Quote from John Freeman on January 9, 2023, 7:47 am

Self-criticism, here:

great attitude. You understood that most people in the World are focussed on what they can get for themselves. You identified this in yourself and are now moving now in a more win-win direction (WIIFT approach). Huge steps I think. So props to you for that.

Here I think it’s a teacher frame, which I’m working on to avoid. My intention was to summarize the OP’s progress, in order to know from where we were starting from. I think this could work in a private 1-on-1 setting as it is useful for the student as well. I think I could use it publicly IF I also self-frame as as student (which I am). This goes more in the win-win territory and in the “we’re all in this together” territory. Something like this:

great attitude. You understood that most people in the World are focussed on what they can get for themselves. You identified this in yourself and are now moving now in a more win-win direction (WIIFT approach). I’m currently also working on this.

This allows me to remove the encouragement and congratulations at the end which reinforces an up-down frame. So this brings in more of an equal vibe.

Also, I could simply remove the summary as it is not that useful and simply go:

Hey man,

great attitude to go in the win-win direction. (I think it’s always good to reinforce the positive in ourselves and others). I’m also working on this. Here is an additional mindset I propose to you:

So I think this is quite better than my original message.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 9, 2023, 11:23 am

Great analysis, John!

It may have been fair though since the original poster there was more of a beginner and you're not.

Just to be on the safe side, I'd have indeed power-protected a bit more and your inclusion was a great step in that direction -and your line "additional mindset I propose to you" is great).
Also adding a simple "I think" or "it seems to me" at the beginning of that message would have gone a long way to power-protect the OP.

Quote from John Freeman on January 10, 2023, 4:29 am

Thank you! I agree 100%.

Quote from Growfast on January 10, 2023, 7:51 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 6, 2023, 5:00 am

Hello Lucio,

thank you very much for your answer. Crystal clear: I got the message. I'll make sure to do better in the future and to use definitions only to bring value, not to defend myself. I'll also make sure to answer more briefly, clearly and early. I do sincerely think apologies are due, it's what is fair and what I owe (for too long now), regardless pressure or consequences. It's my fault, without a doubt.

To Growfast: 

Hey man,

I'm sorry for having made several power moves on you, it was not cool from me. I'll be more cautious in the future. Also, sorry for having dragged this whole conversation for too long. Excuse me.

To be honest, in order for us to get straight the way you talked to me was not cool. That being said, I don't want this to shadow the main message. The main message is that I regret my actions and will be more careful.

To Bel:

Hello Bel,

Excuse me, man. I misrepresented your message. That was stupid and disrespectful of me. I'll make sure not to do it again. I hope you are well.

To All:

I want to apologize to the community for the time it took to come to a resolution. I also want to apologize for the way I dealt with the situation and my poor communication and behaviour. I'm sorry for the mess it created. I'll make sure to do better in the future.

To Lucio:

Excuse me man for all the reasons above. I'll make sure to improve my behaviour.

Sincerely,

John

Thanks for this message.

I am sorry for using a curt tone on you, it wasn’t cool on my part.

looking forward to growing together.

Quote from B on January 11, 2023, 12:12 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 6, 2023, 5:00 am

To Bel:

Hello Bel,

Excuse me, man. I misrepresented your message. That was stupid and disrespectful of me. I'll make sure not to do it again. I hope you are well.

Hi John,

we're good, the very minor point we discussed had already resolved in my mind. I hope you're well as well.

Quote from B on January 11, 2023, 4:50 pm

I realize my post here above may come off as somewhat dismissive. So I want to say more:

I think the exchange that spurred the above was a minor thing, and checking it on my side was sufficient to reestablish balance here.

But Lucio was right that some clarification was in order, not only for John but for me as well, because of things that had transpired in the past.

Namely, as to our interactions, John, what somewhat cooled off things for me were some previous things, which I was not able to check correctly at the time. Some really irritated me, to be true, especially when I later understood their meaning and effect. Which may have been unwanted, but was still there.

But I have no interest in revisiting them now and besides, I learned from every single one of them, both in the sense of learning what effect they have and how to better address them, which is what I had started doing lately.

Also, I realize that my (initially) presenting my past experience in a certain way when I first got here (with somewhat of a “self-criticizing, focused on the past, attitude”) somewhat encouraged the possibility that interactions would go down a slippery slope.

Which is something I also found to be true in life. Presenting oneself as in need of “help” with a “self-criticizing” attitude somewhat encourages people to social climb on that.

Best instead to self-frame as “already good, needing to tweak a few things”. The problem is that sometimes one may be in real struggle. But I think that may be the topic for another thread though and, in any case, I have started to tweak that now.

