Former Community – We Moved
🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.
Power duck's journal
Thanks Lucio.
I agree, non called value taking dominance is an easy way to make enemies. And for me, and probably for most power aware individuals a pain in the ass.
Those who "react well" are often submissive / power blind / clueless / lacking in confidence/skills to say anything.
I haven't found yet a high value individual that appreciated value taking dominance, but.... I've found dominant individuals that like value taking dominance: Which makes me think that their dominance is more rooted in insecurity than in actual competence.
The "unfair offer" can be seen as the equivalent of value-taking dominance, which is basically "unfair social behavior".
Meaning:
High testosterone men preferred to lose money themselves, just to push back against unfair behavior nad regain their power.
So by taking value from others, you're making enemies of the higher power people.
OFF TOPIC
I find this really interesting, I also think that it goes the other way around: "Pushing back against unfair behaviour leads to increased testosterone", if it were that way it would make the whole stuff about how technologies/modern food/etc affect testosterone even more interesting, and it also could partially explain why most young folks don't know how to be dominant today.
END OFF TOPIC
Cheers.
Quote from Power Duck on December 18, 2023, 3:47 pmSince the year is almost over and I won't see my college friends in a month, I invited them to my flat, we'll watch some movies, and order things to eat in case we don't eat outside.
Most of them are fun to be around with and don't pull major power moves, although one girl is dominant she responds well when I respond dominantly to her. Also since it's my place and not checking any disempowering behaviour/power moves that I don't allow (opening my fridge, taking things without my permission) will disempower me more than normal power moves, I'll have to use my power skills and be more aware of the dynamics than usual. Once I get in a dominant state of mind it will be childs play.
Met with them today, most of the time it was nice, we had lots of laughs, played videogames and watched a movie.
My sister came home a bit later, but she still spent time with us and came to have dinner with us at a BK right next to the flat.
I felt a bit bad by the end of the night, so I knew that some power moves/negative frames might have gone unchecked, my sistermade it clear when I talked a bit with her some minutes ago: "Two of the girls in the group like to talk a lot, so they often ignore and talk over others". Turns out that I had started to think that "not being listened by others means that my status in the group isn't high/I'm low status" which isn't wrong, however, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm doing anything wrong in terms of social behaviour/dominance. Basically when I see I'm not respected as much as I would like to instead of thinking "I'm not good enough", I think "my skills aren't good enough, I have to be more dominant/smooth/power protecting/etc to get more status and respect", not that much of a difference deep down.
Definetely food for thought: I've been talking more with people when I wasn't paid attention to compensate for the lack of attention and to feel that if I started to be and speak even more dominantly I would get more respect and attention.
Long story short, no more talking about stuff, but rather shutting up, listening more and speaking a bit more with people that listen to keep rapport. Theres a spanish saying that summarizes this really well: "By the mouth the fish dies"
In the end it all comes to insecurity, when one thinks that he's worthy of respect and proper treatment regardless of his skills (since I used to believe that not "good enough" skills means not deserving respect(who knows who determines what good enough is btw)) he starts not caring that much about this kind of disempowerment. Personally, in cases like this it wasn't sadness or low self esteem what I felt, but rather a thought of: "Who the f do you think you are", seems like I almost forgot that. I cant let this whole illusion of having increased status/a "better" group of friends fool me.
Deep down I don't believe in "real" friendship/love, we're all animals, and I do have those same instincts, for better of worse I don't think that thought is going to allow me to genuinely care for someone that isn't blood related to me. No matter the person, if I don't respond correctly to certain situations theyre gonna end up not treating me well, the same probably goes for me too, I don't recall speaking that much/listening that much to low status folks. Looking for acceptance is simply stupid, they don't see/like "who I am", they see/like the social cues I show.
It's knowing that which allows us to behave more like rational beings instead of animals that mindlessly follow their programming:
Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are born selfish. Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their designs, something that no other species has ever aspired to do.
