Feedbacks & clarifications

Quote from John Freeman on February 14, 2023, 8:13 pm

Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 12:46 pm

Thank you, Kavalier.

And, thank you, Lucio.

I agree with all your points, and Kavalier's feedback is especially very helpful as to my side of the deal.

Since Lucio mentioned Zathrian's post and its tone, I want to add - to complete the dynamics from my point of view - that what I saw was:

• John addressing Zathrian's post in his journal without any push-back;
• and, at the same time, John's post here above formulating a "let me know beforehand" request because I opened a new thread.

Even not considering Zathrian's post and what transpired, I don’t see that as enforcing a boundary, but frankly going overboard.

Alright, I'll be more careful in the future.

To John's credit, I understand his answer here above backtracking and saying "ok my mistake" was probably also due to reading this post I wrote on his journal after Zathrian's.

For clarification: "My mistake" only came from reading again Lucio's sentence and realizing that I totally misinterpreted it.

Still, it's true that the feeling this all gives me is that I don't really want to continue to get involved in power struggles over small things.

Yeah, I'm sorry man, not my intention, see my post above. For me the stake was addressing my fear of conflict and training my assertiveness. It was clumsy of me...

Quote from John Freeman on February 14, 2023, 8:23 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 14, 2023, 3:30 pm

Great post, Kavalier!

Overall, I must say that I also should have been clearer: I think that the request for "letting one know in advance" shouldn't have been accepted by Bel and that flagging it here felt unnecessary (while also giving us all a great chance to explore the topic -yes, you said it, it's a conundrum: how to raise small stuff without looking thin-skinned? It's also a skill worth learning-).

Yeah definitely it is challenging.

And to me, the "no biggie" while also requesting for permission was misplaced and made it feel "not so straight".

So that's something I'd definitely want to look into.

Definitely. It definitely sounds contradictory.

However, Bel:

Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 12:46 pm

• John addressing Zathrian's post in his journal without any push-back;
• and, at the same time, John's post here above formulating a "let me know beforehand" request because I opened a new thread.

I disagree here.

If you mean to say that John was too lenient on the "more serious" Zathrian post and too overreactive over the "smaller thing" thread, I disagree because you can't really compare these two.

Zathrian's post was super direct and came off strong, but it was fair feedback to give.

Yes, he may have maybe power-protected more -but I'm not even too sure about it-, but it was a great post that was sorely missing.

To me these these are totally separate events in my perception. In your case, Bel, I misinterpreted the whole situation from the start, so it was bound to go "sour". I reacted to a situation that was not the actual one. And even still as I said in my post above I should have taken more distance and see what you guys saw, which I did not.

And let me say that I was very glad to see that post.

And it's because any self-development community that wants to go to the next level truly needs the hard-hitting feedback.

The hard-hitting feedback is often the first thing you lose when people start getting to know each other since the priority becomes keeping a good vibe/friendship/alliance rather than giving the best feedback, no matter what.

I totally agree. What does not kill you makes you stronger. So this kind of feedback is very useful and needed in order to grow. Otherwise we don't get to have it as most people are afraid to give it.

Of course, the "harsh feedback" may not always apply and sometimes it may be totally wrong, but you still need it -and Zathrian's one definitely wasn't totally out of place-.

So, no, I think it may have been even more out of place to push back against Zathrian's feedback than it was to push back against creating a new thread from one's journal.

Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 12:46 pm

I don't really want to continue to get involved in power struggles over small things.

Fair to feel that way, but power struggles are part and parcel of socialization.

Yeah, to me it was not about power in the first place but it still is. To be assertive is about reclaiming one's own power. At least that's what I thought I was doing.

As for the "small ones", true, but it's just what Kavalier said.

The small ones would be too small to bother or get surfaced in real life, but they still can undermine rapport and, over time, even destroy social capital -especially when one fails to understand the deeper dynamic, and repeats similar small social-faux-pas over time. Then it's death of friendships and alliances by thousands small faux-passes-.