So in the end we’re good John, talk soon.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 12, 2023, 12:50 am

Nice, great self-reflection there Bel, and some fantastic tips for general self-development as well.

Incidentally, that makes most self-help gurus' job to "take" from their audience much easier, because their customers/followers self-select from those most in need, and also approach them with a mindset and behavior as most in need.

Quote from Bel on January 11, 2023, 4:50 pm

Which is something I also found to be true in life. Presenting oneself as in need of “help” with a “self-criticizing” attitude somewhat encourages people to social climb on that.

Best instead to self-frame as “already good, needing to tweak a few things”. The problem is that sometimes one may be in real struggle. But I think that may be the topic for another thread though and, in any case, I have started to tweak that now.

It does indeed.

It's part of the (new) concept in PU of "the easier you make for someone to take, the more takers you will meet", and "take" in the large sense, including when you make it too easy to social climb and take status from you.

On the other hand, I also want to say that the new approach to flag all social climbing right away on the forum also helps to learn what you just said much faster (and indirectly also makes this a "safer" place to present oneself as one truly is, where one can more safely present himself honestly).

Quote from John Freeman on January 12, 2023, 4:58 am

Hello Growfast,

Thanks for your answer.

I want you to know that I accept your apology and thank you sincerely for accepting mine.

To be honest and straight with you so we're clear once and for all: more than the tone it was the provocations, insinuations, sarcasms and personal attacks. It's important for me that you know this in order for us to have a better relationship, at least from my side. Since I want to take my part in repairing our relationship, I choose not to pretend it was only the tone, I know myself: I would have resentment since I would not have expressed myself honestly. At this point, I think assertiveness is warranted. I learned from Lucio that it's better late than never. So I prefer to speak now. I should have done it earlier, that was a mistake. So it's clumsy now I know. I decide to express myself now in order to prevent this resentment.

That being said, I don't want the message above to minimize what I think and feel, so I'll say it again: I thank you sincerely for accepting my apology and for extending yours.

On my side, I feel we are clear now and can have a fresh start. The message above is to clear communication between us once and for all, not to restart it all neither to imply anything else than for me to be sure that you know what's in my head and heart. To be clear, I’m not asking for anything else. I would have preferred this to be private as these things are better communicated 1-on-1. I now know where you stand regarding power moves and I think it's also good that you know where I stand about the above. So we communicated to one another our personal boundaries. So I think now we both know our boundaries and can treat one another accordingly and respectfully, both ways of course. So I write this out of self-respect and to be as honest with you as I can be.

I would like us to have a good relationship, so I did my best for this message to go in this direction, I hope it is clear enough.

Looking forward to grow together as well,

Sincerely,

John

Quote from John Freeman on January 12, 2023, 7:33 am

Two corrections:

I accept your apology and thank you sincerely for accepting mine.

First sentence. I removed “I want you to know that” to express a tone more in line with my intention.

I learned that it's better late than never.

I removed “Lucio” as not to involve a 3rd party and/or to use the authority argument, both of which could give potentially more weight to my words. In this context, this is not about scientific writing. Therefore, it’s not about citing sources nor context in such cases. It’s a lesson I need to drill even more in my brain. Also if one wants to give proper credit to the person, this is not the right context to do so.

Corrected version, put again here for readability, please ignore the first one:

Hello Growfast,

Thanks for your answer.

I accept your apology and thank you sincerely for accepting mine.

To be honest and straight with you so we're clear once and for all: more than the tone it was the provocations, insinuations, sarcasms and personal attacks. It's important for me that you know this in order for us to have a better relationship, at least from my side. Since I want to take my part in repairing our relationship, I choose not to pretend it was only the tone, I know myself: I would have resentment since I would not have expressed myself honestly. At this point, I think assertiveness is warranted. I learned that it's better late than never. So I prefer to speak now. I should have done it earlier, that was a mistake. So it's clumsy now I know. I decide to express myself now in order to prevent this resentment.

That being said, I don't want the message above to minimize what I think and feel, so I'll say it again: I thank you sincerely for accepting my apology and for extending yours.

On my side, I feel we are clear now and can have a fresh start. The message above is to clear communication between us once and for all, not to restart it all neither to imply anything else than for me to be sure that you know what's in my head and heart. To be clear, I’m not asking for anything else. I would have preferred this to be private as these things are better communicated 1-on-1. I now know where you stand regarding power moves and I think it's also good that you know where I stand about the above. So we communicated to one another our personal boundaries. So I think now we both know our boundaries and can treat one another accordingly and respectfully, both ways of course. So I write this out of self-respect and to be as honest with you as I can be.

I would like us to have a good relationship, so I did my best for this message to go in this direction, I hope it is clear enough.

Looking forward to grow together as well,

Sincerely,

John