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Open Discussion on Latest Red Pill Video

A split-off from the central discussion on Red Pill created by Lucio Buffalmano.
Central Discussion on Red Pill

We definitely need outside perspectives critiquing the red pill movement.
The latest ThePowerMoves video was a brilliant breakdown on the key assumptions and flaws of the red pill.
I do share similar sentiments and views to what was outlined the video.
And I would like to share some thoughts on how the audience might react to the video.

It is easy for anyone to classify and brand anything non-politically correct as red pill.
This is both unhealthy for open discussions, encouraging critical thinking, and developing new perspectives.

I personally feel that ThePowerMoves takes on a distinct perspective on power dynamics.
Very far away from the red pill.
Because it considers nuances and exceptions.

Relevant Links

Latest Red Pill Video
Red Pill Video Analysis by Lucio Buffalmano

Articles
Breaking Down the Red Pill
Moving Beyond the Red Pill

Forum Discussions
Red Pill Discussion on MGTOW
Are Men Oppressed in the Western Society?
How Should You View Your Opportunities to be a High-Value Man or Woman?

Video Vibes

The vibe seems a bit aggressive at times, and I felt a bit of anger compared to previous videos.
I do feel angry at entitled individuals in the red pill as well.

This is more about how it comes across to the general audience.
I have watched your previous videos as well.
The baseline vibe of your videos is usually calmer, less animated.

Some audiences may be a bit taken back by the more forceful demeanor.
Not saying that it is unsuitable.
But people build up a mental image of how you present in your videos and go in with an expectation that it will be similar.

The anger and emotions do give more authenticity and a personal touch to it.
Also, it does sound persuasive.

At the same time, there may be a group of people who would prefer an approach where you present facts, examples, scenarios, and let them draw their own conclusion.
Where you guide them gently towards a certain direction of thought.
The vibe of a calm observer and evaluator.

How Should a Wide Topic be Covered?
Single, Long Video Vs Multiple, Short Videos

Red pill theory is a rather extreme stance in social dynamics.
Extreme stances rarely have the sophistication to break down social dynamics.

At the same time, red pill theory is a broad topic where many people have been influenced to believe its principles.
It is a big ship with many weaknesses in its hull.
Bringing down a big ship with one long video may be tough.
Maybe poking small holes through a video series could be more effective.

A video series of 5-min videos may be more effective compared to an almost 40-min video.
Each video could go more in-depth and crack weaknesses.
Giving lots of examples, reasoning, data to avoid any possible lashback of being biased.

Your past, 10-minute videos were excellent in breaking down dynamics.
For example, on how Trump dominated Hillary Clinton in the debate.

Positioning ThePowerMoves

Maybe a video series would draw too much attention to the red pill for this website.
If the objective is to distance ThePowerMoves away from the red pill.
Because actually, I have thought little about the red pill when learning power dynamics from your content.
Power University is very grounded with examples and solid principles, unlike the red pill.

Some ideas about moving the perception of ThePowerMoves away from the red pill.

"Learn how to be bad"
This sounds red pill.

"Build collaborative relationships.
Punish value-takers.
Learn about the darker drives of yours and others. "
This positions away from both political correctness and the red pill.

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Lucio BuffalmanoStef

Such great and valuable feedback, thank you so much Matthew!

I have to admit that I was a bit worried about releasing that video: given the audience overlap, and how many guys subscribe to pill philosophy and gurus, I considered that video a risk from a business perspective.

But I also felt it was something I had to say, so I went ahead and was ready to "bite the bullet" and face the possible consequences.

Luckily, YB vids offer good analytics to test one's predictions.
It's still very early on that vid, but let's see:

UNSUBSCRIBES AS A MEASURE OF RECEPTION

Usually, whenever you publish a new video, some people will unsubscribe.

This is normal, and happens with "politically safe" videos as well. It's more like the law of the large number, and the exact same happens when you send a newsletter email.
TPM's YouTube channel is small and amateurish as compared to the website, but there are still enough subs to see that effect.

Take the recent video on frame control, for example:

A highly relevant video for TPM, but still the first days it was subscribers' negative, before starting to acquire some new ones.

