Quote from Mats G on July 24, 2023, 8:36 pm

Thank you so much John!

I will answer properly when I'm less emotional, probably tomorrow, but for now I just want to thank you profusely for your support. It really means a lot.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 25, 2023, 12:41 am

Rock on, Mats!

You went well and beyond there :).

A few notes:

• You did great (feedback on this later on, if you wish)
• I don't think he will "take it on your parents" just because of what you did
• Even if he shows up again, chances are that it has nothing to do with you. You simply did what had to be done.
• His behavior is very much in line with him not respecting your mother, "true to character", he's probably one of those extremist conservatives that only considers adult men and breadwinners. Children, young men, and women don't get his attention
• He's very high power in the sense that he craves power and hates being disempowered/on the defensive
• The reference to the gun does change the situation, as John say:
• Re-involve the police, tell them about the gun reference, say that after that you're worried about your family's well-being, demand to know if he does have any registered weapon (it's possible that the law does not allow to share that info, but you demand it anyway)
  • BTW: it seems like it's not very easy to get a weapon in Sweden, and especially not for his type of character, so he may be bluffing

Overall, you can be proud of yourself and catch your breath.

Quote from B on July 25, 2023, 1:12 am

Hi Mats,

I agree with Lucio that your intervention didn’t really change anything for the worse.

If anything, it changed you for the better, because you’re reempowering yourself and learning new things.

And a certain kind of back-step emotionality is unavoidable in taking reempowerment steps of this kind. I also experienced it when I took action against my former boss, as you know.

That said, since this situation is really peculiar and certainly not nice, in addition to the suggestions John and Lucio posted, consider also the possibility to install a series of visible perimeter cameras recording whatever happens in the area he used to trespass.

They could be handy if you later need proof, eg for the police, and they may also be enough of a deterrent in themselves against further episodes.

Railings on the windows and other security measures may also be a useful thing to consider.

Quote from Mats G on July 25, 2023, 6:14 pm

Quote from John Freeman on July 24, 2023, 8:28 pm

Hello Mats,

I sincerely and friendily hope that writing it down helped to soothe the emotions a bit. This is tough.

Now regarding your neighbour: call the police. He hurt your mom and I think that should be the last draw. You guys are not his psychiatrist and he has huge mental issues. I understand you guys want to keep the peace with your neighbours but I think you guys will be better off risking it.

Basically when one cannot solve an issue, one possible solution is go to a higher authority. In this case, the police. To me he broke several laws, several times. So basically next time he's drunk I would lock myself inside and call the police. Yes, the possibility of retaliation exists if you do so. But it exists already as things escalated already.

At least I think it's something that you guys should consider. If you guys do not feel safe it's not good for you. I don't think moving out is an option as you guys bought the house. To me, this individual is sick and potentially violent when drunk.

I would also talk to his father and/or the police (maybe the police first) about his gun.

This is a serious situation. These kind of people are unpredictable. I don't want to scare you but rather tell you that I'm concerned for the safety of your family even if I cannot be of any help outside of emotional support and sharing my opinion with you.

A drunk guy with mental issues and a gun is a ticking time bomb. He can hurt his family as well. To me, it's only a matter of time as things are getting worse. As you saw this guy cannot be reasoned with.

I'm open to discuss more about the issue if you feel like it.

Thank you once again for your answer John. Not only was the support really helpful yesterday but you also gave really good advice on what to do.

I agree with everything you say. Calling the police should have been the first thing we did when this all started years ago, but just like you say me and my dad felt like it would cause a bigger conflict that could include the neighbor's parents as well. We didn't want to drag them into everything because we assumed they would take their son's side (and they also hold a bit of power in our area).

Now things are a bit different because the last time the neighbor came over my dad called the guy's parents who came over and tried to get him to leave. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how it went, but apparently the neighbor started screaming at his parents as well and cursing at them, claiming they were "taking our side". The response he got from his dad was apparently "I'm warning you, and I'm only warning you once". For context, the neighbor works at his father's company (most likely because he can't keep another job), so hopefully he listens to him. If his dad were to cut him off he is not a person who would succeed in life on his own.

My mother also told his father that she would have called the police if we wouldn't have gotten a hold of them, and he answered "do it". So a big a reason we didn't call the police was because we didn't want a conflict with the parents, but they've made it clear they think it's even a good idea.

The last time the neighbor came my mom did call the police and told them everything. They answered that we should document every time he comes back and does something similar. The police also called my dad and interviewed him about the whole thing a few weeks ago. Besides that nothing has happened. I don't know how the police works but I don't have much faith that they will do something unless something really serious happens. I could be wrong about that of course and I hope it's the case.

