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#231 · January 9, 2024, 9:17 pm

Quote from Power Duck on January 9, 2024, 9:17 pm
Quote from John Freeman on January 9, 2024, 6:55 am
Hello PD,
on your last note I have a different take. As we talked before if I remember well: they're trying to get a reaction out of you. So they're still getting it. In my mind, these will be passed with ease if one works on increasing self-esteem/self-confidence. In the answer above I would say one can feel the annoyance. Suggeesetions:
X: look who comes here, what happens you didn't sleep well? Hahaha.
P.D: Hahaha, slept perfectly fine and you?
Keeps rapport, be vulnerable (self-esteem/confidence), don't react, show you don't take yourself too seriously (self-esteem/confidence), turn back the table to put on equal footing.
X: look who comes here, what happens you didn't sleep well? Hahaha.
P.D: Hahaha, yeah you're right that was not my best night of my life. What about you?
Same comments as above. Basically I think it's about not caring so much about their opinion. And to do so, it's important to care more about your own opinion of yourself than theirs. Mark Manson talks about it in Models if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks John.
Firstly, thanks for pointing one thing out:
don't react, show you don't take yourself too seriously
Basically I think it's about not caring so much about their opinion. And to do so, it's important to care more about your own opinion of yourself than theirs.
This hit home, when I don't care about what they think of me I don't feel pressured to respond and correct their negative frame. Basically a more "playful" and freer approach.
But also, thanks, because it made it more clear to me that there's a belief I got to dump: "If one gets treated badly/ignored it's because he's low power/not good enough". I guess that since sjws speak badly of Trump he's a low status nobody.... yeah sure. And also, I have to care more about how I view myself rather than how others view me, believing that I deserve respect and doing something about it is what makes one high power after all.
I do like your responses, ignoring their negative frame and not getting dragged into fights.
In the answer above I would say one can feel the annoyance.
Depending on the tone it can show annoyance (I also didn't add enough details to how I do it, sorry), I took this response from a guy that does it quite well (he's quite a fun guy to be around with, unfortunately he does that while disempower others, he does the dionisian dominance pretty well). In his case when he responds to power moves doing that, he makes sure to add warmth, a broad smile, a warm tone of voice, and high energy it's literally as if he was saying hello to a cute puppy. When I respond in that way to power moves I diminish the high energy part.

Quote from John Freeman on January 9, 2024, 6:55 am
Hello PD,
on your last note I have a different take. As we talked before if I remember well: they're trying to get a reaction out of you. So they're still getting it. In my mind, these will be passed with ease if one works on increasing self-esteem/self-confidence. In the answer above I would say one can feel the annoyance. Suggeesetions:
X: look who comes here, what happens you didn't sleep well? Hahaha.
P.D: Hahaha, slept perfectly fine and you?
Keeps rapport, be vulnerable (self-esteem/confidence), don't react, show you don't take yourself too seriously (self-esteem/confidence), turn back the table to put on equal footing.
X: look who comes here, what happens you didn't sleep well? Hahaha.
P.D: Hahaha, yeah you're right that was not my best night of my life. What about you?
Same comments as above. Basically I think it's about not caring so much about their opinion. And to do so, it's important to care more about your own opinion of yourself than theirs. Mark Manson talks about it in Models if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks John.

Firstly, thanks for pointing one thing out:

don't react, show you don't take yourself too seriously
Basically I think it's about not caring so much about their opinion. And to do so, it's important to care more about your own opinion of yourself than theirs.

This hit home, when I don't care about what they think of me I don't feel pressured to respond and correct their negative frame. Basically a more "playful" and freer approach.

But also, thanks, because it made it more clear to me that there's a belief I got to dump: "If one gets treated badly/ignored it's because he's low power/not good enough". I guess that since sjws speak badly of Trump he's a low status nobody.... yeah sure. And also, I have to care more about how I view myself rather than how others view me, believing that I deserve respect and doing something about it is what makes one high power after all.

I do like your responses, ignoring their negative frame and not getting dragged into fights.

In the answer above I would say one can feel the annoyance.

Depending on the tone it can show annoyance (I also didn't add enough details to how I do it, sorry), I took this response from a guy that does it quite well (he's quite a fun guy to be around with, unfortunately he does that while disempower others, he does the dionisian dominance pretty well). In his case when he responds to power moves doing that, he makes sure to add warmth, a broad smile, a warm tone of voice, and high energy it's literally as if he was saying hello to a cute puppy. When I respond in that way to power moves I diminish the high energy part.