My past self would say that this is overly cynical, thing is that things aren't neither pretty nor ugly, they just are what they are. It's my preconcieved notion of how things should be what gets in the way.
I think there’s a problem in how I see people and overall friendship and love. Thing is, they are based on feelings (who would’ve guessed), not rationality for the most part, at least that is the feminine form of friendship and love that media often portrays.
Actually I would say that “Women want friends and love, men want respect and status”, respect has less bs, less drama, and less feeling, I haven’t heard of enemies being friends, but I’ve heard of enemies respecting each other and acknowledging each others strength.
So this dissatisfaction I’ve been experimenting, may be because of a feminine view of the world, “being loved and accepted for who you are”, “having good friendships based on trust and mutual liking”.
When you respect someone or are respected, there’s no lies there for the most part, you like the other person because he has drive/ambition/strength, if the other part lost all that fire the respect ends, with both parts likely being aware of that.
So that thought of: “people behave as animals” might be because: I view friendships as a woman, relationships based on feelings that can easily change (feelings that may come from our instincts). However seeing “friendships” as a result of thoughness/respect/ambition/drive/strength, things change, there’s no sugar coated lies, no more happy goody touchy feelings with unicorns and magic. Now there’s the raw truth “we like each other because we’re strong, so if you become a wimp be ready to be left out, and don’t expect any other thing to happen”
This seems like killing the inner child to me: forget about all that hope for a happy world and happy friendships, there’s none of that here. Become strong and stand up to lives misfortunes, because no one will care about you or help you, so you better do.
From now on, no more “friendships” but rather, relationships based on respect.
I believe my current friends group may be dragging me down: most of them display dominance mixed with humor, which are basically one ups and rude behaviour with a tone of "joke". Even to the point of insulting each other, it can be fun in some occassions, however the constant one upping and games prevents the frienship from growing closer.
However the fact that they joke with rude behaviour means that if they allow themselves to be nasty as a joke and they aren't angry, they will be nastier when they get angry. They don't gossip much since we're upfront when we say things about each other, but those "jokes" sometimes create a toxic environment. Being treated with respect is also difficult, since the norm is to be rude with each other. Theres a guy in the group besides me, he doesn't get much one ups but he barely talks or participates and listens for most of the time.
I need to change my ways, learn to defend against those nasty moves and become higher quality.
Edit: me trying to please them may be because of this, I don't correctly check certain power moves while I attempt to get closer to them (organising hangouts, asking when someone or their relative has a health problem) while they invest less, don't seem to have much interest in meeting, and only meet when it's related to college.
Hello, PD!
I believe my current friends group may be dragging me down: most of them display dominance mixed with humor, which are basically one ups and rude behaviour with a tone of "joke". Even to the point of insulting each other, it can be fun in some occassions, however the constant one upping and games prevents the frienship from growing closer.
Reading your latest post here, I wonder if it might not also be the case that you are contributing to this dynamic. In this thread, I agree with Bel and John that the you sounded a bit too dominant/one-uppy with your friend. And I also make this same mistake more often than I should :D
Perhaps too much push-pull with the girls resulted in this?
To use a mathematical metaphor, the "sanity check" of my hypothesis is the fact that the other guy in the group is being spared.
If this is the case, then perhaps the solution might be easier than a mindset overhauling or therapy as the guys suggested. I'd suggest removing your own one-ups and go for more genuine conversations. If the group follows, then it's the case of you lifting them up instead of them dragging you down.
Hello Power Duck,
I see it the same way as Kavalier and other points as well:
You: as Lucio said, it’s the opportunity to learn one-upping games that we will encounter our own life. And then move on.
Them: I think you can find better quality people. That is smarter more open-minded people. This guy probably adapted and learned that if he does not want to get shit, he better stay quiet. So basically either enter the arena with sword and shield or stay on the bench. No in-between.
