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Bel's thoughts

#491 · February 22, 2023, 12:36 pm

Thank you, Lucio.

I am curious about this:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 22, 2023, 3:36 am
In your case, the mistake wasn't terrible because you only connected, not reached out -which would have been worse-.
Still, you're right anyway since you put yourself in a position where you chased when you had no need to (plus, it's lower power when you connected without having been formally introduced).

Here I read the first sentence as meaning that me reaching out (for instance via another email) after the email thread was over, would have been worse than asking to connect on Linkedin.

I am curious if I am reading that right - and if you agree that, had I simply written in the first email "Nice to meet Mr. X" (irrespective of whether we had been introduced or not) the whole "problem" would have been solved (and I could have connected on Linkedin or even reached out directly afterwards with no issues).

#492 · February 22, 2023, 1:04 pm

No, I was referring to "reaching out" via LinkedIn in the sense of:

Invitation + message
Message
InMail

Once you're in touch with a person and before you actually work with him I wouldn't connect on Linkedin at all, just a chasing step that, no matter how small, simply has no benefit.

B has reacted to this post.

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#493 · February 22, 2023, 1:47 pm

Right! In other words my "connection request" would have been best avoided in any case here.

It's more useful for strangers, people one is steadily working with, or people one has known in the past but lost touch with.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#494 · February 22, 2023, 1:59 pm

Quote from B on February 22, 2023, 1:59 pm
A case of being "too submissive and courteous" to frame me as "haughy and arrogant"?
This incredibly helpful post by Lucio spurred reflection on another situation I was in involving "kindness" and "doors".
I was going with Bella for the elevator (an old model with door and handle) on my floor and this other guy (whom I had never seen before) from a nearby apartment of students was also approaching the elevator, but from the other side.
I think - reflecting on myself, I believe this point may somewhat explain his subsequent behavior - that I slightly accelerated my pace to try to reach the door first, and he probably noticed it.
He reaches the door first.
With very elaborated gestures (he was putting on a show of "being too courteous") he opens the door and stands back (very back) for me to get in.
I say something like
Me: No, you can go in.
He does not answer, but makes another elaborated gesture of standing back even more, as if to say "out of the question. You go in".
I say out loud
Me: Well, whatever, it's unimportant.
and go in first.
He then enters after Bella, closes the door, and very elaborately stands back against one wall as if to communicate "I am making space for you".
He even had his hands behind his lower back as if to subcommunicate "I'm defenseless here".
All the while looking intently and staring at me all the time.
Now that I reflect on this, I think he was staring at me from the start of the interaction.
The combination of him staring intently at me + being "too kind and courteous and submissive" created a message that I perceived as:
I'm mocking you, I'm doing this just to create the feeling in your partner that you're haughty and arrogant, because you're "taking advantage" of a submissive and defenseless young guy like me.
While inside the elevator, I started talking to Bella about something out loud, to offset this feeling and subcommunicate "whatever man, I don't care what game you are playing".
Then we went out and said bye.
I don't remember if I left and he closed the door, or if I closed the door myself to offset his subcommunication.
EDIT: I also asked Bella what she thought of the interaction, and I remember she said something to the effect that I "hadn't been very kind".
So he was somewhat successful in what he was probably trying to do.
My take on the solution
I think, reading Lucio's post, that I should probably have adopted the "high-power always forward strategy" and just went along with this guy's moves here above (ie I should have entered first) without paying too much attention to him.
The frame of "I didn't notice" is better than "I noticed but chose to go along".
Alternatively, I should have surfaced his game at the "you go in first; no you go in first". In other words, I should have done a gesture more elaborate than his, and maybe even said something like
You're really kind! But I'm not going to enter the elevator first after you opened the door and stood back, you're not a valet. Please do go in first. And by the way, I'm Bel.
This would have:
surfaced his game
subcommunicated I knew what he was doing
offset his move with "more warmth" on my side
elevated his "power" back to a more equal level, and deprived him of the "fake power differential" he had created.
If he had then insisted, and I had to go in first, the effect on bystanders (in this case Bella) would still have been in my favor, I think.
Because then it would have been apparent that it was his choice not to enter first, and not me "taking advantage" of the situation.
EDIT no. 2: I realize that moves like these can do little damage when one is in an established relationship, but can destroy a first date or a new relationship. So now I get why he did what he did, as he didn't know my situation.

A case of being "too submissive and courteous" to frame me as "haughy and arrogant"?

