Quote from Growfast on January 30, 2022, 4:04 pm

In these cases, I used to immediately phone my originating colleague, to inform him or her that his client had contacted me again, and offer to share the new case activity and/or the fees.

In all cases, my colleagues refused both to be involved and to share the fees, and told me to proceed alone. Then, in all cases, my colleagues later started covertly aggressing me from then on.

Seems like your colleagues have made this an ego issue. If the client had contacted you and you started working without their knowledge then they could have termed you as stealing their client.

But even though you informed them that the old client had contacted you and proposed to work together and in spite of that when they make covert aggression makes it seem to them that you are rubbing their faces in your gains (Though it's not your intention, some people always have a ridiculous ego and have a dog eat dog world view and fail to see the win-win)

Their covert aggression may have a hidden agenda that you will have to provide them more value. They see that their client went to you and will want one of your clients go to them to see balance in value.

Now when a new client approaches there are a couple of options.

1) Start working with the new client without informing them and if they find out they will still continue the covert aggression because you "stole their client".

2) Inform them of the client and proposed to work together. Which as we see has made them use covert aggression.

Now there are two options here.

2a) if you start working alone with the client now then it returns to a "Stole the client" Frame in their mind.

2b) if you stop working with the client it will be a loss to you and a loss to them unless you both can start work when you both have the time for this.

3) You can work together on some clients of yours whose area of expertise is in the field of the other lawyer. (This will be you offering them value and if someone is still covert-aggressive after this then you can confirm he/she is a value leech).

 

Also after you work together on a client (whom the other lawyer brought to you it's best to mention to the other lawyer that you will involve him/her with some clients of your own if the said client needs the other lawyers expertise)

 

 

 

Quote from B on January 30, 2022, 4:21 pm

Thank you Growfast, your analysis is very helpful.

Quote from Growfast on January 30, 2022, 4:04 pm

Their covert aggression may have a hidden agenda that you will have to provide them more value. They see that their client went to you and will want one of your clients go to them to see balance in value.

This is spot on, I have had many times the feeling that they expected me to involve them on one of my clients.

Issue: I did not have any clients to involve them with at the time in their area of expertise. Or, when I actually tried to ask their help on some of my clients, I felt they gave me counterproductive advice.

My female lawyer colleague: I asked her help on one client of mine who had requested my fee quote for a project. I involved her (it was her area of expertise) and suggested we provide a certain quote. She told me that the quote was not enough, and the correct quote would have been 4 times my quote. I went with her suggestion, and the client chose not to go with us as the quote was too high.

Later I also asked her help with some clients of mine, and she replied in a way that made clear she was not interested in either helping me or working on these cases.

Another male lawyer colleague of mine: I asked for his help in a witness testimony hearing and offered to pay him for his involvement. He refused payment, came with me at the hearing, and when the hearing was over suggested loudly to me, in front of my client, that I should settle the case because otherwise I would not recover anything. I sensed he was deliberately giving me counterproductive advice, went on to the judgment and later won the case. And faded my colleague.

Maybe the problem stemmed from the fact that these colleagues were simply bad people. But I am sure I could at least improve something on my end here.

Now when a new client approaches there are a couple of options.

1) Start working with the new client without informing them and if they find out they will still continue the covert aggression because you "stole their client".

You are exactly right, but at least I lower the risk, so to speak: they may not know I started later working with their client.

Also after you work together on a client (whom the other lawyer brought to you it's best to mention to the other lawyer that you will involve him/her with some clients of your own if the said client needs the other lawyers expertise)

This is golden, I think it goes in the direction of expressing good intention. Albeit it could backfire if I then don't have any clients to involve them with.

Or, as you say, I could outright refuse to work with the client. But is that really the right way to go

Quote from B on January 31, 2022, 3:34 pm

I think the answer must be contextual on the colleague. With these two, no "correct" course of action could really be taken.

In the end, people interpret the world through the lenses of how they themselves think and act.

So if a lawyer is keen on stealing clients from colleagues, your trying to be correct with them will always be interpreted in a bad way.

But this also makes me thing about managing expectations. It may make sense to clarify expectations as soon as I feel pressure from them to behave in a certain way (e.g., give them work on one of my clients):

Me: "Thank you for involving me on this. I want to be clear with you. I do not currently have clients who ask me for ... matters. If I will, I will definitely consider suggesting your name, but I am in no position to guarantee that. Is that OK for you?".

As to what to do if one of their clients comes to me after doing work together, for now I still think not saying anything is probably the best approach, and also more in line with the wishes of the client. Who, in the end, is the one who has exclusive decision power on which lawyer to employ.

