Former Community – We Moved

🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.

ForumResources: Researches, Studies, TheoriesLearningFeedbacks & clarifications

Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Feedbacks & clarifications

#641 · August 1, 2023, 9:48 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 1, 2023, 9:48 am
Hello DGX37,
You say that your goal for writing here, I quote, "more so than feeling deeply insulted", is...
That's basically saying that you do still feel (deeply?) insulted.
Frankly, if you, I quote again "understand that you (I, Lucio) didn't mean me", I don't see the point of even mentioning the possibility of feeling deeply insulted.
That opens a thread about potentially insulting you -or other forum members- which, in my opinion, has no reason to even exist.
A thread that even mentions the possibility of me insulting you -or anyone else in the forum- is a thread that I refuse to even engage.
What is worthy of addressing instead is that, to me, that says that you still feel slighted by that.
That's my priority to address and what I'll do first. (All the rest, I feel, is just ancillary to that main issue so I'll touch it more briefly).
On that, I don't think I have much more to add on top of what I said there (quoting only the most relevant part):
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 31, 2023, 6:25 pm
Still, if you think of yourself as one, that's perfectly valid and I acknowledge my message may have come across as an attack / offensive / insulting.
My bad, that wans't my intention (...)
So, if it wasn't already obvious from our past interactions, I actually think you're an awesome guy, smart, empowered, going places, and even an eagle (in the making, just like we all work in progress).
You say that me not defining "hyper-relativist" and going on discussing the topics of that thread is what left you disempowered.
I disagree with that.
I think instead that the most relevant definition to clear the air between you and I is also what was already said there.
Such as:
"an hyper-relativist is someone who is not you". (After that, how I define or not define "hyper-relativist" may be relevant to the topic, but not to how you feel about this).
That means that when I used strong words to define "hyper-relativist", I never meant it to include you.
And if you still feel included into "hyper relativist", I say there: my bad, I'd have been more careful with my words.
That basically says:
"I respect you to the point that if I feel you're in a certain category, I'll be less direct to voice my disagreement than I'd otherwise be just to show respect and consideration for you".
I don't think there's much more one can say or do to re-empower someone.
Now a few more notes

Quote from DGX37 on August 1, 2023, 7:39 am
More so than feeling deeply insulted, I decided to use this word to emphasize that I don't find making fun of other people opinions cool.
(...)
Also in truth, when someone is making fun of other people's ideas ( even if I don't agree with those ideas myself ), I don't find it cool, because I know everyone can get things wrong, I could very well be that person in different circumstances, I don't see it as constructive and helpful in long term.
I find this to be incorrect, and a poorer frame for me than what actually happened.
Albeit that may partially be up to interpretation, I don't find I made fun of anyone.
I clearly used the word "naive idiot" instead.
That's not making fun.
You may call that disrespectful, aggressive, demeaning, or whatever.
But it's not "making fun".
And I care to specify because "making fun" aligns more with a covert, derisive, and passive-aggressive approach, which I don't think was the case at all.
It was instead very clear and direct.
Quote from DGX37 on August 1, 2023, 7:39 am
First because it may be that someone actually agree with them and is a forum user ( which can make him come as defensive or make him distanced, just like you said once "you create an out-group with people that are butt of your jokes" ) or even to save face in situations when someone is wrong, for example I could be wrong in this scenario, and if I laughed at people that think otherwise and were actually right, that makes me only worse off.
Sure it's possible that someone may agree with someone else that I think is a "naive idiot" (or a "soyboy", or anything else).
And I think that's totally fine.
Because what would the alternative be then, not voicing one's own thoughts?
That's not something I'm interested in doing.
And it's not something I'd ever expect or encourage anyone else to do.
But it's probably not even something you're suggesting.
Probably what you meant is:
Lucio, stop being a dick toward those you disagree with because by reflection you're also being a dick towards those who like or agree with those third parties.
Instead, please voice your opinions in a way that's less aggressive and demeaning, so that you also avoid disempowering and alienating other forum users.
And, in that case, I'd generally agree with that.
I'd especially agree when those forum members are on that same topic and hence the association with the third parties and the "attack" on the third parties can feel a lot more personal -which, I think, is the true crux of the issue here: if my message had been on a thread where you hadn't posted, you probably would have never felt it was disempowering towards you-.
Otherwise, at a general level, I have the right to share a "stronger-than-usual" opinion when that reflects what I truly think.
In this specific case, I sometimes felt that the person object of my example was talking like a naive idiot.
I confirm that.
If that felt offensive to someone else, that sucks.
And it sucks especially if I think that the person who seems to have taken it as a personal slight is a cool guy.
And still... At a general level, I don't need to justfiy, explain, or apologize for sharing strong opinions I may have.

