Former Community – We Moved
🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.
Getting paid from Machievellian former boss
My Machiavellian, really manipulative and really dangerous, former boss, owes me 6 months of work that I performed for one of his clients two years ago. I am a civil lawyer, the work concerned a real estate transaction. I have proof of everything, since everything was done through email. And I can call his client and other people involved as witnesses if need be.
When I concluded the work, I was just starting to realize how manipulative and abusive my former boss was. So I decided to focus on my emotional recovery instead of pushing for payment. I was actually unsure whether to pursue, because I know he will (try to) retaliate for sure in any way he can, and I know he will use everything he can. But now I don't want to let him appropriate 6 months of my work for free this way.
Work was done in two 6-months periods: for the first he already paid me, and I have proof of this as well.
What I did so far
- two years ago, after finishing work, I asked him to close the email address he was keeping open in his law firm in my name, and to remove my name from the door of his law firm. He only did this after 6 more months, when one of his clients copied me in an email directed to him;
- while payment for the first tranche of work was decided by him (he had sent me an email stating "send me a fee notice for the amount of x"), for the second tranche I unilaterally prepared my fee notice (since the work for his client was done on a hourly fee, I simply applied to the overall amount the same deduction he had applied in paying me the first tranche of work);
- last year, he sent me a tax certification (that he had to send me under the law in respect of past salaries he had paid me) via certified email; I immediately capitalized on his choice of using a certified email, and so I also sent him a certified e-mail of mine attaching the fee notice I had prepared, as follows:
Hi ...,
I Thank you for the certification, and in turn send you the fee notice for the activity performed with reference to the preliminary deed of sale and purchase of ... ; I will issue the final invoice upon payment.
Kind regards.
I received no answer so far.
I should add I have blocked him everywhere except for normal and certified emails, as he was continuing to try to abuse me on the phone and via text, and I do not plan to unblock him unless absolutely necessary, as he is the kind of person that can provoke you into saying things he will then use against you.
My plan
I have prepared the following certified e-mail I plan to send him, reenclosing my fee notice:
Hi ...,
will you please proceed to pay me with gracious solicitude the fees for the work I performed two years ago, detailed in the fee notice I am here reenclosing.
Kind regards.
I will then wait one month, during which I will prepare my lawsuit and all documents (unfortunately I will have to translate everything in my language, as the client was foreign; but I'll do it).
Then, if nothing happens, I will send him this certified e-mail:
Hi ...,
I hereby wish to inform you, under article ... of the national bar code, that lacking payment within 20 days I will proceed against my will in court against you to recover the fees under the attached fee notice.
Kind regards.
Written communication of the intention to sue a colleague is mandatory under the bar code.
About using certified emails: he started it, and I feel I should not waive this advantage he inadvertently gave me.
While the law prescribes that before suing I should enter a mandatory negotiation for at least one month, I am thinking of first suing, and only then having the judge send us into negotiation (which can also be done during the proceedings), because there is a possibility he may want to avoid a lawsuit in front of our local court (since he does all his business in front of the same court and he may want to avoid it being known he is not paying 6 months of work to a younger colleague).
Alternatives
Unfortunately I don't see any alternatives here, short of de facto forfeiting my fees, or waiting that I may use them in the future as a bargaining chip against him, for something I cannot yet foresee (in theory I could interrupt the statute of limitations on my fees indefinitely, by re-sending him a certified email asking to be paid every x years).
Also in theory, I could ask the local bar commission to mediate the dispute; this is not mandatory but advisable in general. In this case, however, I fear mediation would be a waste of time with him, as he would capitalize on it to try to drastically reduce my fees (at the very least). He is also well connected in the sector and in the local bar.
The option of calling or texting him is out of the question, unless absolutely necessary, as he is the best manipulator I have ever met.
Drawbacks
Suing him may have an echo throughout the sector.
I feel most damage would go to his side, since I am simply asking to be paid; but I am sure he will try to paint me as a danger to other law firms he is connected to. While at present I am working by myself, I cannot exclude I may need to seek work in a law firm in the future, even if I don't plan going this route now.
Nice move on seizing that opportunity for certified email.
As for going forward, you seem to have a nice plan in place.
What I'd ask is:
- Do the 6 months pay exceed the time lost in the lawsuit?
If no, it might still be fair to forge ahead just for the pleasure of winning.
But you might still want to consider if:
- Emotional detachment is possible or preferrable
- If there are simpler ways to get your revenge and feel good
I know you said you want to keep all channels closed.
But still, on top of your plan I'd say to consider unblocking him on any phone/messaging/texts that cannot be used as evidence in court -such as, cannot be used against you-.