Yeah this is so true. It's in the small things that we destroy our social capital. I don't mean you Bel, I mean generally speaking. It's in the "not smiling" in the snide remark at a colleague that we create our social demise. Or to the contrary to the daily smile, the innocent small talk that we create allies. That's why I posted about how to say thanks. It's in these small daily details that the drops become rivers and the rivers become torrents. Either floating us upstream to social success or downstream to social exclusion.

So, in a way, you do the painful grind here, to avoid them in real life -just part of the learning and, often, an opportunity-.

I like this sentence a lot. Especially the end. It is an opportunity. I think the fact that we're exchanging about it shows that it is not as obvious at it might seem, at least not to me (of course).

Quote from John Freeman on February 14, 2023, 8:28 pm

Quote from Bel on February 14, 2023, 6:52 pm

I understand what you say, Lucio.

And I agree on the opportunity of doing the grind on the "small things", in fact I think that's one of the most important things I learned and am learning here.

At the same time, I guess what I wanted to say is: yes, I am always ready to self-reflect and consider all feedback. I embraced what Kavalier pointed out, and in the past I even solicited feedback on my mistakes when I sensed they were in play - and will continue to do so.

But, I also (continue to) have this feeling that the most important issue here is me being "too agreeable". Which so far made me so easier to push-back against, or social climb upon, compared to more disagreeable people.

To me you were not being too agreeable. The mistake comes from me. I spoke to you like I would to a friend. Telling you what I felt meant that I respected you in the sense that I wanted to tell you how I felt, even if misplaced.

So, for now, the path is also leading me more and more towards being "less agreeable".

As I said above, I don't think this was the issue. I thank you for everything you wrote lately. I'll be more careful with my communication. If I have a doubt about an interpretation or feel there was a slight towards me, I will ask a question rather than interpret. So I don't think you have to question yourself nor your behaviour in this matter.

Sorry guys for the many posts. I wanted to address every post of yours.

I learned another very important lesson and I'll be careful in when and how I'm being assertive and also to make sure I interpreted the situation correctly.

Off topic

Edit: I want to add that I'm happy to see that we can talk about this topic as rationally as can be. I think it's important to see these social dynamics as problems to solve. To detach from them and see it from above: "what did I do?" and "what happened?". It's easier to solve them in this way I think. The difference with other problems is that the problem is often inside of us (in this case: me). So it's more difficult to look at it without any emotion as we have to sculpt ourselves anew. I'm going a bit philosophic here but that's how I view self-development: our old (constructed) self dies in the process of changing our beliefs and behaviours. So there's a little bit (or a lot) of pain and sadness. There is a loss.

As Tom Bilyeu says: "we are both the marble and the sculptor. Herein lies the pain of creation."

Not smart alecing here, sharing with you my current thoughts about self-transformation, the road ahead.

/Off topic

Quote from Bel on February 15, 2023, 11:25 am

To John:

Thank you for your apology and your kind words John.

It's ok and it wasn't even needed, also because everyone here (including me) has his challenges and things to change.

And I'm learning lots thanks to you and interacting with you.

To Kavalier:

The "opening a thread from one's journal without enough recognition", as Lucio mentioned, was an issue that IMO could have been addressed with a slight comment:

Thank you Bel for finding interest in the topic Lucio and I started.

I assure you that I would have gotten the hint.

I will also add that my minimizing his involvement in the new thread derived also from not knowing if he would have appreciated his name and personal discussion to be in the thread.

So when faced with the choice, I chose to open the thread and let John decide his involvement in the discussion.

But for sure your solution, Kavalier, is best: it still leaves open his choice as to level of involvement, while showing recognition with a compliment.

EDIT: It's so effective that I think it could be made into a general technique:

Whenever factual recognition to another is not possible or uncertain, then -----> hint that it's his choice, and give verbal recognition.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 9, 2023, 6:59 pm

How to claim credit in the smoothest way possible

Ali's next-level smooth approach:

Quote from Ali Scarlett on April 9, 2023, 5:10 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 9, 2023, 11:36 am

Some edits largely based on Alex Hormozi's course:

• Bonuses: added more now + added the price value (Alex recommends the bonuses' price to exceed the course price)

Just realized (reading back to older posts in this thread) that we actually talked about the pricing in Bonuses before from Cialdini's work.

