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Hey Lucio,

Quick thoughts on this:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 8, 2022, 1:29 am

Thank you for this, Ali!

Feedback on the "final rating review" now.

(...)

When you added "now" at the end of your sentence that came right after your "thank you", it felt to me like you were saying, "Thank you, Ali, and now that we've gotten that ["thank you"] out of the way, here's what I really want to say."

I would've preferred if you simply left out the "now".

But, I consider you a better feedback giver than me, so maybe you were right to put it. And, I certainly don't consider myself more socially skilled than you, so would be curious to hear if you think my feeling is off.

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Lucio Buffalmano

Thank you for this note, Ali!

Hopefully more people will follow suit and give me feedback :).

You're right.
My intention was to use that line -and that "now"- as a sort of "line break between concepts", highlighting that the thank you was genuine and standing on its own, and the feedback was genuine and standing on its own.

Obviously, it didn't work out well and the way your read it is solid, so I'm sorry that it ended up power-movey.

Also, even while writing it I thought that it wasn't cool to have so much space for a feedback that ended up semi off-topic on a thread that was about a review.
And the "feedback" part ended up much bigger than the "thank you" part, and since people often associate length of a message/sentence to importance, it also makes it feel like the gratitude part was way too small compared to the feedback part -which wasn't really the case-.
My bad for that as well.

A better approach for next time:

  • Use an actual line break
  • Use 2 messages
  • Post the longer feedback on its own thread
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Ali ScarlettTransitionedKavalier
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

All good, of course, Lucio, and thank you for the detailed analysis :).

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Lucio BuffalmanoKavalier

Hello @aliscarlett

I'm putting this note here not because it's anything big or because it was as notable as any other entry.

Instead, a super small thing and I'm putting it here only knowing how interested you are in self-development, and because it may add some value to you (and wouldn't have made a note if it was a newer member).

In this post here:

Quote from Ali Scarlett on December 6, 2022, 5:30 pm
Quote from Bel on December 6, 2022, 5:01 pm

Hi Ali,

I'm very interested in this, as I also was wondering what it was that had led Reddit to flag the review as "suspicious":

Quote from Ali Scarlett on December 6, 2022, 3:56 am

If you want any feedback on how you might be able to make your review sound a little more authentic, happy to share my thoughts.

Yeah, happy to do a full analysis, but only if AJ (@amr) is comfortable with it.

So, AJ, if you're reading this, up to you.

That's a great approach to first ask for the "OK" from AJ.

I'd have done the exact same.

So that's the 99%.

A slightly different wording would also make it sound a bit more palatable to Bel (and thus maintain more rapport/social capital).

Instead of "but only if", which can feel like a bigger door shut in the receiver's face, with the receiver having no say whatsoever, one may word that in a softer way. For example:

happy to do a full analysis, let's just first wait to see if AJ is (also) cool with it.

The slight differences:

  • But only if VS Let's: "but only if" sub-communicates the receiver has no say in this, he's completely powerless. It may feel like a "dangling the carrot power move", but he has no way of reaching it.
    Compare with "let's", which sub-communicate that "you and I we're on the same page and team, Bel"
  • Just first wait: sub-communicate the carrot is close and likely to happen, since AJ is likely to be cool about it (this puts more pressure on AJ to say "yes" by the way, but it's fair enough given this community's mindsets). It also feels like more of an open door to Bel.
  • Also: AJ is also "one of us" with that. Now AJ only has to say "yes" to join the group of cool guys who seek feedback for self-development
  • "cool VS comfortable": a detail and possibly even more my own interpretation than an objective truth. But "comfortable" feels slightly more disempowering. Especially if AJ refuses, then that he's "not comfortable" hints a bit more at a possible fragile ego. Instead, "I'm not cool with it" can mean a host of different things.

As I said, super small details on an overall great and eagle-like approach.

And, if any, happy to read any note from either your or Bel (or anyone, actually) on this.


Edit:
Sometimes to understand a concept, it's useful to take another example, but more extreme.
So imagine if in dating a girl said: "yeah, happy to meet you, but only if my mom is comfortable with it". It feels like you can't do a thing about it, and almost an invitation for you to chase her mom's approval and convince her.
Very disempowering for both of you: it all hangs upon a third party.
Then compare "yeah, happy to meet you, let's only wait for my mom to confirm she's (also) cool with it". Very different feel for you, right? Now she's a girl who wants to meet you, who is also more in control of her life, and her mother is very likely going to be cool with this all. With this format,the  mom already likes you, it's a confirmation that you're waiting for only.

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Ali ScarlettTransitionedKavalierBel
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Thank you so much, Lucio!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 7, 2022, 2:12 am

(...)

As I said, super small details on an overall great and eagle-like approach.

(...)

Yes, a small thing, but the small things add up.

This is really great feedback and I felt something saying the "but", yet also felt it was probably my imagination and that I was overthinking it (since I seem to be transitioning out of the over-analyzation phase in some areas of power dynamics).

