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#651 · August 1, 2023, 6:17 pm

All cool, I don't think there's much more to add at this point.

Only things on my side are:

Thank you John for the feedback
Glad there wasn't any personal resentment and no feeling of having been insulted
From my side, it felt like there was some (possible feedback for DGX37 on how to potentially phrase things going forward to avoid such a misunderstanding, up to you whether to take that feedback, or to think that it was just me or whoever else who got it wrong)
But if you confirm there is none, or at least none now, then great, we're clear
I agree and acknowledge that indeed part of my message can be defined as derisive, so you're right DGX37 and I was wrong in saying there wasn't any of that. My bad (maybe next time good idea for me to re-read the whole thing instead of stopping at the catchier part of "naive idiots" and jumping to wrong conclusions)
I disagree that it's not OK to talk the way I did , even including the "derisive" part. I think it may not be "nice", but it's fine for me (many of TPM's reviews here have similar tone. Many people don't like it and especially not the authors. It's also an important con for TPM losing us links and opportunities. On the other hand, people who want straight reviews know they can find them here)
... But of course that's not to say that "anything goes". Funny enough, we're discussing a similar phenomenon to that thread: there are shades of grey, but those shades of grey aren't infinitely elastic and one can certainly go overboard -I just don't think that was the case in that thread-
If anyone disagrees with my future tone, always welcome to flag it and clarify
If anyone has anything to add or give us feedback on, please do :)

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#652 · August 1, 2023, 6:46 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 1, 2023, 6:17 pm
All cool, I don't think there's much more to add at this point.
From my side, it felt like there was some (possible feedback for DGX37 on how to potentially phrase things going forward to avoid such a misunderstanding, up to you whether to take that feedback, or to think that it was just me or whoever else who got it wrong)
But if you confirm there is none, or at least none now, then great, we're clear

I am happy to confirm there is no resentment. I also acknowledge that I am not the best with words, there were many situations in the past when a person misunderstood what I said and I had to clarify as I framed it as completely different from what I really felt. I would say it comes to me not caring much to use appropriate words, I acknowledge the misunderstanding is in big part on my side.

And I would be happy to get feedback on how to address things like that in the future.

I pretty much agree on all of later points, I understand that you took my feedback the way I intended and gave your opinion on it, which I can respect, we could talk about it more, but truthfully I want to leave some fresh air as this situation felt intense to me.

To best honest I feel kind of hopeless on how I handled the communication and even now I have doubts if this message doesn't contain power moves I don't see which will cause further escalation. I hope it doesn't.

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#653 · August 1, 2023, 6:56 pm

This message came crystal clear, DGX37 :).

Most of your messages are pretty clear, actually.

As for what may have contributed to create some misunderstanding, don't wanna promise anyting, but I'll see if I can manage t ojot down something later on (always too many things to do of course)

