Quote from John Freeman on January 14, 2023, 5:13 am

As you know I wondered if that was appropriate or not. Since it's not: I think my answers deserve to be deleted but now it's a bit late.

I see I totally failed my communication here. I did my best though. Totally not my intention to do that.

Yes, I should have asked him to contact him in private. I f#Çd up. I think I need to take some distance as I'm quite exhausted these days and I see I'm not thinking clear enough.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 14, 2023, 5:15 am

Quick note on this without @ the user:

Quote from Emily on January 13, 2023, 8:01 pm

I read some articles about some killer star job seeker who was very sought after and used offers from multiple companies to compete with each other for a big, big compensation package. Wish all TPMers would have that level of freedom of power. 🙂

It's good Emily said "all", as that implies there are probably plenty of exceptions.

However, albeit unintentional and with value-giving intentions, that can still disempower both Emily and the community.

A person doing well and reading that may well (subconsciously) think:

Hmmm, who is she referring to?
I DO have that level of freedom and power -and more-.
And I got nothing to envy to that "star job seeker".

Imagine how an employer would feel to be compared to a "star job seeker" and being almost one-upped in comparison with him.

He will feel disconnected from Emily -and, potentially, form the community as a whole-.

To network well you don't want to sub-communicate you're so different than the high-power, successful folks.

Instead, you want to self-frame as high-power or as thinking like a future successful person.

Even if you're not (yet), at least 50% of it is in the mindsets and how you think of yourself.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 14, 2023, 5:18 am

Quote from John Freeman on January 14, 2023, 5:13 am

As you know I wondered if that was appropriate or not. Since it's not: I think my answers deserve to be deleted but now it's a bit late.

I see I totally failed my communication here. I did my best though. Totally not my intention to do that.

Yes, I should have asked him to contact him in private. I f#Çd up. I think I need to take some distance as I'm quite exhausted and I see I'm not thinking clear enough.

No problem, all good :).

Quote from John Freeman on January 14, 2023, 5:21 am

Alright good to know.

Something is not clear (at all) yet for me though: what is the difference between what I wrote and what Bel wrote?

I also want to move on. However i feel like I would be the one not to be able to express how I felt. If others could but I could not then I feel it’s not win-win. And then I would harbour resentment for having been hurt without the ability to speak my mind.

In this spirit my intention was to answer to Bel, however after your post I renounced it.

I do feel power down in this whole story without feeling I have been able to feel heard. There might be a lesson in there I have to learn yet. So I should take the lesson and move on is that it?

edit: it’s a dynamic I keep reliving again and again. I really have to work on that.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on January 14, 2023, 3:13 pm

John,

This last post seems to have a few power moves in it.

Quote from John Freeman on January 14, 2023, 5:21 am

Something is not clear (at all) yet for me though: what is the difference between what I wrote and what Bel wrote?

The difference isn't in what you said, it's in when it was said.

Bel expressed his feelings early on in his feedback exchange and once it was resolved, he left it there.

You've expressed your feelings before, exchanged apologies (which resolved the matter), then re-opened the issue by expressing more feelings.

Why asking, "What's the difference?" feels like it's not cool

Lucio said here:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 14, 2023, 5:07 am

(...)

...it can easily feel like one's apology was fake if one adds more and important clarifications later.
It can even feel like it was a trap setup to apologize first, make someone apologize after, and then add more details -feels like a last-word power move...

(...)

Here's the question we're probably all thinking:

Did Bel make the same mistake with his post?

No.

So, it feels "not cool" to ask, "What's the difference between my post and Bel's?" since anyone can read that feedback from Lucio and see that your post is quite different from Bel's (it's coming in way too late).

The "I didn't get a fair shake" power move

You said:

Quote from John Freeman on January 14, 2023, 5:21 am

(...)

...I feel like I would be the one not to be able to express how I felt. If others could but I could not then I feel it’s not win-win.

(...)

This frames you as the only one in the interaction who hasn't gotten the chance to express his feelings.

But, you did.

First, you spoke about your feelings here:

Quote from John Freeman on December 16, 2022, 10:28 pm

(...)

"...I felt (don't want to start it all over again, so subjective is warranted) I was attacked..."

(...)

...I chose to submit to Growfast (despite knowing it was not fair).

Lucio even validated your feelings in his response:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 17, 2022, 4:09 am

Thank you for this note, John.

I'm actually glad to hear that you knew/felt it wasn't cool.

(...)

And then, since the exchange had gotten dragged out, you brought it up again here:

Quote from John Freeman on January 5, 2023, 6:04 am

(...)

Regarding Growfast, I don't mind so much the aggressive tone, it's more about the provocations, insinuations, sarcasms and personal attacks.

(...)

So, now, it looks like you're implying that you were "singled out" and got unfair treatment from TPM.

And, that's not cool.

Next steps

John, I feel that you have a good drive to learn and I don't sense any malice or "evil" in your intentions when you accidentally pull these games.