#232 · January 11, 2024, 10:28 pm

It's been a crazy day, apparently being emotionally grounded, speaking and moving slower massively improves social effectiveness. Kinda crazy the difference in how people treat you.

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#233 · January 11, 2024, 10:35 pm

Yep, the power of dominance I believe.

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#234 · January 13, 2024, 10:05 am

While revisiting the social power section, I've realised what explained the sudden change in how other people treated me as soon as I started behaving in a more calm and stoic way: It shows a strong front, also, people in general respect more a confident, calm man rather than a higher energy and social guy. Not being very open about one's thoughts and speaking only when necessary while having high power body language and voice makes people think twice before pulling moves.

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#235 · January 13, 2024, 10:23 am

There's also a frame control trick I've used several times that has served me well in some occassions.

Y: man you left all those lentils in the plate? You should feel ashamed, so many hungry children in the world and you leaving those lentils. (Said in a joking tone, it was actually 4/5 lentils I have spilled in the tray by accident.
P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): absolutely it's something to feel ashamed about, how dare he to do that.
Y continues saying similar to the first thing.
P.D: all those children dying in the world and those lentils there.
P.D: are you going to give those lentils in the tray to those children so they can eat?
Y: no
P.D: you should feel ashamed

In that example I disarm the other guy since he expects me to attack back, instead I power align with the apparent high quality frame, in this case in particular since it's cheap virtue signaling I expose the stupidity of the whole argument.

It wasn't that big of a power move, but that's how people usually start before pulling bigger more power moves as we all know.

Funny enough, another counterattack towards a girl who's friends with the folks I hang out with and that used to pull plenty of one ups of me:

X looks at my yogurt disgusted, she said something of disliking the texture.
Y: come on X puke already, puaagh
P.D while smirking: you want my yogurt right Y? You seem to like it.
Y while smiling, makes a sound of having an arcade.
Z: yeah P.D, she wants a bit from your spoon.
P.D focused on the yogurt I'm eating with a disenterested tone: don't propose weird ideas Y.

No more comments or power moves from Z on the following minutes till she had to go. On that day also the fact that I showed a strong front also seemed to diminish her desires to pull power moves.

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#236 · January 13, 2024, 1:12 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 13, 2024, 1:12 pm
Personally, I would have ignored the first one (as it's a lame remark):
Y: man you left all those lentils in the plate? You should feel ashamed, so many hungry children in the world and you leaving those lentils. (Said in a joking tone, it was actually 4/5 lentils I have spilled in the tray by accident.
P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): Yeah, yeah. Regarding the class, [bridge]

It wasn't that big of a power move, but that's how people usually start before pulling bigger more power moves as we all know.
Yep, stopping their momentum, I agree.
X looks at my yogurt disgusted, she said something of disliking the texture.
Y: come on X puke already, puaagh
P.D while smirking: you want my yogurt right Y? You seem to like it.
Y while smiling, makes a sound of having an arcade.
Z: yeah P.D, she wants a bit from your spoon.
P.D focused on the yogurt I'm eating with a disenterested tone: don't propose weird ideas Y.
On this one I think it correlates with the one above and something (along other things you do) that earn you respect: frame identification.
It's in my list of upcoming posts. We talk a lot about frame control. To me, a key skill to acquire in social interactions is frame identification (we could call it frame naming, frame intelligence, frame awareness, frame reading, etc.).
I mean: what is the underlying frame of the interaction. That's why when learning social/power dynamics, you might let something slip because you don't have a good feed-back (one of the different strategies to learn this field). Then you reflect on it and improve. During the reflection period, the question is:
What was the underlying frame of the interaction?
What did the words and action of the person meant beyond the word?
What is the person implying?
Etc.
We can do it on the spot or afterwards. It helps to defend. In the first interaction, really summarized:
Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: Y actually you are a selfish and wasteful westerner (and so am I).
So it's helpful as we can see that the first frame has not been totally cancelled (hence the "so am I"). To cancel it, and do this (mirror defense, perfectly fine):
Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: Y actually you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
One would have to go something like that:
Y: man you left all those lentils in the plate? You should feel ashamed, so many hungry children in the world and you leaving those lentils. (Said in a joking tone, it was actually 4/5 lentils I have spilled in the tray by accident.
P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): thanks man (eat the lentils), what about you? are you going to give those lentils (points to his lentils) in the tray to those children so they can eat?
It's an example, the point is not the exact doing/words is that here eating the lentils cancels the "wasteful and selfish westerner" frame.
And the proposition (ignoring):
Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: What you say is not important nor matters so it has no value, so probably is not even true.
So reading frames is one of the aspects you improved in and people can see that you can now see what they mean behind the words so they're more careful around you.
Cheers.

