wondered how long they would have stayed together.
Thank you for sharing, Bel, and I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Do you mind me asking how come you thought so?
Edit:
is it in any way connected to some of the examples/case studies we did here?
Yes, the case studies here were most of my views of them.
What I saw there was one of them frequently one-upping the other.
And, maybe more important, the other not fully being able to check those one-uppings.
Which gave me the “feeling” that:
- one of them may be unconsciously compensating (social climbing) for something missing in the substantial “business/relationship” realm;
- the other could get tired (if the above was true) of contributing more, and in any case of of being one-upped by a friend.
Adding that my gut feeling made me “not like” one of them significantly.
Also add to the mix my “lawyer predisposition” to see everything that can go wrong…
But of course hindsight is 20/20!
Thank you for sharing, Bel, I think this is truly great insight.
In partial defense of Charlie, I must say that what we saw here was a selection of either good or, mostly, "not-so-good" examples.
So it's normal that one may get a biased view because all the hours of normal conversation and relationship go missing.
Still... Those cut-outs were nonetheless part of the interaction so your interpretation may be justified.
Edit: as an example of how close I was to your point of view, I joked with myself that "maybe Ben saw TPM forum".
Guessing on the "why" the power moves were there, it's anyone's guess, but may also be down to simple personality. Charlie may be one of those guys who, albeit a "good guy" at heart and with a strong conscience, still end up power-moving on others because of, well... Good old conceit.
I agree on the "liking" though.
Ben was a great example of an open, honest, and straight predisposition -and largely free of power moves-.
Charlie, still a good guy overall, but not as straight and "power moves free" -and I personally wouldn't be a true close friend with him if he couldn't stop the one-upping power moves-.
Quote from Mats G on January 24, 2024, 9:41 amI recently stumbled upon this site: Encyclopedia of Power
They currently have a "social warfare" course which seems to be similar to PU but less extensive, at least judging by the sales page.
I haven't gone through the course myself, but the whole website strikes me as a TPM ripoff.
If anybody has checked it out I would be curious to hear what you thought of it.
Great find, Mats!
You're right, their offer seems quite similar to TPM's, even providing a free email mini-course:
I've already noticed some similarities:
And, finally, a YouTube video that felt similar to TPM's idea and shares some of TPM's teachings worded differently:
