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Feedbacks & clarifications

Do you actually have proof and evidence there is a coalesced, organize power group behind the scenes that control the world, independently of various politicians, despots, and billionaire businessmen?
If you do, there weren't any in the words that followed in that post.

Hi my friend. Permission to be frank.

I does not say that there is a power group completely independent of politicians and businessmen. What I said is there is a power group with goals "diverged from the local politician" (Thanks to Stef), and therefore "does not represent any specific country". My main message was that the effect of COVID is sometimes exaggerated and sometimes suppressed, when comparing regions with regions.

Clearly, the world is interconnected, and it will be unwise for anyone to claim that if there is a group completely independent of any politicians or businessmen. Power groups exert influence through those politicians and well-known people. It will be unwise for them to not to use them.

I acknowledge that I don't have the emotional intelligence to understand why you misrepresented my words, so I am open to learn more. Probably I was not clear enough, probably I have poor communication skills, or probably you over-think my words with good reasons. I believe you have good intentions as a friend and a good leader.

Here are some examples that my words are my key messages are reframed

Lucio: Napoleon is over-hyped.

Selffriend: I agree that Napoleon is over-advertised. I think that Napoleon did cast a long-lasting influence in Europe because of his non-military achievements.

Lucio's later feedback: Selffriend says "Napoleon and Cleopatra were great when Lucio was making the point they were over-hyped". Selffriend "is finding faults". People "can see you as uncollaborative, unfriendly, and not an ally". "A boss might feel that you are diminishing his authority."

The sentences: "selffriend says Napoleon and Cleopatra were great when Lucio was making the point they were over-hyped" reframed my meaning; it seems like Lucio was making a fair point that Napoleon is over-hyped and Selffriend is disagreeing. In fact, Selffriend was (and is still) clearly and explicitly agreeing with Lucio's point that Napoleon is over-hyped.

Here is another example:

Lucio: I try to see why Musk is a great sales man.

Selffriend: Since Lucio want to see this, I will make an attempt to solve this.

Lucio's feedbackSelffriend "is finding faults". People "can see youas uncollaborative, unfriendly, and not an ally". "A boss might feel that you are diminishing his authority."

Today's example seems follow a similar pattern from my limited knowledge:

Selffriend: There exists a power group that does not represent any specific country.

Lucio's feedback: Selffriend says that "there is a coalesced, organize power group behind the scenes that control the world, independently of various politicians, despots, and billionaire businessmen".

It seems like Selffriend's words are rephrased and reframed.

I can provide more examples if you want. This serves as a friendly feedback to improve my communication skills and clarify my intentions.

It could be a power move that rephrases someone's words and reframe someone's intended meanings. I personally dislike using power moves, especially "rephrase" or reframing, because this puts the original meanings and intentions aside, and the original speaker will be frustrated.

I am still acquiring enough knowledge to fairly judge so I don't have an opinion for now. Are you trying put yourself at a higher power/status than others, such that you are correct at the most of time and others are usually mistaken? I acknowledge that I am a human so I made a lot of mistakes and I don't regret or resent them; I don't seek authority here as I am here to learn rather than sell my ideas. I also understand if you seek power and authority, because you are the leader here (of course, by saying "if", I am talking about a hypothetical scenario which is not necessarily true). As you said, "for sure there is lots of ego and saving face."

Again, this feedback serves as a friendly feedback to improve my communication skills and clarify my meanings. If you would also like to clarify, I will be happy. If not, I will not be angry. In fact, I here to learn so I do care clarification of the learning materials such as this

I understand that you don't have too much time. I respect your time and your work. So if say that you don't have the time to clarify this question, I will be also happy.

 

Selffriend,

I'm sticking to the latest exchange here, and not revisiting the old ones.

In that thread, given those messages that preceded:

  1. I -I- felt that your message strongly supported that specific view of a "power behind the scenes" that was described a few posts above -I might have misread, of course, but it's not the main point here-
  2. I also felt your message took a strong line, promised big, but then failed to deliver a convincing argument

Number two is most important, because it made me lose some respect in your judgment.

When you have a few posts like those, then you might lose some status, power, and influence in people's eyes -or, at least, to those who have an attitude similar to mine-.

You might not care about status/authority in the forum, that's good.
At the same time, the dynamics in this forum also replicate in real life, and that's why we feedback each other.

That was my feedback, you do with it whatever you please.
Including disregarding it, and believing that Lucio was an idiot for misunderstanding and/or misreading your words, which is most certainly possible.

If more people have more to add on the topic and share their opinion, please do.

Edit: typos.


Different topic/feedback

Be careful with this wording:

Are you trying put yourself at a higher power/status than others, such that you are correct at the most of time and others are usually mistaken?

Because this one frames me as an asshole, and I didn't appreciate it.

The way I see it, I'm using my time to give value-adding feedback, plus risking that the feedback-recipient might get offended, turn into a frenemy, and/or drag me into yet longer and time-consuming debates-.
That's why, selfishly, it's not so much of a winning situation for me to give feedback.

The feedback might not add value, but saying that I'm distorting events or making up mistakes so that I can gain forum-power over you or others is a low accusation.

There is also a strategy question here.

In life, you can certainly meet people who correct others on purpose to acquire more power -BTW, wanting power is normal and fine, the how one goes about it is the question-.
But if you want to learn from them, it's not usually a good life strategy to imply they're acting like aholes.

Stef has reacted to this post.
Stef
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Hi Lucio, I see you as a friend. My original reply was citing Stef's comment and adding a little bit on it. Stef's short comment was about "a power group with goals diverging from local politicians"; my comment was about "a power group that does not represent a specific country".

You don't have to use "idiot" or "asshole" to describe people in my personal opinion - I understand that you have good reasons and intentions.

Again, I might be interpret this wrongly and I might not be clear enough. But it seems like my meaning was reframed again. I agree that one single sentence you mentioned, if taken alone, is very misleading - truly sorry for being emotional. I was simply noting that Lucio rarely admit crucial mistakes (probably for good reasons; I am not asking anyone to admit mistakes here as Lucio mentioned "people have egos"), while most others are very open to admit mistakes.

Below is my original whole message, which serves to say that I don't have enough knowledge to judge; so I asked a question which is opinion-neutral. As you said, seeking power is normal and natural, so there is nothing shame in it. In my paragraph, I also acknowledge that I made mistakes and more than happy to learn more.

Probably I was not clear enough, probably I have poor communication skills, or probably you over-think my words with good reasons.

I am still acquiring enough knowledge to fairly judge so I don't have an opinion for now. Are you trying put yourself at a higher power/status than others, such that you are correct at the most of time and others are usually mistaken? I also understand if you seek power and authority, because you are the leader here (of course, by saying "if", I am talking about a hypothetical scenario which is not necessarily true). This is friendly feedback serve to improve my communication skill and clarify my meanings.

Instead, it seems like you take one single sentence from the whole paragraph, trying to impose a frame that "people is using an a-hole strategy". I reject this frame, as well as the previous "idiot" frame. I don't think anyone deserves to be called idiot and a-hole. You are smart, respectful, successful, and valuing-adding with a good leaderships style, Lucio.

Selffriend,

Waters are getting muddled here and going nowhere.

The feedback above was simple:

  1. Your message I first quoted from another thread made you lose status in my eyes
  2. Part of your reply, the one I quoted, framed me like an asshole pulling power moves for power

Both feedbacks stand (and I ignore the babying bit or we'll never end).

You seem to still disagree, cool it's your right.
I disagree with your points, it's also my right.
Let's agree to disagree and let's move out of this endless loop.

Cheers and see you around other topics!

Stef has reacted to this post.
Stef
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

No no no Lucio, my friend, I mostly agree with you. Let me shortly explain.

Your points (I could be interpreting them wrong, feel free to correct):

  1. Selffriend's comment make him lose status because of the following logics:
    1. Selffriend has not yet provide proof and evidence there is a coalesced, organize power group behind the scenes that control the world, independently of various politicians, despots, and billionaire businessmen
    2. It is not good to say that there exists a coalesced, organize power group behind the scenes that control the world, independently of various politicians, despots, and billionaire businessmen
    3. Additionally, Selffriend's communication styles could be poor
  2. Selffriend's one single sentences is using an "asshole strategy"

I agree with your 1.1 and 1.2 as I said "the world is interconnected, and it will be unwise for anyone to claim that if there is a group completely independent of any politicians or businessmen." I was focusing on "a power group that does not represent a specific country".

I also agree with your 1.3.

I mostly agree with point 2: "the one single sentence you mentioned, if taken alone without context, is very misleading". I was supposed to express my meaning in a more friendly way. I thought I was clear enough: I don't have the knowledge to judge you and I am opinion neutral; I do apologize if my message was not clearly conveyed and made you felt bad.