Personally, I would have ignored the first one (as it's a lame remark):

Y: man you left all those lentils in the plate? You should feel ashamed, so many hungry children in the world and you leaving those lentils. (Said in a joking tone, it was actually 4/5 lentils I have spilled in the tray by accident.
P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): Yeah, yeah. Regarding the class, [bridge]

It wasn't that big of a power move, but that's how people usually start before pulling bigger more power moves as we all know.

Yep, stopping their momentum, I agree.

X looks at my yogurt disgusted, she said something of disliking the texture.
Y: come on X puke already, puaagh
P.D while smirking: you want my yogurt right Y? You seem to like it.
Y while smiling, makes a sound of having an arcade.
Z: yeah P.D, she wants a bit from your spoon.
P.D focused on the yogurt I'm eating with a disenterested tone: don't propose weird ideas Y.

On this one I think it correlates with the one above and something (along other things you do) that earn you respect: frame identification.

It's in my list of upcoming posts. We talk a lot about frame control. To me, a key skill to acquire in social interactions is frame identification (we could call it frame naming, frame intelligence, frame awareness, frame reading, etc.).

I mean: what is the underlying frame of the interaction. That's why when learning social/power dynamics, you might let something slip because you don't have a good feed-back (one of the different strategies to learn this field). Then you reflect on it and improve. During the reflection period, the question is:

What was the underlying frame of the interaction?
What did the words and action of the person meant beyond the word?
What is the person implying?
Etc.

We can do it on the spot or afterwards. It helps to defend. In the first interaction, really summarized:

Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: Y actually you are a selfish and wasteful westerner (and so am I).

So it's helpful as we can see that the first frame has not been totally cancelled (hence the "so am I"). To cancel it, and do this (mirror defense, perfectly fine):

Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: Y actually you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.

One would have to go something like that:

Y: man you left all those lentils in the plate? You should feel ashamed, so many hungry children in the world and you leaving those lentils. (Said in a joking tone, it was actually 4/5 lentils I have spilled in the tray by accident.
P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): thanks man (eat the lentils), what about you? are you going to give those lentils (points to his lentils) in the tray to those children so they can eat?

It's an example, the point is not the exact doing/words is that here eating the lentils cancels the "wasteful and selfish westerner" frame.

And the proposition (ignoring):

Frame Y: PD you are a selfish and wasteful westerner.
Frame PD: What you say is not important nor matters so it has no value, so probably is not even true.

So reading frames is one of the aspects you improved in and people can see that you can now see what they mean behind the words so they're more careful around you.

Cheers.

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#237 · January 13, 2024, 2:18 pm

Quote from Power Duck on January 13, 2024, 2:18 pm
Thanks John.
What was the underlying frame of the interaction?
What did the words and action of the person meant beyond the word?
What is the person implying?
Etc.
Now that you mention it, I think that as well as the "being a wasteful western", one of the deeper frames was: "I'm attacking you (because i can) now you have to defend", responding by ignoring it, flipping his frame, and mirroring conveys many things.
As self reflection:
His attack was dumb and not worth my attention (ignoring)
Your attack doesn't harm me and isn't no longer an attack since I align with you instead of defending and I frame it as an attack towards someone else. Either aligning with his frame and mirroring or speaking as if I were talking about someone else (saying: "how dare he leave his lentils in his plate")

P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): thanks man (eat the lentils), what about you? are you going to give those lentils (points to his lentils) in the tray to those children so they can eat?
It's an example, the point is not the exact doing/words is that here eating the lentils cancels the "wasteful and selfish westerner" frame.
About the selfish and western frame, yeah, I don't cancel that frame. Eating the lentils would cancel it, I believe you pointed that out more as an example to explain the frame rather than a response to defend, since eating the lentils would probably make me lose power.

And actually now that I remember, before that, he pulled more power moves and a nastier one against which I defended:
P.D goes for some salad, but gets little.
Y: I'm not gonna eat more salad you want some?
P.D: no, thanks.
Y: you can have half of it, I won't eat it.
P.D: really? Ok, thanks.
Some minutes later:
Y: you owe me 5 thousand dollars, you better give them to me.
P.D: ok there you go.
Taps his hand as if I were giving him money.
A bit later.
Y: you better eat that salad that I gave you.
P.D: of course.
Later repeated same power move
Then subconsciously I realized that he was inflating and thread expanding on my debt and tasking me. Maybe he gave me the salad only to power move on me.
Y again: you better eat that salad.
P.D: you know what? I think I'll pass, Im almost full.
Y: no, you eat it, you should feel ashamed, I give you food and now you don't eat it. (Again with a "joke" intonation).
P.D smirking: how about you eat your salad then?
Y: no, I'm not gonna eat it, I gave it to you.
P.D smirking: you should feel ashamed of leaving the food there.
Y: you can't give me my food after I gave it to you.
P.D: well it's now mine since you gave it to me, so now I give it to you.
Y: no.
Thanks. I will try more analyzing the deeper frames as you mention, I think I'm getting into smoother frame control. Basically feeling free and saying whatever one wants while sticking to high quality frames.

