Former Community – We Moved
🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.
Feedbacks & clarifications
@Bel: about creating the topic that Lucio proposed me to create:
Hello Bel,
I came here today to create it so I was a bit surprised to see it created. I thought it did not deserve a thread, but if it does, I'm happy to create it.
To be honest, next time please let me know beforehand that would be cool as I started this topic.
But it's all good, no big deal :)
What matters is that the topic exist.
I prefer to let you know as from my understanding we now do this kind of feedbacks instead of staying quiet.
Hello John,
I understand your point of view, thank you for bringing this up. Though, I don't agree.
From my side, I didn't read Lucio as proposing that you create a specific topic.
And, I don't think that who creates a topic on a forum is indicative of anything but interest in talking about the topic.
Finally, I originally thought about posting the video on your journal: but I chose to create the other topic as I wanted to avoid cluttering your journal (where you shared a personal episode) with a more general discussion that did not belong there.
As you say, the specific matter in itself is no big deal. But I am definitely interested in understanding if there is an unwritten rule of politeness or auctorship that I may be unaware of here.
So, if you agree, I would be very interested in also hearing Lucio's thoughts on this if he so wishes.
Quote from Bel on February 12, 2023, 10:33 pmSo, if you agree, I would be very interested in also hearing Lucio's thoughts on this if he so wishes.
Yeah, glad to.
Just please let me add that everyone's welcome to share their thought and I'd be very happy to read what others also think.
I know you know this, but it's good to remind that there are plenty of eagles around here who can add value.
Even purely from an exchange point of view, if I only organize my ideas, I learn little (and you & John only learn from one person).
But if I read what the other smart and high-value guys around here think, I'll learn a lot -and it's going to a lot more valuable to you and John as well-.
I know you know that, Bel, but I still wanted to remind that to make it clear.
Hello Bel,
thank you for your answer: I agree. I also read Lucio's sentence again: I agree about the meaning of it. I misunderstood it in the first place, my mistake.
Hello, guys!
I think it's fair for Bel to create the thread. I would have communicated it a little bit differently, though.
Opening the thread as I’m very interested.
Quoting Lucio from John’s journal:
The reason why I think the above was not optimal is that Bel references an exchange that happened inside John's journal and doesn't give him much credit, and doesn't mention John's contributions to the interaction that generated the thread. Only Lucio is receiving credit in that quote.
I feel there's also an element of host/guest dynamics in the interaction that must be acknowledged. In some sense, I feel that one's journal is one's "home" in a certain sense.
There's definitely an imbalance, so, overall, I also think it was fair for John to address it. Especially because it's so small ("no big deal" in John's words), it's something that most people wouldn't address in a real interaction, so we wouldn't learn from it. Still, it's little details like this that make interactions run smoothly.
I think it would have had a different feeling if Bel had said something like:
Hey, John, that thread you started in your journal was so awesome that I couldn't help but run to create it when Lucio suggest it. I hope you don't mind!
That way you power protect John in case he wanted to create the topic, complimentary him and his journal, and even better, keep John in the conversation. Ideally, you also quickly summarize John's contributions to smoothen the transition and thread-expand on "continuing the conversation with John and Lucio another topic".
I've seen Lucio using this format very often and I think it works wonderfully.
By the way, it's a fantastic thread! I took at quick glance at it, but have not read much because I'm prioritising rereading PU instead of the forum.
Thank you for sharing Kavalier!
I agree about the host/guest dynamics in personal journals.
Which is why I think it's fair for John to have felt somewhat "off" to have found a topic taken from his journal and already created.
I may have felt the same. Not necessarily in a bad way but more in noticing it as in "oh, that was based on my life event from my journal and someone else now is running with it"-.
So yes, Bel may have helped assuage those feelings with more recognition and/or a bigger mention.
BUT...
I also agree with Bel's disagreement and that it wasn't necessary to first ask permission.
AND...
I also think that from a social dynamics point of view, it would have been more effective not to bring it up.