My point is also simple:

  1. Open to admit mistakes (if any) make the entity (people, organization, and country) more powerful
  2. Reframing does not make people being reframed very comfortable
  3. No one deserves to be described as idiot or a-hole. Lucio is smart, successful, and respectful.

I'm not sure if jumping in with my external feedback would be helpful since that may lead to a more drawn out discussion.

But to facilitate communication and understanding in the future,

@ratdodo

Would you prefer us to

  1. leave you out of feedback on this thread
  2. give feedback in a direct manner (or maybe you have a preference on how feedback is delivered)
  3. ask if you would like feedback before giving feedback on each situation

Any option is fine with me personally :).
I don't speak for all others though.


Separate Matter - Should We Approach Giving Feedback Differently for Newer Members?

I think this thread has been here for quite some time.
As Lucio have mentioned a while ago, people may get a shock when receiving feedback over here, especially for the first time.

I was thinking for first-timers, maybe we should point them to the first post and request them to read
First Post Explaining the Why for this Thread, Feedbacks & Clarifications
Followed by asking them whether they would like feedback.
Though it's definitely more time-consuming.

I think most people would gain by reading Lucio's review of the book
Thanks for the Feedback
to get the most out of this thread.

Lucio Buffalmano and selffriend have reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmanoselffriend

Please jump in, Matthew!

I'm longing for someone to also give me feedback and to weigh on my own feedback-giving!

You raise good questions, sometimes I'm reading a message and thinking "I can see some issues here I could feedback on", but then sometimes refrain myself as I think it might be "too much" for some, and that especially includes first-time or new posters.

Matthew Whitewood has reacted to this post.
Matthew Whitewood
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Give me some time :).

I think the main issue is that people confuse the user Lucio and the admin Lucio. Though you have communicated the distinction multiple times.

We all need to wear multiple hats from time to time.

However, people find it hard to separate relationships like personal and work relationships.

It is even harder when it's on the same platform, the medium is digital. It becomes very challenging to emotionally & intuitively discern 2 personnas & roles from 1 profile.

There's a trust factor too. For the long-standing members, we have been building trust with you (Lucio). So we understand that you will choose to wear the right hat in a given circumatances.

Maybe an admin Lucio profile and a user Lucio profile would help discern between the 2. I haven't thought about this in detail.

Scalability of Quality Forums

I saw that more & more people are joining the forums. You are completely right that it is harder to manage. I did not see this as clearly as you did like we discussed on another thread.

I see the time required to give feedback as potentially not the root issue. The root issue is the challenge of handling influx of new users while maintaining the quality.

I think that this has been achieved to a large degree when you won over quite a few long-standing members to maintain and contribute actively to the forum while feeling like we tangibly grow and gain out of the forum.

We may have entered the next phase in building the forum culture, which is why it may get challenging :).

Lucio Buffalmano, Transitioned and selffriend have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoTransitionedselffriend
Quote from Matthew Whitewood on April 28, 2021, 6:04 am

Would you prefer us to

  1. leave you out of feedback on this thread
  2. give feedback in a direct manner (or maybe you have a preference on how feedback is delivered)
  3. ask if you would like feedback before giving feedback on each situation

Any option is fine with me personally :).
I don't speak for all others though.


 

Hi Matthew. I am so happy that you asked! As you can see from my previous response, I am almost open to feedbacks. Even if the comments contain explicitly insulting or abusive words, I will objectively and seriously consider the content, learn from it, and even agree with the reasonable part of it.

So therefore, you could choose any forms of feedback you like, Matthew.


Separate question.

@lucio-2

To facilitate communication and understanding in the future, and to show our respect to Lucio,

Would you prefer us to

  1. leave you out of feedback on this thread
  2. give feedback in a direct manner (or maybe you have a preference on how feedback is delivered)
  3. ask if you would like feedback before giving feedback on each situation

Any option is fine with me personally :).

Sometimes I refrain myself as I think it could be "too much" for someone respectable.

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on April 28, 2021, 8:53 am

(...)

Thank you, Matthew!

Yes, maybe the separation user/admin could be quite helpful.

It would come at the cost of time though, as I usually always have a page open taking notes of a review I'm making, preparing an article, or working on something, and then I should switch if I want to reply or quickly write a forum entry.

BUT, something to keep in mind for sure.

@selffriend,

Do as you'd do to anyone else here.

Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?