This incredibly helpful post by Lucio spurred reflection on another situation I was in involving "kindness" and "doors".

I was going with Bella for the elevator (an old model with door and handle) on my floor and this other guy (whom I had never seen before) from a nearby apartment of students was also approaching the elevator, but from the other side.

I think - reflecting on myself, I believe this point may somewhat explain his subsequent behavior - that I slightly accelerated my pace to try to reach the door first, and he probably noticed it.

He reaches the door first.

With very elaborated gestures (he was putting on a show of "being too courteous") he opens the door and stands back (very back) for me to get in.

I say something like

Me: No, you can go in.

He does not answer, but makes another elaborated gesture of standing back even more, as if to say "out of the question. You go in".

I say out loud

Me: Well, whatever, it's unimportant.

and go in first.

He then enters after Bella, closes the door, and very elaborately stands back against one wall as if to communicate "I am making space for you".

He even had his hands behind his lower back as if to subcommunicate "I'm defenseless here".

All the while looking intently and staring at me all the time.

Now that I reflect on this, I think he was staring at me from the start of the interaction.

The combination of him staring intently at me + being "too kind and courteous and submissive" created a message that I perceived as:

I'm mocking you, I'm doing this just to create the feeling in your partner that you're haughty and arrogant, because you're "taking advantage" of a submissive and defenseless young guy like me.

While inside the elevator, I started talking to Bella about something out loud, to offset this feeling and subcommunicate "whatever man, I don't care what game you are playing".

Then we went out and said bye.

I don't remember if I left and he closed the door, or if I closed the door myself to offset his subcommunication.

EDIT: I also asked Bella what she thought of the interaction, and I remember she said something to the effect that I "hadn't been very kind".

So he was somewhat successful in what he was probably trying to do.

My take on the solution

I think, reading Lucio's post, that I should probably have adopted the "high-power always forward strategy" and just went along with this guy's moves here above (ie I should have entered first) without paying too much attention to him.

The frame of "I didn't notice" is better than "I noticed but chose to go along".

Alternatively, I should have surfaced his game at the "you go in first; no you go in first". In other words, I should have done a gesture more elaborate than his, and maybe even said something like

You're really kind! But I'm not going to enter the elevator first after you opened the door and stood back, you're not a valet. Please do go in first. And by the way, I'm Bel.

This would have:

surfaced his game
subcommunicated I knew what he was doing
offset his move with "more warmth" on my side
elevated his "power" back to a more equal level, and deprived him of the "fake power differential" he had created.

If he had then insisted, and I had to go in first, the effect on bystanders (in this case Bella) would still have been in my favor, I think.

Because then it would have been apparent that it was his choice not to enter first, and not me "taking advantage" of the situation.

EDIT no. 2: I realize that moves like these can do little damage when one is in an established relationship, but can destroy a first date or a new relationship. So now I get why he did what he did, as he didn't know my situation.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#495 · February 25, 2023, 8:58 pm

Gofundme emergency request

I am ... Those who know me know the worker I am and the sacrifices I make for any thing I believe in and that all I have I EARN
THE DAY ... BETWEEN ... AND ... MY MOTORBIKE WAS STOLEN IN FRONT OF THE GYM IN FULL DAY IN STREET ...
Beside the enormous affection I have for the bike after many years of work and savings but the value of the price too high to be able to afford another one now it's impossible for my finances in red
I hope between my closest contacts and others someone may understand me really donating a QUOTE that for you is a symbol but for me very significant and helpful.
I am the business of myself working as a professional
And as all businesses when you have a crumble you ask a financial help
THANK YOU FROM THE HEART TO ALL THOSE THAT WILL CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THIS DONATION ALLOWING ME TO RETURN WITH THE BIKE I HAD

This is real, from a person that works as a gym instructor that sent it to all his contacts.

And he collected 400 from this.

It seems incredible to me.

I think he used many persuasion principles here:

- eliciting pity

- framing contributions as a small act for the donors, with high importance for him

- framing himself as (normally) contributing to others, hinting he will resume doing so

- framing request as exceptional ("I earn everything I have")

- hinting that those who received the request are "closest contacts"

- normalizing his request.

I see a contradiction though between him writing "I am a business" and then in the next line "all businesses ask for help when they crumble".

I also think these kinds of things do damage to credibility both in the short and the long run.

#496 · February 27, 2023, 7:30 pm

My doorman has never behaved more nicely than now.

He seems kind, courteous, always salutes me...

