Quote from Power Duck on September 10, 2023, 12:23 pm

Cheers John.

I do have that difficulty too. I get angry with relatives when they pull certain power moves.

1. Emotional component: how we feel in the moment. That’s where the challenge comes from as we could feel anger that is misplaced. We might project on the situation/person something that happened to us in the past or things that are not there.
2. Cognitive component: when we take some distance with the situation and analyze it, it helps us to see if there was really disempowerment or disrespect.

I think that not distinguishing "green light" power moves from orange/red is what causes the emotional part. In my case when I started becoming power aware every power move, be it one upping or setting a slightly negative frame had a strong impact on me. As I started realising subconciously which power moves where more value taking than which that emotional impact and reaction became less intense.

I think as we talked here it could come from having let others step on me too much in the past or from previous parental boundary violation/disrespect.

I agree, one's mental health and past relationships play a role here. I also think that ego and power awareness are intertwined,  precisely that's why we should ask others for opinions/reflect about it as you point out. I still have to work on this though.

So my current opinion is that it’s on a case by case basis, that it’s good to think about the situation with some distance and to ask trusted people outside of the situation what they think about it.

I agree that it's important to ask trusted people about what they think, of course one has to take into account how power aware they are. Although if they aren't power aware their opinion could still be useful, since they may see things in a different light.

SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC

Unfortunately, sometimes people close to us play power moves but refuse to understand/acknowledge that it could be value taking when one goes assertive while being respectful, hence the only option one has is to play their game. It's hard not to take things personally in this cases, I think that stoicism and antifragile ego are specially useful in those situations.

END OFF TOPIC

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

P.S:

Maybe I'm not the only one here, but I've also found that it's hard for me to trust/not think bad of people that could be high quality but that still play few power moves. It may a difficutly telling which power moves are more disempowering from which, or they may simply not be  high quality at all.

Quote from dsnw2022 on September 18, 2023, 6:49 pm

thanks for creating this topic John because I could have written this exact post. It's something I struggle with - how to strike a balance between acting in response the power move at the expense of being seen as too sensitive or letting it slide at the expense of losing social power and having the same thing happen again. And it's especially relevant with my parents and my relatives because they tend to couch their comments as "out of concern and care for my well-being" which might be true to certain extents. I also consult my husband in these cases a lot to see if I read too much into the whole situations and more often than not, guess what, I don't ha.  Regardless, it's a balance that I still have to actively work on.

Quote from B on September 18, 2023, 7:41 pm

Here's my take on this:

• for people coming from past submissiveness, it's generally better to (initially) overreact than to let it slide. Even if one loses any and all social connections, one can only improve in calibration, and at least has one's own respect;
• but, in general, I would tend to not bring up disrespect later than immediately. Either one surfaces/checks it immediately, or one waits for a second act of disrespect and then checks both;
• accept that while learning, and overreacting, one will lose connections. Often, those connections were bad people anyways. It beats the alternative of losing one's self-respect more and more. And, as you yourself said to me John, you can always apologize later;
• in the meantime, one must work on getting rid of past trauma. The reason for overreaction is most often past unaddressed trauma, and to be able to see it one must deeply self-reflect on what one endured and the suffering one went through, to the point of being able to uncover the pain, suffering and sadness and live it again to get rid of it for good;
• also, in the meantime, study manipulation, dark triads, evil people, and evil deeds. Read anything you can on the subject. Often, this has the effect of triggering recognition that some people close to us in our lives are/were dark triads. This in turn triggers peace. We finally learn that we did not have anything missing or wrong, these people simply wanted to destroy/make us submit;
• when someone catches us by surprise with a power move, focus on the learning. Imagine how to respond if it happens again. Because it WILL.
• the combined effect of i) calibrating reactions more and more, ii) getting rid of past trauma, iii) being able to see people as they are, and iv) learning appropriate responses, makes one evolve to more appropriate reactions.

One will not need to "seem" unfazed, one will "be" unfazed. In most cases.

Because: most people don't do any of this.

So just doing it more than others gives us tremendous advantages, even if one is not perfect.

Quote from John Freeman on September 18, 2023, 7:59 pm

Thank you very much for your answers Power Duck, dsnw2022, Bel!

I agree, one's mental health and past relationships play a role here. I also think that ego and power awareness are intertwined,  precisely that's why we should ask others for opinions/reflect about it as you point out. I still have to work on this though.