Hello DGX37,

You say that your goal for writing here, I quote, "more so than feeling deeply insulted", is...

That's basically saying that you do still feel (deeply?) insulted.

Frankly, if you, I quote again "understand that you (I, Lucio) didn't mean me", I don't see the point of even mentioning the possibility of feeling deeply insulted.

That opens a thread about potentially insulting you -or other forum members- which, in my opinion, has no reason to even exist.

A thread that even mentions the possibility of me insulting you -or anyone else in the forum- is a thread that I refuse to even engage.

What is worthy of addressing instead is that, to me, that says that you still feel slighted by that.

That's my priority to address and what I'll do first. (All the rest, I feel, is just ancillary to that main issue so I'll touch it more briefly).

On that, I don't think I have much more to add on top of what I said there (quoting only the most relevant part):

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 31, 2023, 6:25 pm
Still, if you think of yourself as one, that's perfectly valid and I acknowledge my message may have come across as an attack / offensive / insulting.
My bad, that wans't my intention (...)
So, if it wasn't already obvious from our past interactions, I actually think you're an awesome guy, smart, empowered, going places, and even an eagle (in the making, just like we all work in progress).

You say that me not defining "hyper-relativist" and going on discussing the topics of that thread is what left you disempowered.

I disagree with that.

I think instead that the most relevant definition to clear the air between you and I is also what was already said there.

Such as:

"an hyper-relativist is someone who is not you". (After that, how I define or not define "hyper-relativist" may be relevant to the topic, but not to how you feel about this).

That means that when I used strong words to define "hyper-relativist", I never meant it to include you.

And if you still feel included into "hyper relativist", I say there: my bad, I'd have been more careful with my words.

That basically says:

"I respect you to the point that if I feel you're in a certain category, I'll be less direct to voice my disagreement than I'd otherwise be just to show respect and consideration for you".

I don't think there's much more one can say or do to re-empower someone.

Now a few more notes

Quote from DGX37 on August 1, 2023, 7:39 am
More so than feeling deeply insulted, I decided to use this word to emphasize that I don't find making fun of other people opinions cool.
(...)
Also in truth, when someone is making fun of other people's ideas ( even if I don't agree with those ideas myself ), I don't find it cool, because I know everyone can get things wrong, I could very well be that person in different circumstances, I don't see it as constructive and helpful in long term.

I find this to be incorrect, and a poorer frame for me than what actually happened.

Albeit that may partially be up to interpretation, I don't find I made fun of anyone.

I clearly used the word "naive idiot" instead.

That's not making fun.

You may call that disrespectful, aggressive, demeaning, or whatever.

But it's not "making fun".

And I care to specify because "making fun" aligns more with a covert, derisive, and passive-aggressive approach, which I don't think was the case at all.

It was instead very clear and direct.

Quote from DGX37 on August 1, 2023, 7:39 am
First because it may be that someone actually agree with them and is a forum user ( which can make him come as defensive or make him distanced, just like you said once "you create an out-group with people that are butt of your jokes" ) or even to save face in situations when someone is wrong, for example I could be wrong in this scenario, and if I laughed at people that think otherwise and were actually right, that makes me only worse off.

Sure it's possible that someone may agree with someone else that I think is a "naive idiot" (or a "soyboy", or anything else).

And I think that's totally fine.

Because what would the alternative be then, not voicing one's own thoughts?

That's not something I'm interested in doing.
And it's not something I'd ever expect or encourage anyone else to do.

But it's probably not even something you're suggesting.