Thanks John.

What was the underlying frame of the interaction?
What did the words and action of the person meant beyond the word?
What is the person implying?
Etc.

Now that you mention it, I think that as well as the "being a wasteful western", one of the deeper frames was: "I'm attacking you (because i can) now you have to defend", responding by ignoring it, flipping his frame, and mirroring conveys many things.

As self reflection:
His attack was dumb and not worth my attention (ignoring)
Your attack doesn't harm me and isn't no longer an attack since I align with you instead of defending and I frame it as an attack towards someone else. Either aligning with his frame and mirroring or speaking as if I were talking about someone else (saying: "how dare he leave his lentils in his plate")

P.D (in a disenterested and low effort tone): thanks man (eat the lentils), what about you? are you going to give those lentils (points to his lentils) in the tray to those children so they can eat?
It's an example, the point is not the exact doing/words is that here eating the lentils cancels the "wasteful and selfish westerner" frame.

About the selfish and western frame, yeah, I don't cancel that frame. Eating the lentils would cancel it, I believe you pointed that out more as an example to explain the frame rather than a response to defend, since eating the lentils would probably make me lose power.

And actually now that I remember, before that, he pulled more power moves and a nastier one against which I defended:

P.D goes for some salad, but gets little.
Y: I'm not gonna eat more salad you want some?
P.D: no, thanks.
Y: you can have half of it, I won't eat it.
P.D: really? Ok, thanks.

Some minutes later:

Y: you owe me 5 thousand dollars, you better give them to me.
P.D: ok there you go.
Taps his hand as if I were giving him money.
A bit later.
Y: you better eat that salad that I gave you.
P.D: of course.
Later repeated same power move

Then subconsciously I realized that he was inflating and thread expanding on my debt and tasking me. Maybe he gave me the salad only to power move on me.

Y again: you better eat that salad.
P.D: you know what? I think I'll pass, Im almost full.
Y: no, you eat it, you should feel ashamed, I give you food and now you don't eat it. (Again with a "joke" intonation).
P.D smirking: how about you eat your salad then?
Y: no, I'm not gonna eat it, I gave it to you.
P.D smirking: you should feel ashamed of leaving the food there.
Y: you can't give me my food after I gave it to you.
P.D: well it's now mine since you gave it to me, so now I give it to you.
Y: no.

Thanks. I will try more analyzing the deeper frames as you mention, I think I'm getting into smoother frame control. Basically feeling free and saying whatever one wants while sticking to high quality frames.

#238 · January 13, 2024, 2:38 pm

Quote from Power Duck on January 13, 2024, 2:38 pm
Y: you owe me 5 thousand dollars, you better give them to me. (You are in debt, you are power down, I'm power up. You must comply and give the money to me)
He attacks. One up.
P.D: ok there you go. (ignores menacing frame, and aligns with me owing him with words while showing the absurdity with actions)
One across
Taps his hand as if I were giving him money. (I give you nothing, I follow your game of "you owe me lots of money for a little thing I voluntarily gave to you" with a "since it's absurd that I have to give you so much money for such a little thing, I give you nothing and act as if I had given it to you", thread expanding the absurdity)
One up