You in the group: I think they undervalue you. It is shown when you give but they don’t value it (asking about relatives, etc.). You invest in them but they don’t invest back. So this group is not a good fit for you (I have the same issue). Also you don’t defend as much probably for (real and justified) fear of rejection.
So in summary a plan could be to:
Do self-development and learn to defend against one-upping no matter what you choose. Then, either:
Go for the leadership: adapt to the norms first then change them and pull the group up as Kavalier proposed. It takes time and energy but you’ll learn tons. That means earning shit tons of status (social capital) then transform it into leadership capital and spend it to change the group’s norms. That might involve ostracizing the most rotten apple. Also you must want to lead them that is like them enough to do so.
Use the group to learn one-upping and move on: self-explanatory
Use the group to learn one-upping, seek in parallel better people a move on when the time is right.
Seek another group and stop seeing them.
That’s how I view it. It’s up to XII
Cheers Kavalier. Thanks for the response man.
Yes, I'm starting to think that my value taking behaviour is also contributing to the toxicity. I started being more respectful with this group of friends, but since I wasn't seeing much reciprocity on certain occassions and I was losing status I opted for value taking dominance without giving much thought to it.
I think that removing most of the one upping is the way to go (as you mention) while also being careful and tacking the core issues that were making me lose power:
- Wanting to be friends with them when there's not enough reciprocity. (therefore thinking deep down that I'm not good enough/must prove myself)
- Over investing.
I will try to go for genuine conversations when I'm 1-1 with another member of the group, but not with the whole group, at least for the moment. One upping is already set in the group and the leader of the group (dominant and emotionally volatile girl) is the most value taking one of all.
Correction: "It’s up to you" of course.
Cheers John. And thanks for the response, you've actually changed how I see certain things.
You in the group: I think they undervalue you. It is shown when you give but they don’t value it (asking about relatives, etc.). You invest in them but they don’t invest back. So this group is not a good fit for you (I have the same issue). Also you don’t defend as much probably for (real and justified) fear of rejection.
While reading this part I thought that them not being a good fit for me may have been quite a precipitated conclusion, but, thinking better about it I may be wrong:
I believe that one of my main problems if not the biggest problems I have is the following mindset:
- Get power and they will like you. So if they don't like me it's because I'm not powerful enough.
This goes back to the basics: I decide how I wish to be treated regardless of my current situation, if I decide that I want a certain amount of baseline respect anyone who doesn't cut it won't be someone I consider a friend and he won't be kept around. If they don't like me for how they think I am that's none of my business.
That's the mindset, I must feel it first in order to apply it as well as I could.
Go for the leadership: adapt to the norms first then change them and pull the group up as Kavalier proposed. It takes time and energy but you’ll learn tons. That means earning shit tons of status (social capital) then transform it into leadership capital and spend it to change the group’s norms. That might involve ostracizing the most rotten apple. Also you must want to lead them that is like them enough to do so.
BOOM. Another reason for improving. Considering how my mindset and objectuves have been since I started this college year, I would say that this changes things A LOT for me, so thanks for that.
Reintegrating the dark side, a.k.a: thinking as if you were already at the top.
I used to think that thinking that you're better than other people is always toxic, yet I'm starting to think that this darker side of self image can be managed so I get all its perks with little/no drawbacks:
- I deserve more status/money/etc than them, and I will get it.
- I'm better than most people, and I will prove it to myself.
I think the ideal here would be to learn to switch this on/off, if one gets too self absorted with this other people can notice and it's a source of mental health problems.
So balance here:
- According to my definition of better, I am better than you, and if I'm not that's going to change. I don't care how you feel, my mental state comes first.
- Being "better of worse" is an abstract concept that depends on the individual, we are deep down all the same and we're equal in the face of death.
The first one to awaken the beast, the second one to put it to sleep.
I might keep experimenting and reintegrating the darkest parts of my psyche, in a smiliar fashion as I did with believing in god, conciously brainwashing myself, being both the test subject and the scientist.