It's been months since my mom called the police and they have not talked with me at all. Maybe I'll try to call them someday about the gun, but I would imagine that my parents already mentioned it.

About the gun; just like Lucio says it is very difficult to get one in Sweden so I doubt he really has one. Still I don't know for certain so I'll have to assume he does.

Right now I'm not really sure what to do because we've called the police and nothing has happened; we've talked with his parents who in turned talked with him, but  I doubt that changed much; I've now tried to speak with him directly and clearly that didn't make things better (except for my own growth).

It seems like now it's just a matter of waiting for him to do something stupid and then calling the police again. It's not a strategy I like but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Quote from Mats G on July 25, 2023, 6:33 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 25, 2023, 12:41 am

Rock on, Mats!

You went well and beyond there :).

A few notes:

• You did great (feedback on this later on, if you wish)
• I don't think he will "take it on your parents" just because of what you did
• Even if he shows up again, chances are that it has nothing to do with you. You simply did what had to be done.
• His behavior is very much in line with him not respecting your mother, "true to character", he's probably one of those extremist conservatives that only considers adult men and breadwinners. Children, young men, and women don't get his attention
• He's very high power in the sense that he craves power and hates being disempowered/on the defensive
• The reference to the gun does change the situation, as John say:
• Re-involve the police, tell them about the gun reference, say that after that you're worried about your family's well-being, demand to know if he does have any registered weapon (it's possible that the law does not allow to share that info, but you demand it anyway)
  • BTW: it seems like it's not very easy to get a weapon in Sweden, and especially not for his type of character, so he may be bluffing

Overall, you can be proud of yourself and catch your breath.

Thank you for your answer Lucio!

After having thought about this whole thing a bit more rationally I realize you and Bel are most likely right; my actions yesterday does not make things worse or send him towards my parents. He most likely will come back at some point, and he most likely would do so whether I talked with him or not. From that perspective I just maximized the growth I could get out of this situation.

About his behavior being true to his character and not respecting anybody except the "man of the house"; it makes so much sense now that you point it out. I don't even know how I missed it. Whenever he wants to talk with somebody from my family it's always my dad. When he wants to "apologize" it's only to my dad. I don't even know if that's a dynamic I can change. In his mind I'm just a kid so anything I say is worthless to him. The only person who could then get him to listen is my dad, but he doesn't like being forceful so he won't push back hard.

And yeah he definitely didn't like being put on the defensive. He wouldn't even look me in the eyes or face me with his body when I talked about him coming over drunk. He got very angry very quickly. That's something I really don't know how to deal with. In my mind, a normal person would feel bad about that sort of behavior and apologize or something similar, not get angry and start insulting the person who brings it up. Yesterday when I talked with him I even had to step back a bit and appease him because he was using such an aggressive tone.

Also I'd be very grateful for that feedback, even if it's harsh : )

Quote from Mats G on July 25, 2023, 6:46 pm

Quote from Bel on July 25, 2023, 1:12 am

Hi Mats,

I agree with Lucio that your intervention didn’t really change anything for the worse.

If anything, it changed you for the better, because you’re reempowering yourself and learning new things.

And a certain kind of back-step emotionality is unavoidable in taking reempowerment steps of this kind. I also experienced it when I took action against my former boss, as you know.

That said, since this situation is really peculiar and certainly not nice, in addition to the suggestions John and Lucio posted, consider also the possibility to install a series of visible perimeter cameras recording whatever happens in the area he used to trespass.

They could be handy if you later need proof, eg for the police, and they may also be enough of a deterrent in themselves against further episodes.

Railings on the windows and other security measures may also be a useful thing to consider.

Thank you for the answer Bel!

The point you made about how it's unavoidable to have a negative emotional reaction to such a big step towards self empowerment was really helpful for me yesterday. Especially so because I know you've gone through it as well.

The cameras is a great suggestion, my mom actually wanted to install some but my dad was against it. I'm not entirely sure why. Since the neighbor sometimes walks over our property when he wants to get down to the lake, or sometimes comes in to look for his cats, it would be nice to have some surveillance.

I wouldn't put it past him to see the cameras and instantly knock them down though. He is not exactly mindful of other people's property. I'm probably a bit too biased here though, it's very possible he wouldn't do that at all.