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#654 · August 1, 2023, 7:41 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 7:41 pm
Alright, my bad I thought it resembled a former situation. I take it back. It's not.
I'm glad it's all behind us now.
I also got caught in the past in misunderstandings on the forum so I empathize it is quite confusing and intense as one does not know how to get out of it.
If in any shape of form I had any responsibility in this conflict, please guys let me know. Whether it's the topic or the way I spoke. I'm working on untangling unconscious behavioural patterns so that would be helpful for me.
I'm going to address my previous message and self-criticize.
Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 11:06 am
Hello DGX37 and Lucio,
First, I want to say props to DGX37 for admitting that it still hurt you. I think it's important to be honest with our feelings. I don't mean in any way or shape or form that it makes you weak. As it's sometimes our fear and we don't admit it hurt us. It does take courage to admit it. So I hope it's clear and I'm happy to clarify. To summarize: I admire your courage to speak out. And generally that helps us get to the bottom of things inside of us.
This falls down as it was a misunderstanding: you let it go emotionally.
Regarding your answer, Lucio: I think your messages have both the merit to be clear and honest. That being said I can understand why DGX37 you felt like hyper-relativists were made fun of. To me when I read that it brought an inner smile. So that's the effect it had on me. So I could say I found it "funny" myself. Now, reading your message I can see the distinction and I feel it's totally clear and fair as a distinction. So I think the frame of direct and strong is more accurate in this situation than "making fun". There was no joke, nor humour intended so it was not "making fun" in this sense.
This was solved as you guys already talked about it.
Was it disrespectful to this group? I think it was in the sense of taking status from them (as in value/importance). The truth is that no one likes all the groups so in this sense it's a honest opinion. I don't think the wording was too strong. Maybe I'm biased here. Not because it fits me but because it can be read as an exaggeration to highlight that the reasoning behind the opinion of this group does not make sense (which is another opinion) to you. So in a sense it reinforces the argument that the opinion of this group is not a very relevant one for you Lucio. So in terms of frame it's fair. Using the word "idiots" did frame them as out-group I think. So it was clear to me in the texts that no one here belonged to this group. That you were talking about others and not DGX37.
No change here. You guys talked about it as well.
About saying that one understand that the other did not mean it and still feel insulted is not coherent I agree. When someone says something that offends me and apologizes afterwards if I say: "It's all good" and smile. It also means that emotionally I let go of it. When I did/do not it meant/ means I was holding a grudge and that it was not really "good" after all.
This also was solved as it was a misundersanding.
Lucio, I think your apology message in the original thread was quite clear, rapport-building, vulnerable and an olive branch. You also opened the possibility to write here to further explain and repair the relationship. So I think it was appropriate and collaborative.
No change here.
How I view this (you know me by now) generally speaking: as a self-development opportunity. To me it's the topic of "taking something personally"
"someone is making fun of other people's ideas".
How I view it in real life is that in life if someone makes fun of your ideas DGX37, there is the risk of feeling hurt and defending. So the people who do not have your best interests in mind now know: "oh oh this guy does not like it". So it makes you vulnerable to this kind of attack (generally speaking when someone's making fun of your ideas/opinions not Lucio here).
So to me these kind of events on the forum or in real life are opportunities to think: "why do I feel like that?" and get to the bottom of it. For you. Not for Lucio not for me not for anyone else. How I view it and you might disagree is that it's an opportunity to heal something and/or to remove a button. That's how I view it: a learning opportunity. The communication between you and Lucio is one thing. You guys will resolve it anyway. To me the most important thing is the introspection following feeling hurt. Whatever you come up with will help you in future interactions. I know you did not request any advice so feel free to ignore it. That's my general stance on things anyway: "what can I learn from this?". And in my opinion not taking things personally is a skill that is worth its weight in peanuts (as we say in French).
What I think is that it's totally ok to make fun of people's opinions and ideas. They're just opinions and ideas. They're not us and they're definitely not our identity. That Lucio wrote the "The making of the Ubermensch" or "Eagle" or even "High-quality man" people could make fun of it. And it's ok who cares? People can make fun of our ideas and opinions. To me it's totally fine. Now making fun of us is a different thing. If someone says: "one must be an idiot to think like that" then they're implying your an idiot and defending that it's fine. If they think this is an idiotic idea I would just ask why they think like that. They have the right to think an idea is idiotic. As long as I don't associate with the idea I don't take it personally. There are many ideas that I think are idiotic and that people around the World have.
It does not make me a bad person and it does not mean I think they're idiots. However one risk becoming an idiot if one identifies with an idiotic idea or any idea and is not ready to look at it for what it is that is examine it: "what is this idea I have anyway?" (that is for all of us including me). That is why I don't identify with the left nor the right. It's way too dangerous intellectually. So that means I have to associate with all the stupid ideas that the left or the right has? Nope no thank you. I try to find what is true and what I find is always in flux. As Mark Manson says: "we're wrong about everything". And it's ok. However, we have to live so we have to use transient truths. That is the truth that is practical and makes sense now to us. Nobody can know the absolute truth. So most of the things we think are opinions really. And they might and will change. So being ok with it is helpful I think. An idea good for us if it's useful/value-adding to us. If it is then who cares if people make fun of it.
As I said: when we talk about beliefs and values it can be quite emotional since it becomes about our identity. So I think it's more useful in general in self-development not to identify with our beliefs in values. That is: "this is what I value and believes in and maybe I'm wrong or maybe tomorrow it will be different". So it gives us the fluidity not to be attached to our values and beliefs and therefore not to be vulnerable when we feel they are being attacked.
With some distance I would not write this again. As I said DGX37 you did not request any advice/feed-back from me. So this was an unnecessary teacher's frame.
If someone says to me: "people who believe in spirituality are idiots". I will ask them: "why do you think that?" then they will explain so I understand better their ideas and I thank them for explaining. Now I understand better, I have more intel and it does not change my life a bit. I won't change their mind through conversation, examples or whatever anyway. I may not feel as close to them as before and it's ok.
This is plain wrong. This is thread-expanding on people making fun of my belief. It's like asking: "please tell me how much of an idiot do you think I am and why?". The right answer here is a philosopher's frame: "Well, we all have different beliefs and point view. Everybody's different. Anyway..." and bridge.
I know I wrote way too much. Lots of opinions of mine in it as well. So more opportunities of disagreement. Sorry if that's the case not my intention. I did my best to express my view as there are many threads in there so contradictions might arise in my writing.
Here I self-deprecate too much: I actually look down on myself having written so much. This would have been solved if I did not write about the "taking things personally part". I thread-expands on "opinions can bring disagreement" which is bad. And even worse I say: "my opinions can bring disagreement" which is negative self-frame and low self-esteem. I apologize in advance: "Sorry...." and justify myself: "I did my best" this was to prevent any backlash and aggression. So this is submissive in advance to prevent any conflict. This and also giving unrequested advice is what framed me as "a too nice guy". I framed myself this way first. So this was unnecessary and low power.
In Summary: the communication part you guys will solve it and I would focus on the self-development opportunity. I hope I'm not making 2 enemies in 1 post 😀 (I'm being cheeky here being the 3rd party. You will notice I did my best to talk directly to each of you using "you" to avoid being a 3rd party talking in 3rd person "he" to avoid take any intermediary role which would be a power move but have as much as possible an outside observer role and therefore a 1-to-1 communication and avoid the 1 to 2 communication: me addressing you as a group). In the end it was not quick...
Here I go too much in details about my communication process. Again it was due to previous experiences here to avoid backlash and aggression. So this was also a submissive stance. Using humour here was also a way to sub-communicate: "I mean no harm" which also self-framed me as harmless. I know that in a 3 people communication dynamics, things can go real bad real fast. I wanted to prevent it.
However, to do so in the best way I could have let Lucio and DGX37 solve their conflict first and then maybe add some comment. That would be the most useful stance. Or as DGX37 you said in another thread it's better to first see how the other person reacts before stepping in. I know it's not exactly the same situation as here it's about clarifying communication first but still. The 3rd party has a right timing to come in: not too late not too early on top of having the right mindset/attitude (which I did my best to have). Also I did not want to step in as an intermediary as I said in order not to power move on you guys and also because I did not see it fit here. The request from Lucio was: "how do you guys see this?" and I wanted to address this question only.
So too much explanation here which sounds like justification.
Finally another apology which is unneeded so another submissive stance ("In the end...")
I'm happy if you guys feel like commenting on this.