Probably what you meant is:

Lucio, stop being a dick toward those you disagree with because by reflection you're also being a dick towards those who like or agree with those third parties.
Instead, please voice your opinions in a way that's less aggressive and demeaning, so that you also avoid disempowering and alienating other forum users.

And, in that case, I'd generally agree with that.

I'd especially agree when those forum members are on that same topic and hence the association with the third parties and the "attack" on the third parties can feel a lot more personal -which, I think, is the true crux of the issue here: if my message had been on a thread where you hadn't posted, you probably would have never felt it was disempowering towards you-.

Otherwise, at a general level, I have the right to share a "stronger-than-usual" opinion when that reflects what I truly think.

In this specific case, I sometimes felt that the person object of my example was talking like a naive idiot.

I confirm that.

If that felt offensive to someone else, that sucks.
And it sucks especially if I think that the person who seems to have taken it as a personal slight is a cool guy.

And still... At a general level, I don't need to justfiy, explain, or apologize for sharing strong opinions I may have.

John Freeman, Mats G and Roberto have reacted to this post.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#642 · August 1, 2023, 9:53 am

P.S.:

As usual, if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on this, please do share (or we'll miss a potential learning opportunity).

Including if you thought that my original message was "too strong", if it did feel like it was directed to DGX37, if my apology/explanation wasn't re-empowering enough (or if people in general may be taking things too personally).

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#643 · August 1, 2023, 11:06 am