So when I published that video on the red pill, I expected a lot more initial unsubscribes.
It's still very early days, and YB analytics are also delayed, but I was surprised to see no unsubscribes:

LIKES VS LIKES

Another measure, of course, is the like VS dislikes, and this one tells a slightly different story.

But even here, not extreme.

The red pill video has 90% of likes VS dislikes, as compared to 99% of the frame control video.
90% might seem good, but it's actually rather poor for YB videos. It's rare to see videos with more dislikes than likes, and I suspect people who don't like a video are more likely to close it, than to press "dislike".
Compare for example to the video example of "dominant man in relationship argument", it's a rather extreme video example of a toxic relationship, and there are both men and women slapping each other. And it still got 83.6% likes VS dislikes.

I expect that measure to further deteriorate over time as more people who are into the red pill, but not into the power moves philosophy, will view the video (some of whom will dislike it without even giving it a chance).
But if we limit the analysis to the power moves audience, then that doesn't matter.


Matthew: It is a big ship with many weaknesses in its hull.
Bringing down a big ship with one long video may be tough.
Maybe poking small holes through a video series could be more effective. A video series of 5-min videos may be more effective compared to an almost 40-min video.

Yes, I agree with you when it comes to length and to how many people will drop off over the course of 40 mins (the majority).

A shorter video would see far more people stick until the end.

On the other hand, on a shorter video a viewer might walk away thinking "yeah, there are a few wrong things about this movement", but overall still keep his previous opinion.

With a longer video, that includes more examples of toxicity, refutations, and examples of higher-quality mindsets, one is faced with a tougher choice: should I reject this video, close it, and still keep my mindset, or should I fully engage it and start questioning the red pill?
Many will reject the video, of course, but there are also more people who will start questioning the red pill than it would have been the case with a shorter video that'd only raise a single point.

THE BRANDING ARGUMENT

Finally, there is what you very intelligently point out: I didn't want to make the channel too full of red pill "refutations".

It's also a question of branding, as well as power dynamics: is TPM a channel/website against the red pill? If you release too many vids on that topic, it might seem so. It gives too much importance to the red pill, and indirectly disempowers TPM as well.
TPM rests on its own philosophy, systems... And merits.
If you spend too much criticizing this or that, you also eclipse your own merits. You can tear something else down, but... What's going to replace it? One has to make sure the replacement is bigger than the destruction.

In that sense, one single video is better than many (might one more though that goes more into evo psych).

ON ANGER AND EMOTIONS

Great analysis.

Yes, you're right, there were more anger and emotions.
And it might turn off people who are more looking for a neutral and balanced approach.

On the other hand, the advantages of higher emotional load (which you also mention):

  • Honesty

Abusive mindsets and approaches do make me angry/emotional (protecting one's own power and freedom are also central to TPM philosophy).
So it was either "calm yourself", or just "let it go".
Whenever possible, I still believe honesty is the best policy, and I saw little downsides there.

  • Effective with a different class of people

As you also mention, while anger and emotions might turn off those who are looking for more dispassionate analyses, you also fire up and persuade more the people who are more receptive to an emotional message (and the latter usually outnumber the former).

Furthermore, there is the Machiavellian approach to persuasion on the emotions VS level-headedness: people who are looking for dispassionate and level-headed analyses are not likely to fall for the red pill, so you'd be preaching to the converted.

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Matthew Whitewood
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Thanks for sharing the analytics insights man!
Very insightful.
I have bitten some bullets correctly and other bullets wrongly.
Still wary of biting bullets in general.

The video was refreshingly honest indeed.
Probably a lot of the red pill men knew that something was wrong deep down.
But they did not have the courage to step up to admit it.
The red pill allows you to hide behind an entitled attitude to operate in life.
Exposing the fallacies and giving an emotional kick would push them in the right direction.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2020, 11:58 am

Finally, there is what you very intelligently point out: I didn't want to make the channel too full of red pill "refutations".

It's also a question of branding, as well as power dynamics: is TPM a channel/website against the red pill? If you release too many vids on that topic, it might seem so. It gives too much importance to the red pill, and indirectly disempowers TPM as well.
TPM rests on its own philosophy, systems... And merits.
If you spend too much criticizing this or that, you also eclipse your own merits. You can tear something else down, but... What's going to replace it? One has to make sure the replacement is bigger than the destruction.