Alright, my bad I thought it resembled a former situation. I take it back. It's not.

I'm glad it's all behind us now.

I also got caught in the past in misunderstandings on the forum so I empathize it is quite confusing and intense as one does not know how to get out of it.

If in any shape of form I had any responsibility in this conflict, please guys let me know. Whether it's the topic or the way I spoke. I'm working on untangling unconscious behavioural patterns so that would be helpful for me.

I'm going to address my previous message and self-criticize.

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 11:06 am
Hello DGX37 and Lucio,
First, I want to say props to DGX37 for admitting that it still hurt you. I think it's important to be honest with our feelings. I don't mean in any way or shape or form that it makes you weak. As it's sometimes our fear and we don't admit it hurt us. It does take courage to admit it. So I hope it's clear and I'm happy to clarify. To summarize: I admire your courage to speak out. And generally that helps us get to the bottom of things inside of us.

This falls down as it was a misunderstanding: you let it go emotionally.

Regarding your answer, Lucio: I think your messages have both the merit to be clear and honest. That being said I can understand why DGX37 you felt like hyper-relativists were made fun of. To me when I read that it brought an inner smile. So that's the effect it had on me. So I could say I found it "funny" myself. Now, reading your message I can see the distinction and I feel it's totally clear and fair as a distinction. So I think the frame of direct and strong is more accurate in this situation than "making fun". There was no joke, nor humour intended so it was not "making fun" in this sense.

This was solved as you guys already talked about it.

Was it disrespectful to this group? I think it was in the sense of taking status from them (as in value/importance). The truth is that no one likes all the groups so in this sense it's a honest opinion. I don't think the wording was too strong. Maybe I'm biased here. Not because it fits me but because it can be read as an exaggeration to highlight that the reasoning behind the opinion of this group does not make sense (which is another opinion) to you. So in a sense it reinforces the argument that the opinion of this group is not a very relevant one for you Lucio. So in terms of frame it's fair. Using the word "idiots" did frame them as out-group I think. So it was clear to me in the texts that no one here belonged to this group. That you were talking about others and not DGX37.

No change here. You guys talked about it as well.