And, more significantly, I find I am "naturally", if gradually, reintroducing warmth on my side in my interactions with him.

It seems escalating the last interaction (the one here where he said "Bad news for you" and I said "Today for me, tomorrow for someone else") was not a totally bad decision.

Lucio Buffalmano and Mats G have reacted to this post.

#497 · February 28, 2023, 1:42 am

Quote from Bel on February 25, 2023, 8:58 pm
Gofundme emergency request
I am ... Those who know me know the worker I am and the sacrifices I make for any thing I believe in and that all I have I EARN
THE DAY ... BETWEEN ... AND ... MY MOTORBIKE WAS STOLEN IN FRONT OF THE GYM IN FULL DAY IN STREET ...
Beside the enormous affection I have for the bike after many years of work and savings but the value of the price too high to be able to afford another one now it's impossible for my finances in red
I hope between my closest contacts and others someone may understand me really donating a QUOTE that for you is a symbol but for me very significant and helpful.
I am the business of myself working as a professional
And as all businesses when you have a crumble you ask a financial help
THANK YOU FROM THE HEART TO ALL THOSE THAT WILL CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THIS DONATION ALLOWING ME TO RETURN WITH THE BIKE I HAD
This is real, from a person that works as a gym instructor that sent it to all his contacts.
And he collected 400 from this.
It seems incredible to me.
I think he used many persuasion principles here:
- eliciting pity
- framing contributions as a small act for the donors, with high importance for him
- framing himself as (normally) contributing to others, hinting he will resume doing so
- framing request as exceptional ("I earn everything I have")
- hinting that those who received the request are "closest contacts"
- normalizing his request.
I see a contradiction though between him writing "I am a business" and then in the next line "all businesses ask for help when they crumble".
I also think these kinds of things do damage to credibility both in the short and the long run.

Interesting.

What is it like a physical paper he hang, or was it online?

I'm also interested that you thought it was incredible, would have expected him not to raise anything?

B has reacted to this post.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#498 · February 28, 2023, 1:46 am

Quote from Bel on February 27, 2023, 7:30 pm
My doorman has never behaved more nicely than now.
He seems kind, courteous, always salutes me...
And, more significantly, I find I am "naturally", if gradually, reintroducing warmth on my side in my interactions with him.
It seems escalating the last interaction (the one here where he said "Bad news for you" and I said "Today for me, tomorrow for someone else") was not a totally bad decision.

Rock on, Bel!

Consider it may be much better than what you originally thought.

In the old days I had a friend who used to say "people always blame the last shot when they puke and magically forget all the ones that came before".
A real-life application of assigning more importance to the last item in a list, rather than distributing to the full list.

This convoluted story to say: it's possible that it's your whole change and all the previous interactions that contributed.
The last power move check was just the last push.
But in another universe where Bel only delivered the last push, it's possible that the doorman maybe even more power move-y to "get you back in line" -something he knows he'd struggle to do now, with this Bel-.

B has reacted to this post.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#499 · February 28, 2023, 2:22 am