Then, you'd truly have little to lose.
The reason is simple: those other channels make it more likely you can avoid the lawsuit.
It's the power dynamics of saving face and having access to someone.
Just by having access to you, he can feel less disempowered.
If he has no other way of reaching you, he feels like he's being forced into one road only: pay or fight.
And he might decide to fight just to avoid "losing".
Even if he knows he'll lose, he might want to escalate just to waste your time and/or to have an excuse to punish you later on.
If instead, he can call you, you can make him feel "good enough" that he can pay and somewhat save face.
Such as, when and if he calls, you'd say something like:
Hey, hi, how are you.
All good here, and I hope you're also good.
Yeah, no worries and no bad blood on my side, just really want to close that chapter and get paid. Can you do that?
Whatever he says, just say "yeah, I'm just looking to get paid".
Does that make sense, at least in theory?
hey there Bel,
Sorry you've been put in the situation to even have to make these choices... the ex-boss you're dealing with sounds like a world class douche... do you think he's deliberately, consciously withholding payment or is it the case that he's just a scatterbrain? (what you say about removing your name from the office doorway sounds like someone who's just inefficient... do you think that certifying the earlier tax email was an escalation on his part or is certifying that sort of communication standard practice?
Lucas
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 6, 2022, 9:11 pm
- Do the 6 months pay exceed the time lost in the lawsuit?
If no, it might still be fair to forge ahead just for the pleasure of winning.
But you might still want to consider if:
- Emotional detachment is possible or preferrable
- If there are simpler ways to get your revenge and feel good
I'd say this really boils down to not forfeiting significant fees, it isn't a matter of revenge but of not allowing him to take advantage of me. And lawsuits are part of my work, so I don't see it as time lost but as getting paid and learning something on top.
But I understand that waiving these fees would give me one significant advantage: peace of mind. Unless I come to be forever plagued by my "gift" to this abuser.
But still, on top of your plan I'd say to consider unblocking him on any phone/messaging/texts that cannot be used as evidence in court -such as, cannot be used against you-.
The reason is simple: those other channels make it more likely you can avoid the lawsuit.It's the power dynamics of saving face and having access to someone.
Just by having access to you, he can feel less disempowered.
If he has no other way of reaching you, he feels like he's being forced into one road only: pay or fight.
And he might decide to fight just to avoid "losing".
Even if he knows he'll lose, he might want to escalate just to waste your time and/or to have an excuse to punish you later on.If instead, he can call you, you can make him feel "good enough" that he can pay and somewhat save face.
Such as, when and if he calls, you'd say something like:
Hey, hi, how are you.
All good here, and I hope you're also good.
Yeah, no worries and no bad blood on my side, just really want to close that chapter and get paid. Can you do that?Whatever he says, just say "yeah, I'm just looking to get paid".
Does that make sense, at least in theory?
Thank you Lucio, it makes much sense and it's really good advice. I can see how him continuing to berate me on the phone, and maybe even (try to) abuse me on the phone, may lead to him deciding to pay, since he will feel he has "won" by just being allowed to have the last say.
Although, with one colleague of mine who also worked for him, he paid after (i) compelling her to go to his law firm and (ii) obtaining a significant discount on the fees he owed her. At present, I am unwilling to concede on points similar to these.
In the end, he was driving me to madness with his abuse, but it's true I'm not as naive as I was back then.
I will have to think about it. I could unblock him on the phone and take calls: there is a bar rule that prohibits lawyers from recording conversations with colleagues.
If I decide to go this route, do I need to change the plan? I think not, I could start by sending the first certified email in any case.
And if he calls me, I can just take the berating but not concede on anything; in the end I may have to sue him in any case, but I'll remove his ability to say I didn't take his calls.
Quote from ZenDancer on January 6, 2022, 9:27 pmdo you think he's deliberately, consciously withholding payment or is it the case that he's just a scatterbrain? (what you say about removing your name from the office doorway sounds like someone who's just inefficient... do you think that certifying the earlier tax email was an escalation on his part or is certifying that sort of communication standard practice?
Hi Lucas, I am sure he is deliberately withholding, I've known him for 10 years; on the other hand I don't know the reason for his certified email. One possible explanation is that he wanted to have proof that he sent me this certification.
I will have to think about it. I could unblock him on the phone and take calls: there is a bar rule that prohibits lawyers from recording conversations with colleagues.
If I decide to go this route, do I need to change the plan? I think not, I could start by sending the first certified email in any case.
And if he calls me, I can just take the berating but not concede on anything; in the end I may have to sue him in any case, but I'll remove his ability to say I didn't take his calls.
My personal approach (you may differ) is to prepare quite a bit for such challenging phone calls.