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 11:06 am
Hello DGX37 and Lucio,
I do have an opinion on that topic. I know DGX37 have not answered yet which I would have preferred (to avoid the possible feeling of 2 vs 1 which I don't like at all) but I have to go to the gym so I'll write quick here.
First, I want to say props to DGX37 for admitting that it still hurt you. I think it's important to be honest with our feelings. I don't mean in any way or shape or form that it makes you weak. As it's sometimes our fear and we don't admit it hurt us. It does take courage to admit it. So I hope it's clear and I'm happy to clarify. To summarize: I admire your courage to speak out. And generally that helps us get to the bottom of things inside of us.
Regarding your answer, Lucio: I think your messages have both the merit to be clear and honest. That being said I can understand why DGX37 you felt like hyper-relativists were made fun of. To me when I read that it brought an inner smile. So that's the effect it had on me. So I could say I found it "funny" myself. Now, reading your message I can see the distinction and I feel it's totally clear and fair as a distinction. So I think the frame of direct and strong is more accurate in this situation than "making fun". There was no joke, nor humour intended so it was not "making fun" in this sense.
Was it disrespectful to this group? I think it was in the sense of taking status from them (as in value/importance). The truth is that no one likes all the groups so in this sense it's a honest opinion. I don't think the wording was too strong. Maybe I'm biased here. Not because it fits me but because it can be read as an exaggeration to highlight that the reasoning behind the opinion of this group does not make sense (which is another opinion) to you. So in a sense it reinforces the argument that the opinion of this group is not a very relevant one for you Lucio. So in terms of frame it's fair. Using the word "idiots" did frame them as out-group I think. So it was clear to me in the texts that no one here belonged to this group. That you were talking about others and not DGX37.
About saying that one understand that the other did not mean it and still feel insulted is not coherent I agree. When someone says something that offends me and apologizes afterwards if I say: "It's all good" and smile. It also means that emotionally I let go of it. When I did/do not it meant/ means I was holding a grudge and that it was not really "good" after all.
Lucio, I think your apology message in the original thread was quite clear, rapport-building, vulnerable and an olive branch. You also opened the possibility to write here to further explain and repair the relationship. So I think it was appropriate and collaborative.
How I view this (you know me by now) generally speaking: as a self-development opportunity. To me it's the topic of "taking something personally"
"someone is making fun of other people's ideas".
How I view it in real life is that in life if someone makes fun of your ideas DGX37, there is the risk of feeling hurt and defending. So the people who do not have your best interests in mind now know: "oh oh this guy does not like it". So it makes you vulnerable to this kind of attack (generally speaking when someone's making fun of your ideas/opinions not Lucio here).
So to me these kind of events on the forum or in real life are opportunities to think: "why do I feel like that?" and get to the bottom of it. For you. Not for Lucio not for me not for anyone else. How I view it and you might disagree is that it's an opportunity to heal something and/or to remove a button. That's how I view it: a learning opportunity. The communication between you and Lucio is one thing. You guys will resolve it anyway. To me the most important thing is the introspection following feeling hurt. Whatever you come up with will help you in future interactions. I know you did not request any advice so feel free to ignore it. That's my general stance on things anyway: "what can I learn from this?". And in my opinion not taking things personally is a skill that is worth its weight in peanuts (as we say in French).
What I think is that it's totally ok to make fun of people's opinions and ideas. They're just opinions and ideas. They're not us and they're definitely not our identity. That Lucio wrote the "The making of the Ubermensch" or "Eagle" or even "High-quality man" people could make fun of it. And it's ok who cares? People can make fun of our ideas and opinions. To me it's totally fine. Now making fun of us is a different thing. If someone says: "one must be an idiot to think like that" then they're implying your an idiot and defending that it's fine. If they think this is an idiotic idea I would just ask why they think like that. They have the right to think an idea is idiotic. As long as I don't associate with the idea I don't take it personally. There are many ideas that I think are idiotic and that people around the World have.
It does not make me a bad person and it does not mean I think they're idiots. However one risk becoming an idiot if one identifies with an idiotic idea or any idea and is not ready to look at it for what it is that is examine it: "what is this idea I have anyway?" (that is for all of us including me). That is why I don't identify with the left nor the right. It's way too dangerous intellectually. So that means I have to associate with all the stupid ideas that the left or the right has? Nope no thank you. I try to find what is true and what I find is always in flux. As Mark Manson says: "we're wrong about everything". And it's ok. However, we have to live so we have to use transient truths. That is the truth that is practical and makes sense now to us. Nobody can know the absolute truth. So most of the things we think are opinions really. And they might and will change. So being ok with it is helpful I think. An idea good for us if it's useful/value-adding to us. If it is then who cares if people make fun of it.
As I said: when we talk about beliefs and values it can be quite emotional since it becomes about our identity. So I think it's more useful in general in self-development not to identify with our beliefs in values. That is: "this is what I value and believes in and maybe I'm wrong or maybe tomorrow it will be different". So it gives us the fluidity not to be attached to our values and beliefs and therefore not to be vulnerable when we feel they are being attacked.
If someone says to me: "people who believe in spirituality are idiots". I will ask them: "why do you think that?" then they will explain so I understand better their ideas and I thank them for explaining. Now I understand better, I have more intel and it does not change my life a bit. I won't change their mind through conversation, examples or whatever anyway. I may not feel as close to them as before and it's ok.
I know I wrote way too much. Lots of opinions of mine in it as well. So more opportunities of disagreement. Sorry if that's the case not my intention. I did my best to express my view as there are many threads in there so contradictions might arise in my writing.
In Summary: the communication part you guys will solve it and I would focus on the self-development opportunity. I hope I'm not making 2 enemies in 1 post :D (I'm being cheeky here being the 3rd party. You will notice I did my best to talk directly to each of you using "you" to avoid being a 3rd party talking in 3rd person "he" to avoid take any intermediary role which would be a power move but have as much as possible an outside observer role and therefore a 1-to-1 communication and avoid the 1 to 2 communication: me addressing you as a group). In the end it was not quick...

Hello DGX37 and Lucio,

I do have an opinion on that topic. I know DGX37 have not answered yet which I would have preferred (to avoid the possible feeling of 2 vs 1 which I don't like at all) but I have to go to the gym so I'll write quick here.

First, I want to say props to DGX37 for admitting that it still hurt you. I think it's important to be honest with our feelings. I don't mean in any way or shape or form that it makes you weak. As it's sometimes our fear and we don't admit it hurt us. It does take courage to admit it. So I hope it's clear and I'm happy to clarify. To summarize: I admire your courage to speak out. And generally that helps us get to the bottom of things inside of us.