Quote from B on February 28, 2023, 2:22 am
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 1:46 am
Quote from Bel on February 27, 2023, 7:30 pm
My doorman has never behaved more nicely than now.
He seems kind, courteous, always salutes me...
And, more significantly, I find I am "naturally", if gradually, reintroducing warmth on my side in my interactions with him.
It seems escalating the last interaction (the one here where he said "Bad news for you" and I said "Today for me, tomorrow for someone else") was not a totally bad decision.
Rock on, Bel!
Consider it may be much better than what you originally thought.
In the old days I had a friend who used to say "people always blame the last shot when they puke and magically forget all the ones that came before".
A real-life application of assigning more importance to the last item in a list, rather than distributing to the full list.
This convoluted story to say: it's possible that it's your whole change and all the previous interactions that contributed.
The last power move check was just the last push.
But in another universe where Bel only delivered the last push, it's possible that the doorman maybe even more power move-y to "get you back in line" -something he knows he'd struggle to do now, with this Bel-.
Thank you, Lucio.
I totally agree: consistency of higher-power behavior and checking power moves is key.
Especially after I let some people disrespect me for a loong time, they simply did not believe my first occasional push-backs were "real".
And people are testing me more than once, including in cases where I had blocked them for more than a year, and only then resumed contact - which proves that removing people from one's life is not sufficient to gain respect, in itself. *
Also, before-TPM, I would occasionally be able to "check a power move". But as you say, the general feeling these people got from me was probably: "just chance he did it". And, they were right.
I think there was a "switch" at a certain point of my learning here in TPM where I realized internally that:
I don't care if any people will get away from me because I check their power moves and demand to be respected. If so, good riddance. Go ruin someone else's life.
I'm the good guy, not the bad guy. I treat everyone kindly, but if someone disrespects me, all bets are off.
I can make people pay. Thanks to what I am learning in TPM and Power University, they are going to incur (social) consequences if they bullshit or power move on me.
Basically all the core messages that Power University teaches!
I still may not know how to manage specific things or behaviors. As I reflect on the first tentative checks I did, I find they were very rough. But I am starting to see that if I apply my mind to it, I can now deduce what's going on and strategize a response.
What makes the biggest difference for me is being able to understand and articulate why things work this way.
It's starting to be a huge change, and a huge life relief. It's freedom. Thank you!
* Digression here: one person, as soon as he saw me after more than one year "no contact", tried to put his hand on my shoulder when we said hi. I went for the Castro move (a staple now!).
He still touched me on the shoulder later when I was distracted. I then implemented my idea of re-touching to demonstrate "liking" (and maybe also judging): I waited a bit, then put my hand on his shoulder from behind and said "Nice suit you have" in front of everyone.
He has not touched me again so far. Now he salutes me politely.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 1:46 am
Quote from Bel on February 27, 2023, 7:30 pm
My doorman has never behaved more nicely than now.
He seems kind, courteous, always salutes me...
And, more significantly, I find I am "naturally", if gradually, reintroducing warmth on my side in my interactions with him.
It seems escalating the last interaction (the one here where he said "Bad news for you" and I said "Today for me, tomorrow for someone else") was not a totally bad decision.
Rock on, Bel!
Consider it may be much better than what you originally thought.
In the old days I had a friend who used to say "people always blame the last shot when they puke and magically forget all the ones that came before".
A real-life application of assigning more importance to the last item in a list, rather than distributing to the full list.
This convoluted story to say: it's possible that it's your whole change and all the previous interactions that contributed.
The last power move check was just the last push.
But in another universe where Bel only delivered the last push, it's possible that the doorman maybe even more power move-y to "get you back in line" -something he knows he'd struggle to do now, with this Bel-.

Thank you, Lucio.

I totally agree: consistency of higher-power behavior and checking power moves is key.

Especially after I let some people disrespect me for a loong time, they simply did not believe my first occasional push-backs were "real".

And people are testing me more than once, including in cases where I had blocked them for more than a year, and only then resumed contact - which proves that removing people from one's life is not sufficient to gain respect, in itself. *

Also, before-TPM, I would occasionally be able to "check a power move". But as you say, the general feeling these people got from me was probably: "just chance he did it". And, they were right.

I think there was a "switch" at a certain point of my learning here in TPM where I realized internally that:

I don't care if any people will get away from me because I check their power moves and demand to be respected. If so, good riddance. Go ruin someone else's life.
I'm the good guy, not the bad guy. I treat everyone kindly, but if someone disrespects me, all bets are off.
I can make people pay. Thanks to what I am learning in TPM and Power University, they are going to incur (social) consequences if they bullshit or power move on me.

Basically all the core messages that Power University teaches!

I still may not know how to manage specific things or behaviors. As I reflect on the first tentative checks I did, I find they were very rough. But I am starting to see that if I apply my mind to it, I can now deduce what's going on and strategize a response.

What makes the biggest difference for me is being able to understand and articulate why things work this way.

It's starting to be a huge change, and a huge life relief. It's freedom. Thank you!

* Digression here: one person, as soon as he saw me after more than one year "no contact", tried to put his hand on my shoulder when we said hi. I went for the Castro move (a staple now!).

He still touched me on the shoulder later when I was distracted. I then implemented my idea of re-touching to demonstrate "liking" (and maybe also judging): I waited a bit, then put my hand on his shoulder from behind and said "Nice suit you have" in front of everyone.

He has not touched me again so far. Now he salutes me politely.

Lucio Buffalmano, Kavalier and Mats G have reacted to this post.