I totally agree that the problem comes from reaction from our ego when we feel threatened. Sometimes it's an appropriate reaction, sometimes it's not.

Quote from Bel on September 18, 2023, 7:41 pm

Here's my take on this:

• for people coming from past submissiveness, it's generally better to (initially) overreact than to let it slide. Even if one loses any and all social connections, one can only improve in calibration, and at least has one's own respect;
• but, in general, I would tend to not bring up disrespect later than immediately. Either one surfaces/checks it immediately, or one waits for a second act of disrespect and then checks both;

I think these are key concepts.

• accept that while learning, and overreacting, one will lose connections. Often, those connections were bad people anyways. It beats the alternative of losing one's self-respect more and more. And, as you yourself said to me John, you can always apologize later;

100%. Reading this you convinced me to set boundaries with JB next time he makes fun of me.

• in the meantime, one must work on getting rid of past trauma. The reason for overreaction is most often past unaddressed trauma, and to be able to see it one must deeply self-reflect on what one endured and the suffering one went through, to the point of being able to uncover the pain, suffering and sadness and live it again to get rid of it for good;

I think this is a very important concept as well.

• also, in the meantime, study manipulation, dark triads, evil people, and evil deeds. Read anything you can on the subject. Often, this has the effect of triggering recognition that some people close to us in our lives are/were dark triads. This in turn triggers peace. We finally learn that we did not have anything missing or wrong, these people simply wanted to destroy/make us submit;
• when someone catches us by surprise with a power move, focus on the learning. Imagine how to respond if it happens again. Because it WILL.

Yes and yes. That's why I think it's so important to write in the forum when we have been abused. I don't always get an answer and I'm totally ok with it. However, it helps me to process cognitively and emotionally what happened. I may fail another time. But this is very important work. By writing it down and looking for solution we train our brain to react. The thing that I think is often underestimated is that the time scale of development is in years. So it takes years to be able to be a good self-defender socially speaking.

In the past I was angry against myself that I could not defend. Now I take note of what happened and what I could not defend against (recent example with my sister). I know I will document it and reflect on it later in the forum. So now I view it as learning steps. It's like when you learn a new activity. Sometimes you will fail to learn a more advanced concept. Well, that was the first try. Through perseverance we can achieve mastery. So it's about persevering. The "holes" we have in our self-defense will show up again as you said. Whether it's an insecurity, a lack of dominance/status/power or a lack in technique. There's something that we miss in our toolbox. Until we acquire it we will make the same mistake again.

• the combined effect of i) calibrating reactions more and more, ii) getting rid of past trauma, iii) being able to see people as they are, and iv) learning appropriate responses, makes one evolve to more appropriate reactions.

Boom. Just boom.

One will not need to "seem" unfazed, one will "be" unfazed. In most cases.

Because: most people don't do any of this.

So just doing it more than others gives us tremendous advantages, even if one is not perfect.

100%. I noticed this as well in my own progress. For instance this week-end with the river thing for my birthday. I was still sad and disappointed that my friend power moved on me. However, not as much as I used to be. Also when it happened emotionally I felt a little sting but nothing more. It faded away and most of the one-upping I don't even remember (the partying helped of course but still).

So I think your post is golden post and worth coming back to. I'll save it in my notes. Thank you very much!

Off-topic

In case you want to give me any input on my relationship with JB that would be helpful as it's difficult for me to see clear in this. If he's a friend or not. And what is the best attitude. If not I'm cool as well, no pressure, all good. :)

/Off-topic

Quote from B on September 18, 2023, 8:26 pm

OFF TOPIC

JB is the Jester right?

The one who slammed the beer on the table?

Personally, I would just quit it with the guy for good.

Quote from John Freeman on September 18, 2023, 8:42 pm

Off-topic

Thanks a lot for your answer! It's helpful for me to go in this direction.

Yeah he's the jester. The guy who slammed the beer on the table was another friend. But still I wrote many threads about him as it's been quite challenging (Main thread about him, stealing at the supermarket, and Strings of power move). Sometimes he's a lot of fun and we share many things we like (board games, camping, hiking) sometimes he's micro-aggressing, one-upping and making fun of me. And when I feel I have to have my defenses up with someone it does not feel as enjoyable. Every time we come back from a week-end of camping/hiking I kind of feel bad since I've been power-moved on so much.

/Off-topic