Regarding your answer, Lucio: I think your messages have both the merit to be clear and honest. That being said I can understand why DGX37 you felt like hyper-relativists were made fun of. To me when I read that it brought an inner smile. So that's the effect it had on me. So I could say I found it "funny" myself. Now, reading your message I can see the distinction and I feel it's totally clear and fair as a distinction. So I think the frame of direct and strong is more accurate in this situation than "making fun". There was no joke, nor humour intended so it was not "making fun" in this sense.

Was it disrespectful to this group? I think it was in the sense of taking status from them (as in value/importance). The truth is that no one likes all the groups so in this sense it's a honest opinion. I don't think the wording was too strong. Maybe I'm biased here. Not because it fits me but because it can be read as an exaggeration to highlight that the reasoning behind the opinion of this group does not make sense (which is another opinion) to you. So in a sense it reinforces the argument that the opinion of this group is not a very relevant one for you Lucio. So in terms of frame it's fair. Using the word "idiots" did frame them as out-group I think. So it was clear to me in the texts that no one here belonged to this group. That you were talking about others and not DGX37.

About saying that one understand that the other did not mean it and still feel insulted is not coherent I agree. When someone says something that offends me and apologizes afterwards if I say: "It's all good" and smile. It also means that emotionally I let go of it. When I did/do not it meant/ means I was holding a grudge and that it was not really "good" after all.

Lucio, I think your apology message in the original thread was quite clear, rapport-building, vulnerable and an olive branch. You also opened the possibility to write here to further explain and repair the relationship. So I think it was appropriate and collaborative.

How I view this (you know me by now) generally speaking: as a self-development opportunity. To me it's the topic of "taking something personally"

"someone is making fun of other people's ideas".

How I view it in real life is that in life if someone makes fun of your ideas DGX37, there is the risk of feeling hurt and defending. So the people who do not have your best interests in mind now know: "oh oh this guy does not like it". So it makes you vulnerable to this kind of attack (generally speaking when someone's making fun of your ideas/opinions not Lucio here).

So to me these kind of events on the forum or in real life are opportunities to think: "why do I feel like that?" and get to the bottom of it. For you. Not for Lucio not for me not for anyone else. How I view it and you might disagree is that it's an opportunity to heal something and/or to remove a button. That's how I view it: a learning opportunity. The communication between you and Lucio is one thing. You guys will resolve it anyway. To me the most important thing is the introspection following feeling hurt. Whatever you come up with will help you in future interactions. I know you did not request any advice so feel free to ignore it. That's my general stance on things anyway: "what can I learn from this?". And in my opinion not taking things personally is a skill that is worth its weight in peanuts (as we say in French).

What I think is that it's totally ok to make fun of people's opinions and ideas. They're just opinions and ideas. They're not us and they're definitely not our identity. That Lucio wrote the "The making of the Ubermensch" or "Eagle" or even "High-quality man" people could make fun of it. And it's ok who cares? People can make fun of our ideas and opinions. To me it's totally fine. Now making fun of us is a different thing. If someone says: "one must be an idiot to think like that" then they're implying your an idiot and defending that it's fine. If they think this is an idiotic idea I would just ask why they think like that. They have the right to think an idea is idiotic. As long as I don't associate with the idea I don't take it personally. There are many ideas that I think are idiotic and that people around the World have.

It does not make me a bad person and it does not mean I think they're idiots. However one risk becoming an idiot if one identifies with an idiotic idea or any idea and is not ready to look at it for what it is that is examine it: "what is this idea I have anyway?" (that is for all of us including me). That is why I don't identify with the left nor the right. It's way too dangerous intellectually. So that means I have to associate with all the stupid ideas that the left or the right has? Nope no thank you. I try to find what is true and what I find is always in flux. As Mark Manson says: "we're wrong about everything". And it's ok. However, we have to live so we have to use transient truths. That is the truth that is practical and makes sense now to us. Nobody can know the absolute truth. So most of the things we think are opinions really. And they might and will change. So being ok with it is helpful I think. An idea good for us if it's useful/value-adding to us. If it is then who cares if people make fun of it.