Y again: you better eat that salad. (Tasking with menacing tone, denying me freedom to choose)
Attacks again. One up
P.D: you know what? I think I'll pass, Im almost full. (States aloud that I have freedom to decide whatever I want, denies tasking. Since I provide a "not big enough" reason to not eat the salad, the attack his bigger, basically subcomunicating: "if I don't feel like eating it I won't")
Ignores menacing tone. One across
Y: no, you eat it, you should feel ashamed, I give you food and now you don't eat it. (Again with a "joke" intonation). (Tasks, and shames me in order to make me follow his tasking)
Attacks again.
One up
P.D smirking: how about you eat your salad then? (Flips his frame, since leaving the food is such a big deal, he can eat him himself instead of complaining. I also put pressure on him to respond. And I push him to defend)
Attacks back by mirroring, now pressure's on him. One up
Y: no, I'm not gonna eat it, I gave it to you. (Thread expands on my debt, and reclaims freedom, follows my frame) (with a indignant tone)
Defends.
One down
P.D smirking: you should feel ashamed for leaving the food there. (Shows his dumb game by mirroring it and showing his hypocrisy, ignores his frame)
Keeps attacking.
One up
Y: no, you can't give me my food after I gave it to you. (Framing me as ungrateful by returning a gift while making a weird "rule")
Ignores my shaming or doesn't reply to it. While trying to deny my attack, it feels to me that he's still on the defensive: "No you can't do that"
(with slight indignant tone)
One up?
P.D: well it's now mine since you gave it to me, so now I give it to you. (Framing me as a giver by giving what's now mine while denying the "rule" he made))
I pick him giving to me the salad and his "rule", I reframe his salad as my property, since it's mine (not his) I can give it to him. I use his own argument: "Yes I can"
Y: no.
Exercising my frame muscles there.

Y: you owe me 5 thousand dollars, you better give them to me. (You are in debt, you are power down, I'm power up. You must comply and give the money to me)
He attacks. One up.
P.D: ok there you go. (ignores menacing frame, and aligns with me owing him with words while showing the absurdity with actions)
One across
Taps his hand as if I were giving him money. (I give you nothing, I follow your game of "you owe me lots of money for a little thing I voluntarily gave to you" with a "since it's absurd that I have to give you so much money for such a little thing, I give you nothing and act as if I had given it to you", thread expanding the absurdity)
One up

Y again: you better eat that salad. (Tasking with menacing tone, denying me freedom to choose)
Attacks again. One up
P.D: you know what? I think I'll pass, Im almost full. (States aloud that I have freedom to decide whatever I want, denies tasking. Since I provide a "not big enough" reason to not eat the salad, the attack his bigger, basically subcomunicating: "if I don't feel like eating it I won't")
Ignores menacing tone. One across
Y: no, you eat it, you should feel ashamed, I give you food and now you don't eat it. (Again with a "joke" intonation). (Tasks, and shames me in order to make me follow his tasking)
Attacks again.
One up
P.D smirking: how about you eat your salad then? (Flips his frame, since leaving the food is such a big deal, he can eat him himself instead of complaining. I also put pressure on him to respond. And I push him to defend)
Attacks back by mirroring, now pressure's on him. One up
Y: no, I'm not gonna eat it, I gave it to you. (Thread expands on my debt, and reclaims freedom, follows my frame) (with a indignant tone)
Defends.
One down
P.D smirking: you should feel ashamed for leaving the food there. (Shows his dumb game by mirroring it and showing his hypocrisy, ignores his frame)
Keeps attacking.
One up
Y: no, you can't give me my food after I gave it to you. (Framing me as ungrateful by returning a gift while making a weird "rule")
Ignores my shaming or doesn't reply to it. While trying to deny my attack, it feels to me that he's still on the defensive: "No you can't do that"
(with slight indignant tone)
One up?
P.D: well it's now mine since you gave it to me, so now I give it to you. (Framing me as a giver by giving what's now mine while denying the "rule" he made))
I pick him giving to me the salad and his "rule", I reframe his salad as my property, since it's mine (not his) I can give it to him. I use his own argument: "Yes I can"
Y: no.

Exercising my frame muscles there.

#239 · January 22, 2024, 4:41 pm

There are several things I'm realising I need to tackle:

Fixed mindsets/insecurities regarding dating.
Sense of masculinity and taking confidence to the next level.

Regarding dating, I believe that no matter how hard I try I won't be able to satisfy girls standards. I believe this is more of a belief born out of chance and bad luck rather than anything.

I know and get along with many girls from my class, none of the cute ones seem interested in anything. One of the cute girls was really into me a year ago, but she didn't seem attractive to me, now I would say it's different. I get along quite well with her and we usually banter. I'll see if I can make something out of this.

Regarding masculinity, I'm already working on it, been a month on retention and I plan of returning to my gym routine as soon as I finish the finals. I've already accomplished being calm in most situations, now I have to add more dominance and confidence to the mix and I may see good results with girls again.

I also plan on getting the subliminals audio John recommended, and I may start running hard for a week again, it's there where my innermost insecurities appear.

P.S:

I'll get up early in the morning and start running again, starting tomorrow.

Thanks for the recommendation John.

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#240 · January 22, 2024, 6:38 pm

Another note:

I tend to underestimate my knowledge and skills. Humility is important but taking it too serioursly can do more harm than good.

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