 

As for this whole episode, I woke up today feeling better than I have in a long time. I had complete peace of mind and it felt like the biggest load had been lifted off of my shoulders and my heart.

Throughout the day I was thinking about it a lot though and some of my anxiety came back, but I think I've let a lot of it go. I know I actually tried to fix things to the best of my ability and so I can finally start to let go of my shame for not doing more to protect my family.

I know the situation hasn't really changed on the outside, but I think yesterday was a huge step forward in my life. Like a first step to finally letting go of this whole thing that I didn't even realize was taking up so much space in my head. So yeah, maybe nothing changed externally, but internally this might have been one of the most significant things I've done in a long time.

So again, thank you John, Bel, and Lucio for your support and advice through this whole thing.

Quote from John Freeman on July 25, 2023, 7:00 pm

Thank you Mat for your answer.

Regarding the gun, I'm thinking something like a family's gun (grandpa's or hunting rifle as some people have in Sweden). It does not have to be his gun. I don't think he owns a gun to his name either. He could also have one through a friend. I worked at a psychiatric hospital: we had one crazy guy who was threatening to come at us with weapons and he actually had weapons. So it's better to assume the worst in these situations and find out the facts.

One thing you can do is ask his father:

"Hello Sir, I know this question might surprise you but I'm worried about what your son told us the other day. Do you know if he has access to a firearm? I'm quite worried about my family's safety so I would like to know if you don't mind."

Yes, basically what we do in Switzerland is

1. You try to reason with the person (if you're not a coward as many Swiss call the police first thing without even talking to the person)

2. You cannot reason, you say that from now on you're going to call the police as you've tried to reason and it does not work

3. Each time you have an issue (must be a significant one) you call the police and describe what happened.

How does it help?

Well, each time you call them now it's their responsibility if they don't intervene. That is if something bad happens it's now on them (you know how much the police love bad publicity through the media: does not have to tell them/threaten them, they know).

So sure, there is the risk of thinking it's "cry wolf". That's why the description must be factual, calm and remind them last time you call (I don't know your age but if you're a family I guess it would be your father or your mother's responsibility, not yours but you can suggest them).

"Hello it's Mats (again), regarding our neighbour X, he's drunk again in front of our house and is insulting us. It's been 30 min we are trying to reason with him and he does not want to leave. Could you please come to help us deal with it? I'm worried about my family's safety as last time (the exact date) we dealt with it by ourselves and he hurt my mother by squeezing her arm. He also threatened us to kill the cat with his gun. I don't know if he has one but that's what he told us."

By the way, if he hurt her I would consider pressing charges. No one has the right to hurt someone else in our current societies. That's why there are laws.

So now they have to choose if they intervene or not. If they don't well they estimate it's not that serious. But if you called repeatedly for the same issue and they never sent anyone to check it's neglectful behaviour: it's their job to come and check. Even if then it's "nothing".

Now, if they come once now it's not a threat anymore it's real: he sees the police. What will the police tell him? Of course: "don't do it again."

And now you have a precedent. Now you can use: "You want us to call the police again? So please go home now it's late".

Now that they're part of the scenario it's up to them if they want to escalate (take him for a night in jail to get sober or consider a psychiatric hospitalization knowing his psychiatric problems: maybe his treatment is not working well enough, could be : he left you guys alone for a year).

But now it's not you vs him. It's him vs the police. Different scenario. And you can even escalate verbally: "Last time they told you not to do it again. Do you want to go to jail?"

You see the Spiel. You appeal to a higher authority (whose job it is anyway).

Because the only thing these people understand is the carrot and the stick. In his inebriated state he's even less likely to understand anything so that will be the stick for this gentleman.

I understand and empathize with his mental issues. That being said it's his family's responsibility not yours.

That's how I view it. I hope it's helpful. I'm not saying you have to do what I say, I hope it's clear.

Edit: at the minimum the police should give you a "how to behave" in these situations and should give you "red flags" when to call them to intervene. Their job is to keep you safe. If you end up hurt, they failed their job.

I know the situation hasn't really changed on the outside, but I think yesterday was a huge step forward in my life. Like a first step to finally letting go of this whole thing that I didn't even realize was taking up so much space in my head. So yeah, maybe nothing changed externally, but internally this might have been one of the most significant things I've done in a long time.