As I said: when we talk about beliefs and values it can be quite emotional since it becomes about our identity. So I think it's more useful in general in self-development not to identify with our beliefs in values. That is: "this is what I value and believes in and maybe I'm wrong or maybe tomorrow it will be different". So it gives us the fluidity not to be attached to our values and beliefs and therefore not to be vulnerable when we feel they are being attacked.

If someone says to me: "people who believe in spirituality are idiots". I will ask them: "why do you think that?" then they will explain so I understand better their ideas and I thank them for explaining. Now I understand better, I have more intel and it does not change my life a bit. I won't change their mind through conversation, examples or whatever anyway. I may not feel as close to them as before and it's ok.

I know I wrote way too much. Lots of opinions of mine in it as well. So more opportunities of disagreement. Sorry if that's the case not my intention. I did my best to express my view as there are many threads in there so contradictions might arise in my writing.

In Summary: the communication part you guys will solve it and I would focus on the self-development opportunity. I hope I'm not making 2 enemies in 1 post :D (I'm being cheeky here being the 3rd party. You will notice I did my best to talk directly to each of you using "you" to avoid being a 3rd party talking in 3rd person "he" to avoid take any intermediary role which would be a power move but have as much as possible an outside observer role and therefore a 1-to-1 communication and avoid the 1 to 2 communication: me addressing you as a group). In the end it was not quick...

Lucio Buffalmano, Mats G and Roberto have reacted to this post.

#644 · August 1, 2023, 11:38 am

@lucio: as you know I’m all for free speech and self-expression. However after this exchange I think it’s reasonable to consider avoid words such as “idiot” on the forum. It can trigger unwanted escalation. I don’t know what you think about that.

Lucio Buffalmano and Gguwad have reacted to this post.

#645 · August 1, 2023, 4:48 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 1, 2023, 9:48 am
Hello DGX37,
You say that your goal for writing here, I quote, "more so than feeling deeply insulted", is...
That's basically saying that you do still feel (deeply?) insulted.

Well, that's why it's true that conversations like this shouldn't be done in message format, what I meant is that I am not deeply insulted, that I instead want to set things straight and show I hold no resentment. Really frustrating how big the misunderstanding is.

#646 · August 1, 2023, 5:15 pm

Quote from Gguwad on August 1, 2023, 5:15 pm
Now returning to my thread here
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 1, 2023, 9:48 am
You say that me not defining "hyper-relativist" and going on discussing the topics of that thread is what left you disempowered.
I disagree with that.
Not defining hyper-relativist is not a problem.
It's sequence of:
1. Giving opinions contrary to my own
2. Then bringing up Hyper-relativist ( without further definition, which makes it look like those that the not agreeing with opinions before makes you included in this group ).
3. Then making fun of them, which I see in this sentence "It's common among modern virtue-signalers, wokists, lefists and, albeit we generally don't use that terminology here... "modern soyboys" :).". So, smily face, grouping those behaviours with a lot of non respected groups on this forum and giving them a funny name of "modern soyboys".
And I understand you didn't try to include me in this group, because I know you as I can know fellow forum user, and I made this thread specifically so you know that the way you made your post, you are making fun of people with different opinion, and how to avoid that in the future.
Additionally, as I know it was made to make fun of extremists, I made a point that we should not make fun even of them, well explained here:
Lucio, stop being a dick toward those you disagree with because by reflection you're also being a dick towards those who like or agree with those third parties.
Instead, please voice your opinions in a way that's less aggressive and demeaning, so that you also avoid disempowering and alienating other forum users.
Not the words I would use but overall that's the point.
But it's not "making fun".
I disagree, making fun in one of at least mine definitions is to ridicule something as stupid, which you did. It may be your true opinion, what you truly feel about those people, I don't care, it's still making fun of them.
I divided the two posts because the post before is not up to discussion, in whatever way I fucked up trying to share my opinion, I don't hold any resentment for what happened. This post though is to discuss what I meant and what behaviour I dislike, and if it's fair or not, that's up for discussion.

Now returning to my thread here

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 1, 2023, 9:48 am
You say that me not defining "hyper-relativist" and going on discussing the topics of that thread is what left you disempowered.
I disagree with that.

