Former Community – We Moved
🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.
Bel's thoughts
Thank you Kavalier,
she sure is!
The disconnect between the "initial" moment of power-awareness and the "final" moment of power-skill
There is a disconnect between the "initial" moment of power-awareness and the "final" moment of power-skill.
I remember when I started figuring out, not much time before I got on TPM, that some people were deliberately using "social power" rules to their advantage against me.
After that moment, I found myself in many situations where I was aware that someone was or had played a power move on me, but was totally clueless on how to handle it.
One example is here: a woman basically engineered for me to expend effort to talk to her in public, to then purposely shun me and get away. She was successful in her move, but I was still aware that something "bad" had transpired.
Since power movers only "get" that the person in front of them is capable of defending him/herself when their power move is successfully checked, this explains the initial period of time where one "feels" he is constantly being disrespected by everyone and that they "do not relent".
As Lucio said, it's likely one had always been played like that, but was never aware.
Now, one is aware, but incapable of "checking it", so people are going to continue.
Only when one learns to "check it" do power moves tend to reduce.
Narcissists, real narcissists, are parasites
So far I had a only a “common sense” view of the meaning of the word “narcissist”.
I thought narcissists were just people who are more insecure than normal, who require a bit more hand-holding, who are suffering, who make mistakes, who have an inferiority complex masked by a fake superiority complex.
But these are not narcissists.
When we say someone is a bit narcissistic, we mean he or she is really just a normal person who has been abused and has low self esteem, and needs reempowerment.
And who may sometimes seek that reempowerment in ways that may be a bit “wrong”.
As we all are, and do, through life. We all make mistakes, we all do wrong sometimes.
But now I finally am able to see what a narcissist, a true narcissist, really is.
A narcissist is a parasite.
A narcissist, a true narcissist, is a hateful, spiteful, vengeful, envious, jealous person parading for a normal empathetic person.
He is a person who just hates everyone else, including his own children, but knows he has to fake loving them to better manipulate them.
She is a person who is so evil that she does not have any qualms about enslaving mentally her own children, just to show she’s the boss, all the while gaslighting their mental sanity into oblivion and craziness, just because she so hates life and goodness in people that she has to destroy it as much as possible.
She isolates the mark from anybody who really cares, destroys his self-esteem by means of death by a thousand cuts, and is not satisfied until the mark is totally broken, incapable of living, really psychotic.
I could understand psychopathy after all. It was easy. That, I always fought back, at least unconsciously.
But narcissism… narcissism was worse for me.
She was really, really, really the best manipulator I have ever met.
She was my final, metaphorical, personal boss-level.
My thoughts on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, Bel:
To spot the more subtle ones, most online guides or books are not very helpful but you need to develop power awareness.
This is because most guides/videos either:
- Focus on the most obvious cases (and often after the events): including TPM videos here. It's Elizabeth Holmes, Saltbae, etc.
- Describe general tendency, but not the specific steps: just reading "they isolate people" or "they gasalight them" is of little use if one doesn't have the awareness to see exactly how that happens. And it's often subtle, and spread out over the long-term
Hello Bel,
I think your anger is a perfectly normal reaction to realizing one has been abused. To be clear: I think it is a sign of self-respect.
What I would be careful about though is calling narcissists “parasites”. To me this is dehumanizing. I’m not implying anything bad about you. I’m saying it’s a risky mindset. I had the same reaction and was very cautious with narcissists.
I think it has 2 side-effects:
It prevents empathizing with them and therefore one runs the risk not to be able to collaborate with them on a superficial level. So there is the risk of not meeting one’s need since the narcissist will sense the cautiousness and will label us as enemy. Then we run the risk of being the target of a smear campaign (their favourite tactic when they smell an enemy). See my interaction with the head nurse. There is the risk of making enemies that were not our enemies in the first place through fake rumours spread by the narcissist (at work but also in social life). So we want them to think we’re not a threat. We even want them to even like us I think. And I think it is through empathy and asking superficial questions about them while not being vulnerable ourselves. Social strategy as usual. So to me the goal is to have a good relationship with narcissists in the long run (they might have access to resources that we want and we will encounter them in our lives anyway so better good relationships than bad ones). That’s the WIIFM.
Second, I think that despite their mental disorder they are still people. So they do what they do because as you know all that matters to them is their self-interest. However they are still part of the human family and most of the time play a role in our societies. They’re bosses, mothers, fathers, etc. Albeit largely imperfect ones. So I think it’s also helpful to see the good in them. See them as the whole person. My mother is a narcissist but she still takes care of my nephew and nieces sometimes. She helped me with money in the past. She gave me good advice that helped me make the choice of going into medicine. She also gave birth to me. All this took me a long time to see it this way and I’m aware it’s not the only (or not even the best) way of seeing it. It’s quite recent I view them that way though.
I’m not saying you should think like that either. What I’m saying is I think it is important to be careful with certain labels that could backfire on us by possibly creating negative relationship frames and indirectly and involuntarily enemies.
I’m not defending them or their behaviour either I hope it’s clear.
I’m happy to read if you have comments on this.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 24, 2023, 9:52 amMy thoughts on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, Bel:
To spot the more subtle ones, most online guides or books are not very helpful but you need to develop power awareness.
This is because most guides/videos either:
- Focus on the most obvious cases (and often after the events): including TPM videos here. It's Elizabeth Holmes, Saltbae, etc.
- Describe general tendency, but not the specific steps: just reading "they isolate people" or "they gasalight them" is of little use if one doesn't have the awareness to see exactly how that happens. And it's often subtle, and spread out over the long-term
I totally agree, Lucio.
In fact it was your very detailed article listing gaslighting behaviors that ultimately opened my eyes.
Most of all, playing dumb, manipulative summation, and manipulative learner's frames.
I believe it is the best resource on gaslighting ever.
Your post, btw, makes me want to make a stub post on "how manipulators isolate people". I think I'll write it.
Quote from Bel on July 24, 2023, 7:36 pmI totally agree, Lucio.
In fact it was your very detailed article listing gaslighting behaviors that ultimately opened my eyes.
(...)
Your post, btw, makes me want to make a stub post on "how manipulators isolate people". I think I'll write it.
That'd be awesome!
TPM has long been longing a Bel's post :).
And seriously, I think you could add a lot of value there, and help many people in similar situations.
Edit:
By "post" I mean a proper article.
In writing the thread on how manipulators isolate, I was recounting what was done to me.
I survived all this. I went through hell and back.
I made it, somehow.
Reminds of a rap song lyrics:
Been to hell and back, I can show you vouchers
Except, you got a lot better to show for it than just vouchers:
- power awareness
- a past of overcoming adversity
- turning that adversity into positive change
Yes, true.
This reminds me of a quote:
Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters. - Victor Hugo
Of course, it's a simplification. You see the point of course. Looking for other quotes, I'll pepper them if you don't mind maybe you will like them as I do:
“And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.”- Murakami
“Adversity introduces a man to himself.” – Albert Einstein
And of course I have to quote the stoics:
“Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body.” ―
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." – Marcus Aurelius
This one above never fails to give me the chills. Marcus Aurelius is next level in wisdom. Like this one, about anti-fragility:
Just as nature takes every obstacle, every impediment, and works around it—turns it to its purposes, incorporates it into itself—so, too, a rational being can turn each setback into raw material and use it to achieve its goal. - Marcus Aurelius.
Constant misfortune brings this one blessing: to whom it always assails, it eventually fortifies. - Seneca
I know there are many. I could not help myself: I love adversity and stoicism. I hope you will as well.