Why?
Think about the:
- second-order dynamics from a social status point of view after Bel opened the thread, and
- implications on John/Bel interpersonal relationships after bringing it up
Such as:
- Bel thread gave value to John, because that says "here is Bel, a cool guy, with a strong status in the forum, whose thread opening confirms that he's following John's journal" + "John's posts are so interesting that they warrant Bel's + the community attention".
That's a good boost for John. You want to encourage and give people more reasons to follow you and spun off your life events into new case studies, not fewer. - Bel's thread power-protected John: John originally admitted didn't do well, and Zathrian's (great) post gave strong feedback with a strong and potentially power-taking adjective ("autistic" or something like that).
Bel opening a thread indirectly power-protects John because it sub-communicates that, to deserve more attention, the event must have been difficult. That indirectly says "It's not John that bumbled a simple situation, it was the situation/topic that was difficult and I also would have struggled to handle it, so let's all learn more about it" - Bringing it up may lead to less input from Bel in the future, since he may feel like he needs to tread lightly around John's journal.
Enforcing boundaries sometimes mean that people will be more careful around you, and that can cost you in terms of getting good feedback and/or help.
That's a benefit of an "easygoing attitude": people feel more comfortable to talk, share, and give feedback.
In the spirit of full honesty, I've noticed that John may sometimes be a bit more "protective" of his journal/space than the average -not crazy high, but a bit more than the average-. That's not wrong or bad, but it's good to know because it may make it more difficult to vibe and get along well with more easy-going folks
Finally, I'd personally take care of how to place the "no big deal" part when giving feedback otherwise it may seem like using it for cover (ie, it feels off to say something like.: I'm telling you this, no big deal, but next time please...).
Often, it's best to place it in the beginning and/or the end, rather than in the middle.
Something like: hey, this was no big deal, but still I want to clarify it.... (...) ... Again, it was a small thing, but I still wanted to bring it up because I care to keep things as good as possible.
Let me know if you have any thoughts on this :).
Thank you, Kavalier.
And, thank you, Lucio.
I agree with all your points, and Kavalier's feedback is especially very helpful as to my side of the deal.
Since Lucio mentioned Zathrian's post and its tone, I want to add - to complete the dynamics from my point of view - that what I saw was:
- John addressing Zathrian's post in his journal without any push-back;
- and, at the same time, John's post here above formulating a "let me know beforehand" request because I opened a new thread.
Even not considering Zathrian's post and what transpired, I don’t see that as enforcing a boundary, but frankly going overboard.
To John's credit, I understand his answer here above backtracking and saying "ok my mistake" was probably also due to reading this post I wrote on his journal after Zathrian's.
Still, it's true that the feeling this all gives me is that I don't really want to continue to get involved in power struggles over small things.
Hello, guys!
Lucio, completely agreed. Bringing it up in "normal" social interactions would have felt off, and very few people would actually do it for this for precisely this reason. Also, bringing it up as "feedback", for learnings sake, is good (but tricky, as I explain below); but bringing it up as "enforcing boundaries" not so much.
I also think that to ask for "permission" is taking things a little bit too far, indeed.
So, in my original post, I think I should have included a feedback for John too.
Also, I agree, Bel is giving incredible value to John with his post, and John could have read the subtext. My original post also didn't highlight that. What I think could be improved in Bel's post is just the marketing of this value he's giving to John. Also, my feedback is more contextual: in a face to face interaction, Bel spontaneously saying "I’m very interested" right after Lucio and then adding his point of view without referencing his interlocutor's speech would still have run very smoothly. In text, though, especially in a long one, it's easy to misinterpret that as if Bel was only interested in what Lucio said, which is of course not true.
Overall, I think it's a tricky situation. If John hadn't brought that up, we wouldn't have this mini case study about how very small details may cause "bumps" in an interaction. And, when "bumps" happen frequently enough, there's potential for ruining a relationship in the long run without neither party knowing exactly what happened. So it's fair feedback, because everyone gains from it in the community, and without learning it, everybody would lose.