#500 · February 28, 2023, 2:34 am

Quote from B on February 28, 2023, 2:34 am
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 1:42 am
Quote from Bel on February 25, 2023, 8:58 pm
Gofundme emergency request
I am ... Those who know me know the worker I am and the sacrifices I make for any thing I believe in and that all I have I EARN
THE DAY ... BETWEEN ... AND ... MY MOTORBIKE WAS STOLEN IN FRONT OF THE GYM IN FULL DAY IN STREET ...
Beside the enormous affection I have for the bike after many years of work and savings but the value of the price too high to be able to afford another one now it's impossible for my finances in red
I hope between my closest contacts and others someone may understand me really donating a QUOTE that for you is a symbol but for me very significant and helpful.
I am the business of myself working as a professional
And as all businesses when you have a crumble you ask a financial help
THANK YOU FROM THE HEART TO ALL THOSE THAT WILL CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THIS DONATION ALLOWING ME TO RETURN WITH THE BIKE I HAD
This is real, from a person that works as a gym instructor that sent it to all his contacts.
And he collected 400 from this.
It seems incredible to me.
I think he used many persuasion principles here:
- eliciting pity
- framing contributions as a small act for the donors, with high importance for him
- framing himself as (normally) contributing to others, hinting he will resume doing so
- framing request as exceptional ("I earn everything I have")
- hinting that those who received the request are "closest contacts"
- normalizing his request.
I see a contradiction though between him writing "I am a business" and then in the next line "all businesses ask for help when they crumble".
I also think these kinds of things do damage to credibility both in the short and the long run.
Interesting.
What is it like a physical paper he hang, or was it online?
I'm also interested that you thought it was incredible, would have expected him not to raise anything?
It was online, on the Gofundme website - which I now discovered is used precisely for these kinds of things.
He then spread the webpage around via Whatsapp to his contacts.
I find it incredible he raised money with this, although I now understand his success derives mainly from the contacts he has developed in real life with people, and less on the actual "request".
I also would never personally make an "emergency funding request" for anything. I find it manipulative to ask for "contribution" to "be able to buy back something I lost".
He could just continue doing his work and then buy back one when he can.
Assuming there is a legitimate use for these kinds of requests, I also think these have a "limited maximum number" in one's life. He used one. If he starts doing this regularly, people are going to stop being responsive. So why use an "emergency funding request" for a bike, when he could find himself in much direr straits in the future?

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 1:42 am
Quote from Bel on February 25, 2023, 8:58 pm
Gofundme emergency request
I am ... Those who know me know the worker I am and the sacrifices I make for any thing I believe in and that all I have I EARN
THE DAY ... BETWEEN ... AND ... MY MOTORBIKE WAS STOLEN IN FRONT OF THE GYM IN FULL DAY IN STREET ...
Beside the enormous affection I have for the bike after many years of work and savings but the value of the price too high to be able to afford another one now it's impossible for my finances in red
I hope between my closest contacts and others someone may understand me really donating a QUOTE that for you is a symbol but for me very significant and helpful.
I am the business of myself working as a professional
And as all businesses when you have a crumble you ask a financial help
THANK YOU FROM THE HEART TO ALL THOSE THAT WILL CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THIS DONATION ALLOWING ME TO RETURN WITH THE BIKE I HAD
This is real, from a person that works as a gym instructor that sent it to all his contacts.
And he collected 400 from this.
It seems incredible to me.
I think he used many persuasion principles here:
- eliciting pity
- framing contributions as a small act for the donors, with high importance for him
- framing himself as (normally) contributing to others, hinting he will resume doing so
- framing request as exceptional ("I earn everything I have")
- hinting that those who received the request are "closest contacts"
- normalizing his request.
I see a contradiction though between him writing "I am a business" and then in the next line "all businesses ask for help when they crumble".
I also think these kinds of things do damage to credibility both in the short and the long run.
Interesting.
What is it like a physical paper he hang, or was it online?
I'm also interested that you thought it was incredible, would have expected him not to raise anything?

It was online, on the Gofundme website - which I now discovered is used precisely for these kinds of things.

He then spread the webpage around via Whatsapp to his contacts.

I find it incredible he raised money with this, although I now understand his success derives mainly from the contacts he has developed in real life with people, and less on the actual "request".

I also would never personally make an "emergency funding request" for anything. I find it manipulative to ask for "contribution" to "be able to buy back something I lost".

He could just continue doing his work and then buy back one when he can.

Assuming there is a legitimate use for these kinds of requests, I also think these have a "limited maximum number" in one's life. He used one. If he starts doing this regularly, people are going to stop being responsive. So why use an "emergency funding request" for a bike, when he could find himself in much direr straits in the future?

Lucio Buffalmano and Kavalier have reacted to this post.