So, before making any more posts in this feedback thread on this topic, I recommend revisiting the "Assertiveness" lesson in PU.

It answers much of your questions on addressing behavior earlier on as well as the downsides of waiting too long.

---

Feedback on this post is welcome.

Edit:

Adjusted some wording to be less hard-hitting as per Lucio's feedback below.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 14, 2023, 4:36 pm

Agree with the full content, Ali.

And just for the record, Ali and I spoke about these recent exchanges and are on the same page.

How the feedback is structured is also solid: on point, factual, brief, and crystal clear.

Now to provide some feedback:

Quote from Ali Scarlett on January 14, 2023, 3:13 pm

Why asking, "What's the difference?" feels manipulative

"Manipulative" is one of those strong hot buttons keywords.

It can be fair to use, but I'd also consider "not cool" as a possible replacement.

Also considering John's long history, the ton of value he's given, and his good reputation, it may make sense to go for "not so cool".

Quote from Ali Scarlett on January 14, 2023, 3:13 pm

Here's the question we're probably all thinking:

This "we're all" format can work great in marketing or in persuasion -and in drawing the audience in-.

When giving feedback thought it may feel like one may be (unnecessarily) ganging up on someone else.

Also, it may be higher power as a moderator to speak either in "I" form, or for TPM, and stand on those legs only.
Standing on one's own legs sub-communicates self-confidence.
Phraseology that sub-communicates support that hasn't yet been proven may call into question the speaker's self-reliance in the reader's mind -ie.: why is he talking for everyone else?-.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on January 14, 2023, 3:13 pm

But, you did.

First, you spoke about your feelings here:

(...)

You're super precise, Ali, and that's an incredible strength.

In a feedback situation, a different approach is to deliberately not back up your statements with examples and links.

That's because:

1. Many people remember
2. Many people know that, generally speaking, everyone's free to express himself here
3. Many people tend to trust a moderator over a non-moderator -you never want to rely on this, but it's part of the power dynamics-
4. Many people trust a high-credibility person who's d developed and proved his reputation over and over (and that's your case)
5. It can feel like "lawyering", rather than speaking from equally (if not more) valid "general feel" and "general principles that TPM respects"
   1. Strategically, that also opens you up to being retorted with more quotes, and then you're fighting the "quote and link battles" rather than standing on the more solid foundations of social capital and general principles

So by willingly not quoting and linking, you're still driving your point home, while also affording some power-protection and face saving (so, it's equally high-power, but also higher-warmth).

Your word as a fair and high-credibility moderator is often enough.

Exceptions:
In the past I did go for quotes with LoF in the very last message, and that's because he had gone overboard with a personal accusation and because many of the moves there were both old, covert, and sly. So I wanted to make sure that the reality of things was well-sourced and proven.
So in that case I needed that "lawyering" approach. 
But unless strictly needed, I generally prefer to avoid the quotes.

Quote from Kavalier on January 14, 2023, 5:44 pm

Hello, John

I was writing this post when Lucio and Ali posted their answers, so some things I address might be redundant. Feel free to ignore them as you see fit. I decided to publish it, though, because it's an honest feedback from a fellow member in the community, one who is in the same overall level in the forum hierarchy. Besides that, I wanted you to know that you are being heard and other people than the admins are reading your posts.

Something is not clear (at all) yet for me though: what is the difference between what I wrote and what Bel wrote?

To answer your question, I felt that Bel's post was a mostly a self-reflection on his own posture in the beginning of his activity in the forum, and why that might have invited power moves. In my interpretation, he was basically saying that if one presents oneself as power down, people (even if subconsciously) will tend to treat one as low status.

He started off by accepting your apologies, but at the time he was writing about "social climbing", he was not referring to you in particular, but concluding that this was a human pattern of behaviour, and, for that reason, people would rather present oneself as already being high-power (a similar conclusion to Lucio's feedback to Emily above). I thought Bel's reflection and advice was great.

So, Bel was not reopening the discussion. He was summing up his "lesson learned", giving value to everyone, and at the same time he was taking responsibility for the power moves he received from anybody. (By the way, sorry, Bel, if I have social climbed on you anytime in the past. If you remember any instance, pointing it out would help me address issues in my own pattern of speech I might not be aware of) He also started and ended saying things were cool (closing the loop, but not unilaterally so, because one end was already closed).

I agree with Lucio's and Ali's analysis on your post, on the other hand. And your last post might feel like pulling even Bel again into the fight, since now not only him, but those who gave him kudos for that, are invited to revisit his post.