I would also write scripts in front of me to make sure that I do not get carried away.
For example, in this case, I would tell him to schedule a phone call and prepare a few points on a cue card (or equivalent).
(I think impromptu may catch me off-guard.)
- I do not want to concede on the fee.
Or will I accept the absolute minimum payment of 80% of the fees? - Would I want to visit him in person if he proposes?
If so, his office, your office, cafe, etc. - Use the broken record technique to assert your demand for payment
- Lucio's script above - I think sometimes it helps to get the conversation rolling in my opinion
If you prepare these points, you would less likely fall for his manipulative tactics.
Because you know where the boundaries are on your side.
As Lucio advised, I also think keeping the channels open is a good idea.
If you are willing to negotiate, then it is a good idea as well.
Although you can request him to stick to particular communication channels of your preference.
Quote from Bel on January 6, 2022, 10:05 pmThank you Lucio, it makes much sense and it's really good advice. I can see how him continuing to berate me on the phone, and maybe even (try to) abuse me on the phone, may lead to him deciding to pay, since he will feel he has "won" by just being allowed to have the last say.Although, with one colleague of mine who also worked for him, he paid after (i) compelling her to go to his law firm and (ii) obtaining a significant discount on the fees he owed her. At present, I am unwilling to concede on points similar to these.
In the end, he was driving me to madness with his abuse, but it's true I'm not as naive as I was back then.
I will have to think about it. I could unblock him on the phone and take calls: there is a bar rule that prohibits lawyers from recording conversations with colleagues.
If I decide to go this route, do I need to change the plan? I think not, I could start by sending the first certified email in any case.
Exactly, no need to change any plans.
And you don't even necessarily have to let him yell and berate you on the phone -or, even less so, negotiate on the fee and go to him-.
When he says come over you say:
Him: come over to the office
You: we can meet for lunch one of these days but I'm too busy now to come to the office
While on paper the above makes little sense and you don't want to meet him, it's more of a "placate power move". Plus, it sub-communicates that "I can meet in person, but as an equal not while deferring to your power".
Similar for negotiation:
Him: I can pay right away at X rate
You: we can certainly talk about a new rate if we ever do new work together. For this work, the rate was set
Another small "emotional concession" power move when you say that "maybe in the future".
And then back to the real meat.
Even while standing your ground, I still think the phone call makes it more likely you can avoid the final escalation.
Thank you guys, it makes much sense: projecting a newfound strenght on the phone will reduce his thinking that he can outmanipulate me again. It's similar to what happened with that other female lawyer colleague of mine.
I have to say, becoming so strong that abuse has no effect on you is really difficult. Sometimes I wonder why I am forced to be the adult for everyone, while abusers in my life never change. No contact was much easier.
But we're on the path for ourselves, not for them. And following your suggestions is not a concession to them, but empowerment and adding options to ourselves.
I'll mull it over in the next days and update this topic when I move forward.
Aweome, Bel!
Just one note which is very similar to what I've just mentioned on the exact previous message (the coincidence):
Quote from Bel on January 7, 2022, 2:20 pmI have to say, becoming so strong that abuse has no effect on you is really difficult. Sometimes I wonder why I am forced to be the adult for everyone, while abusers in my life never change. No contact was much easier.
Albeit you could call it "strong", it's probably more about being "superior", "fluid", "detached", "non-invested".
That's why the eagle analogy of the website.
You see that game, but you look at the turkey and think "what a turkey".
You may despise the turkey, want to kill the turkey, and potentially (figuratively) plot to kill the turkey -that's totally fair and sometimes exactly what you gotta do-.
But ideally, never to the point that it pollutes your mind and life.
Even after a scrap that gets you emotionally, you want to soar back higher.
And that's often less about strength and more about detachment.
Ok. I have been using this time to prepare the lawsuit brief and attached documents, whose first draft I finished today.
I will send the first certified e-mail to push for payment on Monday, and simultaneously unblock him on the phone; it's going to be difficult if he calls, but I can do it. It's even possible he doesn't. I'll update this thread in any case.
I also have been thinking more about this: he cannot possibly believe he will be able to not pay me for six months of work. This is probably more of a ploy to drag this out, try to see how I make the escalation, and possibly try to obtain a discount: this reinforces the advice you gave me about escalating progressively, and about showing "non-reactive kind firmness" on the phone.
Thank you Lucio, Matthew and Lucas for your help so far. Knowing I can come here to you if anything happens is invaluable and a great relief.
Bel
Wishing you all the best with the next steps my friend. It blows my mind the way some people think it's ok to rip others off... you deserve better... well all do! Keep us posted on how things develop!