If the relationship with my colleagues destroys after that, it will be their fault, at least I won't be abused deliberately simply for having been too correct.

Quote from B on February 3, 2022, 1:36 pm

Quote from Bel on January 31, 2022, 3:34 pm

As to what to do if one of their clients comes to me after doing work together, for now I still think not saying anything is probably the best approach, and also more in line with the wishes of the client. Who, in the end, is the one who has exclusive decision power on which lawyer to employ.

If the relationship with my colleagues destroys after that, it will be their fault, at least I won't be abused deliberately simply for having been too correct.

I kept thinking about this, and I think it is best to be high-level, clear and honest, as this community also taught me.

So I don't think the above is the best approach. In general, I think the straightforward and honest approach, provided the client expressly consents, should be preferred anytime possible, save possibly for the exception where the colleague has already tried to harm me.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 6, 2022, 6:16 pm

Quote from Bel on January 30, 2022, 2:42 pm

In these cases, I used to immediately phone my originating colleague, to inform him or her that his client had contacted me again, and offer to share the new case activity and/or the fees.

I think the call and information was the right thing to do.

It's usually better to address these issues head-on.

But not necessarily sharing the fees.
It's clunky, it takes a lot of your time and you're almost back at square zero: will they trust you you're telling the truth about the final bill?

Sharing the activity was OK as long as the activity was a big case that involved there are of expertise.

Otherwise, a good option is to call them, let me know, and then ask "are you cool with that".
When they say "yes", you say "great", as soon as one client asks me about your area of expertise, I'll get you in touch if you're cool with that.

Such as: give back at a social exchange level more than a purely monetary one.

P.S.:
Just saw you reached a similar conclusion.

Quote from B on February 7, 2022, 1:26 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 6, 2022, 6:16 pm

Otherwise, a good option is to call them, let me know, and then ask "are you cool with that".
When they say "yes", you say "great", as soon as one client asks me about your area of expertise, I'll get you in touch if you're cool with that.

Such as: give back at a social exchange level more than a purely monetary one.

Thank you very much Lucio, your advice is extremely helpful for the following reasons, in which it differs from what I used to do previously. These will undoubtedly make a significant difference:

Asking permission instead of assuming permission

I had not thought of asking permission. In fact what I used to do was "assume permission". I realize the asking is perfunctory, but it may make a significant difference, because it subcommunicates more respect for my colleague.

Not offering to "share" a "gain"

Also, removing the "offer to share" fees/activity may make a significant difference: it equals to treating my colleague more like an adult, and avoiding inadvertently rubbing in his/her face a "gain" on my part, so to speak.

It is more than that: in the first place, this approach (of "not offering to share") also subcommunicates that my dealing with the client is more of a normal exchange (of work/effort on my part for fees) than a "gain", which is actually true.

I think my previous "offer to share" came from a position of insecurity on my part: I felt I was doing something wrong, and the frame was picked up by my colleagues. They bought into my unconscious frame that I was gaining something at their expense (and that's why I felt I had to give them a piece directly).

The frame your advice subcommunicates is instead: "we are together enlarging the pie and collaboration for everyone here" (and that's why we're good: I'm working more now thanks to you, you will work more tomorrow thanks to me).

Offering possible referrals after involvement by the client

Finally, offering to refer to my colleague when I have a suitable client after I am involved by one of theirs is probably more powerful and more "honest" than doing so before.

---

So I will definitely adopt the approach quoted above, that you suggest.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 7, 2022, 1:53 pm

Thank you for the update and for further clarification, Bel.

And this is another golden approach to value exchanges (giving back and, indirectly, encouraging more advice and feedback).

I'll add to this, and will turn it into an advanced approach to social exchanges for feedback and advice (also very helpful to get the most out of mentors and social circles / masterminds).

Quote from B on February 7, 2022, 4:57 pm

I reflected more and, while I take responsibility for my past behavior, there is one piece of my post that I wish to specify:

Quote from Bel on February 7, 2022, 1:26 pm

They bought into my unconscious frame that I was gaining something at their expense (and that's why I felt I had to give them a piece directly).

In reality, I think these were still bad people, and the best way to describe what happened is that they just capitalized on my insecurity to manipulate me better.

They could have just said:

Colleague: "Don't worry, you don't need to share anything. If in the future you have a client that needs my expertise, I will be happy to help".

And then refrain from trying to manipulate me.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 7, 2022, 9:58 pm

Yeah, that's probably part of it.

And if you see it that way, that's most likely the case.

On the other hand, bad players do exist, so it's also up to us to give them fewer chances of harming us.