So, big thank you, Lucio. And, of course, my bad, Bel, no harm meant :).

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KavalierBel

Also, curious to hear any thoughts on this:

Ali: "...I think that might be a cool way to give value to TPM if the course is good, so happy to do it."

I got the feeling this might've come across as a social exchange manipulation because it didn't underline again that I'd also be gaining from it.

So, probably better would've been to simply add:

Ali: "...I think that might be a cool way to give value to TPM if the course is good, plus I'd be getting some more learning in, so happy to do it."

Thoughts?

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Kavalier

Guys, I agree with Lucio’s feedback which is full of things I myself can benefit from.

Only thing I wish to add is that, when I read Ali’s answer, I felt there was a chance I could never know about the thing in the review we were discussing.

But at the same time, I instantly realized that Ali’s wording was not intended to break rapport or anything. I sensed only good intentions, also because in my past interactions with Ali and in his other posts on the forum I had clearly felt his empathy and friendliness.

And that preceded Ali and my interpretation of his post.

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Lucio BuffalmanoAli ScarlettKavalier
Quote from Ali Scarlett on December 7, 2022, 3:11 am

Also, curious to hear any thoughts on this:

It's a good analysis, but what Bel said perfectly applies here as well:

Quote from Bel on December 7, 2022, 3:16 am

I instantly realized that Ali’s wording was not intended to break rapport or anything. I sensed only good intentions, also because in my past interactions with Ali and in his other posts on the forum I had clearly felt his empathy and friendliness.

And that preceded Ali and my interpretation of his post.

Yep, same thing.

A good thing about longer-term win-win and a good reputation is then you cut things short sometimes, be more direct, even less careful... And it's still not an issue because of all the social capital, good past interactions, and general high regard that people hold you to.

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Ali ScarlettJohn Freeman
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
Quote from Grigorio on December 13, 2022, 11:50 pm

If I am allowed to very carefully structure some criticism, on the female side of thepowermoves, I believe the appearance guides are perfectly correct

But

Lacking some of the more "hidden truths no one will tell you out of politeness" that I have come to love and expect here

I'd like to bring forth, thus, the following https://www.jsanilac.com/dispelling-beauty-lies/

Not a book, and thus not necessarily 100% appropriate, but I believe it's very useful in filling in uncomfortable yet demonstrable realities of the matter (also touches upon male beauty with a few very useful insights)

Hello @grigorio ,

If you're not familiar with this thread, check out the beginning to see what it's about.

In brief: it's about feedback on forum interactions.
It's always a risk to post here for the poster since the receiver may not always welcome the feedback (and end up resenting the poster).
But since we aim for self-development and antifragile ego and use this thread/forum as training for life, we still encourage to go for it because feedback here can be a huge boost for learning and self-development.


Feedback on the feedback intro from this other thread:

when one asks if he is "allowed to very carefully structure some criticism", think about what that sub-communicates about the receiver.

That the receiver is open and welcoming of feedback and criticism?
Or that he may instead be a very thin-skinned, fragile egomaniac who cannot stand any feedback, argument, and criticism?

More like the latter, than the former.

And it doesn't do anything good for you: first, it feels like you're overly cautious about speaking your mind -you're an empowered member of the community with a voice and great things to say, why should you ask if you're "allowed" to speak up?-.

And second, no receiver likes to be framed and treated like a thin-skinned, fragile egomaniac.

This is similar to what we saw with another case of "over-power protecting" and "over-face saving" recently that only makes the issue and final disempowerment bigger, rather than smaller (article coming out soon).


OFF-TOPIC

As for the feedback itself, it's awesome and I actually agree -with a caveat-.

And also the link that I quickly checked seems great (edit: checked it even better, and the author misses on very important sample biases and distortions in the resources he brings forward. But he reaches very good conclusions similar to what we say here and in "exceptional dating". So still very good), thank you for sharing that.

As you also mentioned, since it's not a book you shared and since that's not the place for feedback/ideas/criticsm on TPM, feel free to open a thread to discuss that.

OFF-TOPIC

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Ali ScarlettJohn FreemanKavalierGrigorio
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Hey Lucio, thank you for this

It's true in general have a problem staying in the space where i am still signaling i am deferential to my interlocutor but not insulting them through implications (it was not my intention), and that space seems razor thin and shifting from person to person

It gets even worse because in my job (psychiatry resident) if you wish to make any progress, you must prioritize not triggering conflict and defensiveness from the people you talk to way more than usual, and their skin will actually bleed given a light poke

I acknowledge my mistake, I will try to correct for it, I am not certain if I will have properly calibrated by the next time i post and i would appreciate it if you could bear with me through that. I can't promise to not post till I figure it out because calibration demands some trial and error and is environment specific so i do need to experiment a bit? I am of course open to less harmful alternatives

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E ( X ) = μ = ∑ x P ( x )
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