This is really an interesting point to draw parallels with frame control and refuting the judge position.
If we constantly refute a frame, we are still falling under the frame, and that signifies a lower power.
Choosing which parts of the red pill to refute while generally constructing your own frame holds much more power.
This is on a higher strategic level compared to that of a conversation.

It seems that we can abstract many power dynamics concepts to a more strategic level such as

  1. Frames - judge roles, positioning, frame constructing, pick and choose, etc
  2. Social Finessing
  3. Persuasion - logic (logos) vs credibility, ethics (ethos) vs emotion (pathos)
  4. Submission-Aggression - you can market aggressively and push your ideas onto people

How Jeff Bezos Brands Amazon? Positioning Away From Competitors

Jeff Bezos consistently advocates a customer-centric approach.
And sets up the judge frame that worrying t00 much about competitors is bad.
He never mentions who Amazon's competitors are.
Though the executives always mention that Amazon has plenty of competitors.
Saying that worrying about competitors is bad also suggests that his competitors worry about competitors.

Implicitly, this is employing a subtle good cop, bad cop tactic on consumers.
Set up a general bad cop without referencing any competitor directly.
This would implicitly motivate consumers to keep loyal to Amazon.

We can examine whether Amazon actually pays attention to competitors in this article.
Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble.com settle 1-Click patent lawsuit
Would Amazon patent its 1-Click technology and enforce this patent if the competition is not a main focus?

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2020, 11:58 am

Effective with a different class of people

As you also mention, while anger and emotions might turn off those who are looking for more dispassionate analyses, you also fire up and persuade more the people who are more receptive to an emotional message (and the latter usually outnumber the former).

Furthermore, there is the Machiavellian approach to persuasion on the emotions VS level-headedness: people who are looking for dispassionate and level-headed analyses are not likely to fall for the red pill, so you'd be preaching to the converted.

 

I didn't really think of this.
A touch of anger could motivate some red pill individuals to transcend the red pill.

This reminds me of the analysis on Michael Corleone showing anger every now and then.

Congratulating those who transcend the red pill in another latter video would reward them emotionally.
It's a win-win situation for all of us to get more individuals to move away from the red pill.

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Stef

The red pill is only "useful" as a lader to extreme ex-nice guys in the bad sense of being nice (from a position of weaknesses, poweful nice guys we called those magnanimous...) to move them closer to the other pole, this lader should be discarded as soon as possible, and only keeps currency as a rethorical device against bad faith arguers from other extreme positions.

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Matthew: I have bitten some bullets correctly and other bullets wrongly.
Still wary of biting bullets in general.

Ehehe yes, good one, and fair enough.

Matthew: This is really an interesting point to draw parallels with frame control and refuting the judge position.
If we constantly refute a frame, we are still falling under the frame, and that signifies a lower power.

Exactly.
I'd say that if you constantly and only refute some else's frame, then you are making their judge position stronger.

It's like you keep acting -and rebelling- to their frame.
And what does that say? It indirectly says they are holding sway. Probably in general, in the world, and most certainly in your mental real-estate.

Matthew: Congratulating those who transcend the red pill in another latter video would reward them emotionally.

Such a great idea for how to frame a possible next video!

"I received plenty of messages from those of you who are well on your way to moving past the red pill. Congratulations! Here are a few more reasons why you must keep on going... "

And then you can keep on refuting, but with the frame that you've already won.

Thank you, Matthew!

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Matthew Whitewood
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Quote from Stef on December 11, 2020, 2:53 pm

The red pill is only "useful" as a lader to extreme ex-nice guys in the bad sense of being nice (from a position of weaknesses, poweful nice guys we called those magnanimous...) to move them closer to the other pole, this lader should be discarded as soon as possible, and only keeps currency as a rethorical device against bad faith arguers from other extreme positions.

I agree.
And particularly like the note of "powerful nice guys being magnanimous", which is exactly how it is.

Look for example at the videos of Obama when he used to stop over at various burger places, and see the comments below, they were all about how "magnanimous" and "the president of the people".

Same for the current pope, who at the beginning of his pope-hood he once had his car to stop in a smaller streetside road, went out, and started kissing kids.
And he was everyone's new favorite pope.

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Matthew Whitewood
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