About saying that one understand that the other did not mean it and still feel insulted is not coherent I agree. When someone says something that offends me and apologizes afterwards if I say: "It's all good" and smile. It also means that emotionally I let go of it. When I did/do not it meant/ means I was holding a grudge and that it was not really "good" after all.

This also was solved as it was a misundersanding.

Lucio, I think your apology message in the original thread was quite clear, rapport-building, vulnerable and an olive branch. You also opened the possibility to write here to further explain and repair the relationship. So I think it was appropriate and collaborative.

No change here.

How I view this (you know me by now) generally speaking: as a self-development opportunity. To me it's the topic of "taking something personally"
"someone is making fun of other people's ideas".
How I view it in real life is that in life if someone makes fun of your ideas DGX37, there is the risk of feeling hurt and defending. So the people who do not have your best interests in mind now know: "oh oh this guy does not like it". So it makes you vulnerable to this kind of attack (generally speaking when someone's making fun of your ideas/opinions not Lucio here).
So to me these kind of events on the forum or in real life are opportunities to think: "why do I feel like that?" and get to the bottom of it. For you. Not for Lucio not for me not for anyone else. How I view it and you might disagree is that it's an opportunity to heal something and/or to remove a button. That's how I view it: a learning opportunity. The communication between you and Lucio is one thing. You guys will resolve it anyway. To me the most important thing is the introspection following feeling hurt. Whatever you come up with will help you in future interactions. I know you did not request any advice so feel free to ignore it. That's my general stance on things anyway: "what can I learn from this?". And in my opinion not taking things personally is a skill that is worth its weight in peanuts (as we say in French).
What I think is that it's totally ok to make fun of people's opinions and ideas. They're just opinions and ideas. They're not us and they're definitely not our identity. That Lucio wrote the "The making of the Ubermensch" or "Eagle" or even "High-quality man" people could make fun of it. And it's ok who cares? People can make fun of our ideas and opinions. To me it's totally fine. Now making fun of us is a different thing. If someone says: "one must be an idiot to think like that" then they're implying your an idiot and defending that it's fine. If they think this is an idiotic idea I would just ask why they think like that. They have the right to think an idea is idiotic. As long as I don't associate with the idea I don't take it personally. There are many ideas that I think are idiotic and that people around the World have.
It does not make me a bad person and it does not mean I think they're idiots. However one risk becoming an idiot if one identifies with an idiotic idea or any idea and is not ready to look at it for what it is that is examine it: "what is this idea I have anyway?" (that is for all of us including me). That is why I don't identify with the left nor the right. It's way too dangerous intellectually. So that means I have to associate with all the stupid ideas that the left or the right has? Nope no thank you. I try to find what is true and what I find is always in flux. As Mark Manson says: "we're wrong about everything". And it's ok. However, we have to live so we have to use transient truths. That is the truth that is practical and makes sense now to us. Nobody can know the absolute truth. So most of the things we think are opinions really. And they might and will change. So being ok with it is helpful I think. An idea good for us if it's useful/value-adding to us. If it is then who cares if people make fun of it.
As I said: when we talk about beliefs and values it can be quite emotional since it becomes about our identity. So I think it's more useful in general in self-development not to identify with our beliefs in values. That is: "this is what I value and believes in and maybe I'm wrong or maybe tomorrow it will be different". So it gives us the fluidity not to be attached to our values and beliefs and therefore not to be vulnerable when we feel they are being attacked.

With some distance I would not write this again. As I said DGX37 you did not request any advice/feed-back from me. So this was an unnecessary teacher's frame.

If someone says to me: "people who believe in spirituality are idiots". I will ask them: "why do you think that?" then they will explain so I understand better their ideas and I thank them for explaining. Now I understand better, I have more intel and it does not change my life a bit. I won't change their mind through conversation, examples or whatever anyway. I may not feel as close to them as before and it's ok.

This is plain wrong. This is thread-expanding on people making fun of my belief. It's like asking: "please tell me how much of an idiot do you think I am and why?". The right answer here is a philosopher's frame: "Well, we all have different beliefs and point view. Everybody's different. Anyway..." and bridge.

I know I wrote way too much. Lots of opinions of mine in it as well. So more opportunities of disagreement. Sorry if that's the case not my intention. I did my best to express my view as there are many threads in there so contradictions might arise in my writing.