But, by bringing it up, John amplifies it, and I sincerely don't know how John could have addressed it smoothly. Perhaps by being equally attentive and acknowledging Bel's giving:
Bel, thank you so much for creating this thread! And thank you for showing interest in that interaction, man.
As a quick feedback, when you only reference Lucio and there were more people in the conversation, it has a potential for misunderstanding, because it might feel as if <tell what it is that you felt>. So, to avoid that, perhaps you...
I still don't know if the above would have helped. Just by addressing it, even nicely and even highlighting it as a feedback, it still subcommunicates that something bothered John and, as Lucio says might lead to less input from Bel in the future. But perhaps it would have affected the interaction only in the short term, and as soon as Bel realised the feedback was good and improved his other relationships, the interaction would get back to spontaneous.
Also happy to hear your thoughts :)
Edit: Bel, just saw your post. So there was more to the interaction I wasn't aware of, since I hadn't read the full exchange. When I give further feedback in the future, I'll try to get to know all the facts. Please feel free to disagree with the above. Also thank you for your note! Great to know it was helpful.
Great post, Kavalier!
Overall, I must say that I also should have been clearer: I think that the request for "letting one know in advance" shouldn't have been accepted by Bel and that flagging it here felt unnecessary (while also giving us all a great chance to explore the topic -yes, you said it, it's a conundrum: how to raise small stuff without looking thin-skinned? It's also a skill worth learning-).
And to me, the "no biggie" while also requesting for permission was misplaced and made it feel "not so straight".
So that's something I'd definitely want to look into.
However, Bel:
Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 12:46 pm
- John addressing Zathrian's post in his journal without any push-back;
- and, at the same time, John's post here above formulating a "let me know beforehand" request because I opened a new thread.
I disagree here.
If you mean to say that John was too lenient on the "more serious" Zathrian post and too overreactive over the "smaller thing" thread, I disagree because you can't really compare these two.
Zathrian's post was super direct and came off strong, but it was fair feedback to give.
Yes, he may have maybe power-protected more -but I'm not even too sure about it-, but it was a great post that was sorely missing.
And let me say that I was very glad to see that post.
And it's because any self-development community that wants to go to the next level truly needs the hard-hitting feedback.
The hard-hitting feedback is often the first thing you lose when people start getting to know each other since the priority becomes keeping a good vibe/friendship/alliance rather than giving the best feedback, no matter what.
Of course, the "harsh feedback" may not always apply and sometimes it may be totally wrong, but you still need it -and Zathrian's one definitely wasn't totally out of place-.
So, no, I think it may have been even more out of place to push back against Zathrian's feedback than it was to push back against creating a new thread from one's journal.
Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 12:46 pmI don't really want to continue to get involved in power struggles over small things.
Fair to feel that way, but power struggles are part and parcel of socialization.
As for the "small ones", true, but it's just what Kavalier said.
The small ones would be too small to bother or get surfaced in real life, but they still can undermine rapport and, over time, even destroy social capital -especially when one fails to understand the deeper dynamic, and repeats similar small social-faux-pas over time. Then it's death of friendships and alliances by thousands small faux-passes-.
So, in a way, you do the painful grind here, to avoid them in real life -just part of the learning and, often, an opportunity-.
I understand what you say, Lucio.
And I agree on the opportunity of doing the grind on the "small things", in fact I think that's one of the most important things I learned and am learning here.
At the same time, I guess what I wanted to say is: yes, I am always ready to self-reflect and consider all feedback. I embraced what Kavalier pointed out, and in the past I even solicited feedback on my mistakes when I sensed they were in play - and will continue to do so.
But, I also (continue to) have this feeling that the most important issue here is me being "too agreeable". Which so far made me so easier to push-back against, or social climb upon, compared to more disagreeable people.
So, for now, the path is also leading me more and more towards being "less agreeable".