Cool to see the congruency across the work of two experts.

In brief, I now added the value of the bonuses after having gone through Alex's course.

HOWEVER...

Ali had already suggested so.

It's fair and good for Ali to remind that, because both one's expertise and fair credit are at stake (one may not care as much in the forum, but the premise we already move from here is that it's good to know how to do that in real life, and when it matters).

How can one remind others that he had already said something first, without risking to break some rapport, or come across as a bit defensive like the "I had told you that" move usually does?

Like Ali did:

• Avoid the "I told you that before" stock sentence, that can make come across as a bit too self-centered and also come across accusatory, as in "dumbass, you had that information already and sat on it for months, wasting the opportunity"
• Mention it with a power-protecting "we" frame, as in "we had already talked about it" even though it was him who proposed it, rather than "we" (the receiver most often knows the truth anyway)
• Put a positive spin to it, in this case, the "congruency of information between two different people" that shows it's probably the best way to go
• Bonus point, give credit to someone else: ie. "the two experts who agree", albeit at this point one could easily infer that Ali is at least as expert as the other  two

Quote from Ali Scarlett on April 11, 2023, 4:37 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 9, 2023, 6:59 pm

How to claim credit in the smoothest way possible

Ali's next-level smooth approach:

Quote from Ali Scarlett on April 9, 2023, 5:10 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 9, 2023, 11:36 am

Some edits largely based on Alex Hormozi's course:

• Bonuses: added more now + added the price value (Alex recommends the bonuses' price to exceed the course price)

Just realized (reading back to older posts in this thread) that we actually talked about the pricing in Bonuses before from Cialdini's work.

Cool to see the congruency across the work of two experts.

In brief, I now added the value of the bonuses after having gone through Alex's course.

HOWEVER...

Ali had already suggested so.

It's fair and good for Ali to remind that, because both one's expertise and fair credit are at stake (one may not care as much in the forum, but the premise we already move from here is that it's good to know how to do that in real life, and when it matters).

How can one remind others that he had already said something first, without risking to break some rapport, or come across as a bit defensive like the "I had told you that" move usually does?

Like Ali did:

• Avoid the "I told you that before" stock sentence, that can make come across as a bit too self-centered and also come across accusatory, as in "dumbass, you had that information already and sat on it for months, wasting the opportunity"
• Mention it with a power-protecting "we" frame, as in "we had already talked about it" even though it was him who proposed it, rather than "we" (the receiver most often knows the truth anyway)
• Put a positive spin to it, in this case, the "congruency of information between two different people" that shows it's probably the best way to go
• Bonus point, give credit to someone else: ie. "the two experts who agree", albeit at this point one could easily infer that Ali is at least as expert as the other  two

Thank you for the feedback and kind words, Lucio!

A couple more thoughts if you or anyone else would like to weigh in:

• Give more value first, then claim credit: a post giving feedback on the sales page came first. If the credit-claiming post had come first, it can come across like one is rushing to claim credit that wasn't (but maybe should've been) given. (At the same time, putting the post claiming credit last can make it stick out more due to the recency effect. But, since it was done smoothly, it's in the green and I think the better option here.)
• Link to one of the receiver's (in this case, Lucio's) posts: rather than linking to the post where you shared the idea that you want credit for in order to avoid making it overly obvious what you're doing.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 11, 2023, 7:26 pm

Right, nice Ali!

Quote from Ali Scarlett on April 25, 2023, 5:52 am

A quick request for feedback if anyone has a couple of minutes:

Writing this post I felt like I was challenging Lucio's definition and I'm not sure I did enough power protecting.

Does anyone else feel the same reading my post?

Quote from John Freeman on April 25, 2023, 5:21 pm

Hello Ali,

I think your post is very valuable and I think the way you wrote it was respectful.