Here I self-deprecate too much: I actually look down on myself having written so much. This would have been solved if I did not write about the "taking things personally part". I thread-expands on "opinions can bring disagreement" which is bad. And even worse I say: "my opinions can bring disagreement" which is negative self-frame and low self-esteem. I apologize in advance: "Sorry...." and justify myself: "I did my best" this was to prevent any backlash and aggression. So this is submissive in advance to prevent any conflict. This and also giving unrequested advice is what framed me as "a too nice guy". I framed myself this way first. So this was unnecessary and low power.

In Summary: the communication part you guys will solve it and I would focus on the self-development opportunity. I hope I'm not making 2 enemies in 1 post 😀 (I'm being cheeky here being the 3rd party. You will notice I did my best to talk directly to each of you using "you" to avoid being a 3rd party talking in 3rd person "he" to avoid take any intermediary role which would be a power move but have as much as possible an outside observer role and therefore a 1-to-1 communication and avoid the 1 to 2 communication: me addressing you as a group). In the end it was not quick...

Here I go too much in details about my communication process. Again it was due to previous experiences here to avoid backlash and aggression. So this was also a submissive stance. Using humour here was also a way to sub-communicate: "I mean no harm" which also self-framed me as harmless. I know that in a 3 people communication dynamics, things can go real bad real fast. I wanted to prevent it.

However, to do so in the best way I could have let Lucio and DGX37 solve their conflict first and then maybe add some comment. That would be the most useful stance. Or as DGX37 you said in another thread it's better to first see how the other person reacts before stepping in. I know it's not exactly the same situation as here it's about clarifying communication first but still. The 3rd party has a right timing to come in: not too late not too early on top of having the right mindset/attitude (which I did my best to have). Also I did not want to step in as an intermediary as I said in order not to power move on you guys and also because I did not see it fit here. The request from Lucio was: "how do you guys see this?" and I wanted to address this question only.

So too much explanation here which sounds like justification.

Finally another apology which is unneeded so another submissive stance ("In the end...")

I'm happy if you guys feel like commenting on this.

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#655 · August 2, 2023, 7:15 am

Quote from John Freeman on August 1, 2023, 7:41 pm
With some distance I would not write this again. As I said DGX37 you did not request any advice/feed-back from me. So this was an unnecessary teacher's frame.

I felt this teacher's frame so that may be the reason I wrote

But I understand that you are a kind person and want only good with what you are writing

Which indeed is covert way to address it. What I should really do was to say that I feel a teacher's frame but I didn't want to further cause escalation when the first situation was still unresolved and I knew you are coming from a perspective of softening the conflict so I found it wrong to write it then and thought that it will be better to address it on next occasion when it happens. It looks like the feelings about it seeped through my response regardless.

You were great help in resolving the conflict as you gave me feedback on how my responses came across, which I could fix with further clarification.

If there's something still not okay that I didn't address or if this post is the problem, I would be happy to get to bottom of it.

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#656 · August 2, 2023, 2:04 pm

Hello @bel,

just to make sure, I'd like to know if what you wrote:

constantly shifting positions

"Yes, I said this, but now I take it back as I see it wasn't this but that".

is because I wrote this below:

Alright, my bad I thought it resembled a former situation. I take it back. It's not.

#657 · August 2, 2023, 2:08 pm

No, I realized those things due to a personal experience in my life.

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#658 · August 2, 2023, 2:10 pm

Thank you very much for the clarification. Misunderstandings can happen so fast as you know. I wish you a great day. :)

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#659 · August 2, 2023, 5:43 pm

I remove this post since I feel it actually does not add any value. My bad.

#660 · August 7, 2023, 5:09 pm

Hello @dgx37

On this thread:

Quote from DGX37 on August 7, 2023, 4:09 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 6, 2023, 11:11 am
It's not indeed, but I don't think anyone said that.
Not gonna argue about who said what, not productive.

Total power move and I don't appreciate it at all.

Basically says:

I'm focusing only on productive stuff (and you were wasting time on unproductive BS).

Please be more careful going foward and consider this a pre-warning: the forum is not the place for those types of power moves.

Quote from DGX37 on August 7, 2023, 4:09 pm
message was about
(...)

Not as bad, but yet another power move.

Not true.

Your original message was about a lot of things -just go back and re-read it-.

So to imply that "message was about (this one thing)" is a power move to:

frame the other person as totally off-base (talking nonsense, all his points are invalidated if the message was "about this thing here")
one-sided closure (to your gain, and the other person's loss)
move on with a "I'm right frame"

And the part you quote after you say "it was about this one" happened to be THE most black and white and easiest part to disagree with (the Martha Stout quote).

Which, frankly, gives me the feeling that it's not a good-faith exchage in the slightest.

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