Not defining hyper-relativist is not a problem.

It's sequence of:
1. Giving opinions contrary to my own
2. Then bringing up Hyper-relativist ( without further definition, which makes it look like those that the not agreeing with opinions before makes you included in this group ).
3. Then making fun of them, which I see in this sentence "It's common among modern virtue-signalers, wokists, lefists and, albeit we generally don't use that terminology here... "modern soyboys" :).". So, smily face, grouping those behaviours with a lot of non respected groups on this forum and giving them a funny name of "modern soyboys".

And I understand you didn't try to include me in this group, because I know you as I can know fellow forum user, and I made this thread specifically so you know that the way you made your post, you are making fun of people with different opinion, and how to avoid that in the future.
Additionally, as I know it was made to make fun of extremists, I made a point that we should not make fun even of them, well explained here:

Lucio, stop being a dick toward those you disagree with because by reflection you're also being a dick towards those who like or agree with those third parties.
Instead, please voice your opinions in a way that's less aggressive and demeaning, so that you also avoid disempowering and alienating other forum users.

Not the words I would use but overall that's the point.

But it's not "making fun".

I disagree, making fun in one of at least mine definitions is to ridicule something as stupid, which you did. It may be your true opinion, what you truly feel about those people, I don't care, it's still making fun of them.

I divided the two posts because the post before is not up to discussion, in whatever way I fucked up trying to share my opinion, I don't hold any resentment for what happened. This post though is to discuss what I meant and what behaviour I dislike, and if it's fair or not, that's up for discussion.

#647 · August 1, 2023, 5:25 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 11:06 am
I do have an opinion on that topic. I know DGX37 have not answered yet which I would have preferred (to avoid the possible feeling of 2 vs 1 which I don't like at all) but I have to go to the gym so I'll write quick here.

Didn't have time so I here first, conversation is good and I will return to it for sure, if you are still up to it.

I find it hard to respond to your post because I don't feel it applies to me. But I understand that you are a kind person and want only good with what you are writing so know that I am not feeling resentment nor to you nor to Lucio.
Also I don't want to thread expand on misunderstanding.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

#648 · August 1, 2023, 5:38 pm

All good on my side as well man.

FYI in case you did not know it:

I am not feeling resentment nor to you nor to Lucio.

This is a power move. It frames yourself as magnanimous and forgiving us. So it frames you above us. As when somebody feels angry it's because they've been slighted. Indeed no harm was done on either side.

Plus it sets an adversarial frame which was not even there in the first place.

And to me this is babying:

But I understand that you are a kind person and want only good with what you are writing

It frames me as a harmless dove.

#649 · August 1, 2023, 5:50 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 5:38 pm
This is a power move. It frames yourself as magnanimous and forgiving us. So it frames you above us. As when somebody feels angry it's because they've been slighted. Indeed no harm was done on either side.

Very glad that you pointed it out so there's no more misunderstandings. What I want to say is, I feel no resentment towards you because there was no resentment in the first place, I am not forgiving anyone, I was not slighted and I know it, didn't took it personally from the get go.

I understand that after such a situation this looks like forgiving but it's not, I guess you see it like that because you don't believe me that I wasn't slighted personally or because I didn't clarify it well enough.

Truthfully I don't know how to clarify it better, there is truly nothing wrong with this situation on a personal level.

What I think brought the misunderstanding was "I can't fail to see it as an insult". Because I thought it looks like it's an insult even thought I know it's not an insult towards me. So I wrote this post so Lucio can clarify that indeed it was not an insult towards me, which he did, that's how I saw it, so I decided to clarify that the way Lucio wrote the previous message can create misunderstandings here, in this thread. But personally I understood it's not directed towards me so I wasn't angry, let alone forgiving.

#650 · August 1, 2023, 5:52 pm

Mmmh I feel like we had a similar situation here before, right Lucio? (rethorical question)

@DGX37: thanks for explaining more.

Alright to avoid any more misunderstanding I'm getting out of the situation to avoid scrambling the communication.

I'll come back later to self-criticize on my long post above.

Happy to answer anything anytime in between.

Gguwad has reacted to this post.