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Struggle for frame control on Tinder (& loss)
This a (failed) attempt and example of frame control by ignoring her frame (after she ignored mine).
A strategic ignoring the frame.
Her question on "having a good time during the pandemic" was pure social cringe. But so cringe that it lent itself to a dark joke.
She didn't get it, though. In hindsight, I could have foreseen that: if she didn't get that her question as socially awkward, she wasn't going to get a joke about it, either.
But, like most attractive women, she still got power of choice, and it shows in her next message.
Her "?" puts me in tough spot.
It's either I explain, and lose all the power, or forge ahead and keep control of the interaction:
"Your pictures look very professional" seems like a compliment, but it's also a bit of a back-handed compliment (sort of a neg), as if to say "you're putting so much effort on your image".
It didn't work, in this case.
But I still think it was the best choice. You shouldn't judge your choices on single results. Results only become kings when you can string hundreds of them and compare.
Otherwise, they're just as likely to be flukes or strokes of bad luck.
I get where you are coming from. Reading the interaction it comes of a bit too confrontational for my taste. Just an observation
There was a propisition by him at the start of the convo (look at the top), my guess is a badly timed, overconfident and most certainly premature one. She ignores to better clarify and reset the conversation to a stage she is comfortable with. He seems not emotionally tuned in. He then feels rejected. Then every response from him is designed to lower her self-esteem, to embarass her - even disqualifying her answers or 'rating' them, instead of a gracious acceptance. This wreaks of insensitive and insecure man, or ceryainly pushing fir sexual disclosure. He's so insecure that he cannot give her a safe space. The male ego in negative. A back handed compliment? No, thank you - playing games. A high value woman would let him go at 'hello is not an answer'.
Quote from Guest on April 8, 2020, 4:17 pmI get where you are coming from. Reading the interaction it comes of a bit too confrontational for my taste. Just an observation
Yeah, I don't disagree with your opinion.
Consider though that she had already spurned my first opening and invite, so the interaction started with her taking me down a peg.
From there, it was either "backtrack, restart from zero", or risk.
That would have meant buying into her frame and ceding leadership, though.
And while not necessarily the end of the interaction, it's (almost) never good when you let the woman lead.
So I risked it.
It went OK.
And then I kept on the risky strategy.
The sarcasm also sounds confrontational, yes. But, at the time, I found it was an appropriate answer.
I personally find it distasteful that while thousands of people are dying and afraid for their families, she asks if "you're having a good time". My answer was used sarcasm to draw attention to her unfortunate question.
If that means being confrontational, as JP said, you have to risk offending someone, sometimes.
The "Quick" Strategy
When you approach online dating with this attitude, you'll get a few blow outs.
But also several fast-moving successes.
What guest 2 calls "badly timed" and "mostly premature", is an opening strategy gambit that has served me incredibly well in cutting to the chase on countless interactions, saving both of our time and screening in the women who were looking for what I was also looking: a good time together, in person, without wasting any time chatting.
Most of the times I've met someone with that opening, it went just like that: a few texts, and a great in person win-win for both.
I still want to do a proper post on approaching online dating with this "cut to the chase" strategy.
Quote from Guest on April 8, 2020, 4:34 pmhigh value woman would let him go at 'hello is not an answer'.
That's certainly a possibility.
More than "high value" though, I would say "high in power".
And while too submissive is rarely high quality, even for women, the two are not exactly the same.
Women high in power would for sure hate that line (which makes it a great line for men who are also looking for more submissive women, BTW, who instead would laugh at that line).
But this is not necessarily a strategy to find "Ms. Wife-Quality" -albeit that might happen, too-.
And you're not always looking for a high-value women.
Sometimes, you're just looking for a woman whom you find attractive, who also finds you attractive, with whom to have a good time together, no strings attached.
Good texting in my opinion and great approach I use the same style. Go straight to the point and cut out the bad apples like the above message. A high quality woman appreciates a man with a strong frame. All the others let them go be unhappy with some other wimp
I feel the sentence that compromised the interaction was: "lol what a question". Her question was rhetorical and merely a tool to keep the conversation going. Albeit a dumb question (we all know many people say dumb things all the time), sometimes it's best to close our eyes if that means it'll get us closer to the goal. A simple reply like "yeah, can't wait for the next one" would've sufficed, as it still shows you are aware of the uncanny nature of the question, but at the same time you're light hearted about it and not overly aggressive.
Quote from tudr on May 17, 2020, 8:03 pmI feel the sentence that compromised the interaction was: "lol what a question". Her question was rhetorical and merely a tool to keep the conversation going. Albeit a dumb question, sometimes it's best to close our eyes if that means it'll get us closer to the goal. A simple reply like "yeah, can't wait for the next one" would've sufficed, as it still shows you are aware of the uncanny nature of the question, but at the same time you're light hearted about it and not overly aggressive.
Very good observation, tudr, very good observation.
"LOL" can indeed be quite offensive when it's direct towards a person, or towards what someone said (instead of the situation).
When it's towards a person, it might be outright offensive. Towards what they said, it's a "superiority play", and it's patronizing. Men sometimes do it to women in their relationships, just to (unconsciously) communicate they're the intellectual authority.
Hence, a "LOL" at someone or to what that someone said is also a huge rapport breaker, since it pushes them down.
So yes, I totally agree with your point.
To be honest, I think you were already doomed to fail when you matched her (assuming this was on Tinder). Lots of girls go onto Tinder or just meet guys in general to play with them as a sort of an ego boost to their very fragile egos. When the woman is dead-set on getting an ego boost by treating you shitty, no amount of power moves will convince her to come over and sleep with you. Unfortunately, this is why it's important to stack the deck in your favour by dealing with a large number of women (which I'm sure you already know).
Quote from JP on May 31, 2020, 5:23 amTo be honest, I think you were already doomed to fail when you matched her (assuming this was on Tinder). Lots of girls go onto Tinder or just meet guys in general to play with them as a sort of an ego boost to their very fragile egos. When the woman is dead-set on getting an ego boost by treating you shitty, no amount of power moves will convince her to come over and sleep with you. Unfortunately, this is why it's important to stack the deck in your favour by dealing with a large number of women (which I'm sure you already know).
Yeah, it's certainly possible she was just there for the attention.
And agreed on dealing with several "leads" at a time. Be it in dating, sales, or buying a condo.
At least until you pick one and give your word. Or if you wanna keep on entertaining different leads, then I prefer not to give your word on being faithful.