Your last posts also come after an already very long and exhausting back and forth. While this comes from a sincere and admirable drive to learn and evolve, in real life, I see four major potential issues when one asks for too much feedback in a roll:

1) Others might see one as someone who refuses to take ownership of one's wrongdoings, as already pointed out

2) It might look like one doesn't let go of wrongdoings done by others against one. People tend to be wary of people who seem to not forget

3) Frames oneself as lower status (Bel's post really has value here), because it looks like others have to constantly explain things to one. It's a reputation one'd rather avoid. While in TPM I feel this applies less, because this is the place to let go of status and learn, we still run into issue 4:

4) It creates a social exchange imbalance. Answers have a cost in willpower and time, and if one is constantly asking for feedback, it starts to feel like one is outsourcing the thinking workload to others instead of doing it oneself. "Normal" forum questions don't have this feeling because people in the forum are not personally invested, and readers also gain in understanding with the case studies that the poster presents (especially when the poster presents a potential solution to his own question), so there's win-win. But in this thread the dynamics feel more "real".

I'm not saying the above is happening here, John. I know your contributions from PU even before I started engaging in the forum and whenever I'm struggling with something, I find a John's post that clarifies a course of action. The main reason why I open few threads in the forum is that, guess what, John already solved my problems months ago. So this post is more of a reminder of the potential pitfalls one might incur in daily life.

However I feel like I would be the one not to be able to express how I felt. If others could but I could not then I feel it’s not win-win. And then I would harbour resentment for having been hurt without the ability to speak my mind.

I feel the above is not something fair to say to us. Man, you have expressed yourself, wrote long and numerous posts, we read all of them, you received plenty of detailed answers (and are still receiving). Everyone is doing that because everyone values your presence in the forum and everything you have to say, even though sometimes we don't agree.

But sometimes it's best just to close the deal, accept that there will always be something pending, work internally what is pending and let go of it (take note of it just for the sake of power accounting, but don't invest too many mental loops in it nor bring it back when addressing future power moves), agree to work together and be watchful of future interactions, address recurring issues over time. Some things do take time to understand, but it's part of growing.

Sometimes injustice might happen, yes, but I think swallowing it and moving on is important. Sure, speaking up is still important to prevent resentment growth. But once one has already spoken up, it's better to let go even if it's imperfect. It's a matter of meeting the golden balance. The rest of resentment prevention is internal mental work.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 15, 2023, 3:51 am

Kavalier, what an awesome, awesome post, man!

Double-thumbs up stuff.

I'll probably take some of it for an upcoming lesson/upgrade on gaslighting VS straight behavior.

I was going to skirt that Bel comparison because to me it felt like being dragged into a diversion type of comparison between two posts that had very little in common -another danger of these dynamics: getting dragged into long drawn-out explanations that feel complex when the real issue are about the basics. See below-.

Questions and comparisons can sometimes divert from:

1. the main issue
2. the basics

And you always want to remain focused on the main issue and the basics, such as:

What's cool and straight behavior, and what's not.

Some of the most important foundations, in rough order of importance:

1. True VS False: Bel's post references old "not so cool behavior" that I also remember seeing. We didn't flag it back then because of a laxer approach, but I remember it. So to me, it was truthful.
   Instead, I don't remember many insinuations in Growfast's behavior: I remember him very straight and upfront. And his sarcasm was as a response to "not-so-cool behavior" that we discouraged from. So the other post frankly didn't feel truthful (which may be good feedback for John: may be taking things too personally, or seeing personal attacks where there aren't any, or that may be motivated by his own behavior? Edit: see here)
2. Straight VS Crooked: Bel's post was straight. No power moves, no games, just straight talk. There were power moves in the other post
3. Value-giving VS Value-taking: Bel's post was self-contained, didn't demand anyone's time or intervention and, bonus points, was packed with value-giving wisdom. The other one was value-taking for all the reasons Kavalier listed
4. High-Power VS Low-Power: Bel's post comes across as high-power, the other post as complaining, victim self-framing, and low-power

John may take a break from the forum -no moderation involved, his decision-.
He shared it with me and I hope he's OK with me sharing here, but I think it's fair that also others who have interacted with him know, and not just me.
It may be a good idea to take some distance (or let go) from this.
And I'll be very glad to talk and interact again whenever he feels like posting again. I join Kavalier on this: both because of the value John adds AND because it's just good to have him in here as a person.

Finally, on top of Ali's advice on the assertiveness lesson, I'm preparing a post/article(s) on gaslighting that will also list many of the dynamics we've seen here recently, plus some ways to deal with them, and get rid of them.
That will also be an important read -and, most of all, it will be good to apply it, of course-.

Quote from John Freeman on January 15, 2023, 5:45 am

Thank you very much Kavalier for your trust, acknowledgment and clarification. I understand the difference, the current dynamics and I feel understood. I'll do as you say.

After your post, I don't feel like taking a break anymore. I just moved on emotionally and mentally.

Thank you Ali for your note, I will reflect on it and check the section on assertiveness. I'm apparently missing something.

Thank you very much Lucio for your explanations, it's quite enlightening.

(for future reference: when I write something privately I prefer to keep it private or been asked before sharing it. But it's all good, no biggie. It's a very small thing :) ).