Yeah in my opinion it's not up to you or your family to carry their family's burden. Yes you are neighbours but there are certain rules regarding neighbourhood. One cannot do everything and anything on the pretext they are neighbours. Culturally, Sweden is quite close to Switzerland so rules are important values. The police should do something as they would here.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 25, 2023, 7:34 pm

Quote from Mats G on July 25, 2023, 6:46 pm

I wouldn't put it past him to see the cameras and instantly knock them down though. He is not exactly mindful of other people's property. I'm probably a bit too biased here though, it's very possible he wouldn't do that at all.

That'd be great news!

First precedent of crime against property.

Of course the camera should be recording and storing on an outside application, but I'd bet something like that does exist.

Quote from Mats G on July 25, 2023, 6:14 pm

Right now I'm not really sure what to do because we've called the police and nothing has happened; we've talked with his parents who in turned talked with him, but  I doubt that changed much; I've now tried to speak with him directly and clearly that didn't make things better (except for my own growth).

It seems like now it's just a matter of waiting for him to do something stupid and then calling the police again. It's not a strategy I like but I'm not sure what else I can do.

My point of view:

For sure you don't call the police AFTER the facts or when nothing is happening.

As Sun Tzu says:

You always leave your enemy an escape route.

If you bother him when he's not doing anything, you teach him that he's going to be chased no matter what.
That's bad, because you want to teach him that as long as he behaves, he's OK.

And that's twice as bad with personalities who see enemy and persecutions everywhere (we had an example in this forum as well).

So you never get the police far away from the incidents.
And the same applies to you talking to him actually: it's better done when the issue is still fresh.

BUT, if he misbehaves, that's when he pays the consequences.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 25, 2023, 7:48 pm

As for the feedback:

Quote from Mats G on July 24, 2023, 8:02 pm

Me: "Hey, you and I need to talk."

Him: "What is it now?"

Me: "You just greeted me as if nothing has happened between us. You've come over to my property drunk several times..."

Him: (speaking over me) "Yeah yeah."

Me: "I want us to have a good relationship but for that to happen you can't come over to my property drunk and insulting me and my family."

Him: "No, yeah we agree. It's not really a problem anyway because our cats are getting along now."

Me: "No but this has nothing to do with the cats. You can't come over drunk to my property and insult my family."

Him: "Me and your dad have already talked about this and it's fine."

Me: "But we haven't talked about it. If we are going to have a good relationship you need to stop coming over to my property when you're drunk and..."

Him:  (Interrupts me again) "Yeah yeah stop nagging about it. You're a little shitling (literal translation is "shit kid")."

Me: "Are you certain you want to say that to me?"

Him: "No but you keep nagging. This is all behind us I've talked with your dad about it already."

Me: "But you haven't talked to me about it and we need to talk about this."

Him: (at this point he is turning to walk away) "Yeah yeah okay."

Me: "Listen the last time you came over to my property you physically shoved my dad and squeezed my mom. That was not okay. You will never lay as much as a finger on my family again."

Him: "Yeah no I..., Are you threatening me or what the fuck?"

Me: "My family has always been kind to you but you can't come over to our property drunk if we are going to have a good relationship."

Him: "Stop nagging, this is all behind us. It's forgotten. Clean slate. All good."

Me: "It's only all good as long as you don't come over drunk again."

Him: "Yeah yeah whatever."

 

In my opinion this could have been:

• Briefer
• With more "pacing"
• Higher warmth / less "pouncing"

Such as:

You were already scoring your wins early on when he admitted.

That was huge: he wasn't denying, and he seemed to agree "it wasn't cool".

That's something you want to take full advantage of.

Of course his reason was nonsense and he wasn't taking ownership, so you could have targeted that specifically, while still making the most of whatever good you had:

You: ahaha I'm glad the cats get along, but I want us to be good independently of the cats. If your cat bothers my cat, I don't go to your parents threatening to fight, right.
Well, neither do I want you to do that (<---- leveraging some exchange dynamics here and making it easier for him to agree since you frame yourself as giving already)

Pace and lead.

That would have helped him to say "OK".

As for "brief", I mean that he wasn't going to concede after a while, there was little point in arguing more and more.

So you can simply end with "dude, I expect no more messing around with my family".
Higher power, and also makes less "bad blood".

Generally speaking, I got the feeling that initially he was agreeing.
But then he turned more and more aggressive when you failed to acknowledge that he was agreeing.

I think that was already a win, and you should have pounced and thread-expanded on that.

Like "good, glad we agree".

And I would have cut it shorter.
Such as "alright, just make sure that doesn't happen again", and then leave.
You don't need to engage him for a long time.
You step out, talk, make your point, ideally end on a positive and go.

Even a "OK, good day (name)" counts as ending on a positive in the situation.