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Feedbacks & clarifications

#301 · August 17, 2021, 1:46 pm

P.S.:

And just to be clear, these are user-level feedback, not admin.

So Growfast is free to ignore the feedback, disagree, or reject it.
And he can keep on writing as he pleases.

That will mean though that I will be far less inclined to reply or chip in because I personally do care about keeping relationships balanced, I do care that someone takes the time to say "thanks" if my answer was helpful, and I do care if someone answers to me clearly when I talk to him.

And I also believe that is relevant to social strategies and (social) success in general because many people are the same as I am, either consciously or unconsciously (and especially so the ones who go places).

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#302 · August 17, 2021, 3:00 pm

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on August 17, 2021, 3:00 pm
Hi Lucio,
I share similar views on the feedback but wanted to give my thoughts on why it could come across as "strong".
I think there's quite a bit of usage of "you"s:
Quote from Growfast on August 17, 2021, 12:04 pm
The last quiz based on my latest interactions is a nice addition and will definitely help members have more finesse in future social exchanges.
When you say it will help members, you communicate that it's useful to others, but not necessarily that it was useful to you.
The quiz can be helpful to many indeed, and that's why it's there.
But as per this thread, it was also feedback for you.
So when you keep it at a general level and avoid any personal involvement, it feels to me like either a cop-out, or a power move (or simply miscommunication).
A cop-out, because if we're dealing between you and I and you take the "I" away, you're also removing yourself from the communication.
How do I know if you got it, if you agree, if you disagree, or if you think "fuck this Lucio guy, he's annoying me".
I think some people may find it too strong.
Although it's clear as a third-party observer that the statement directs discussion towards the communication and not about the intention.
An alternative could be:
When you say it will help members, it comes across to me that it's useful to others but not necessarily to you.
But I wanted to address our communications specifically.
I prefer if you tell me directly whether you agree or disagree.
It is challenging for me to discern that when you keep the remark at general level rather than between us.
This is what I wanted to address personally. (discern personal clarification from feedback)
I also wanted to give feedback from my perspective on how it comes across to others.
It's important to be aware of this because sometimes this could come across as avoiding the main issue to people who seek a clarification and feels passive-aggressive.
I think the nature of feedback & personal clarification are interlinked.
Personal clarification is a type of feedback but it's more personal and about building a better relationship.
Feedback is more observation-based coupled with advice but more detached from the relationship.
I think
I hope that's clear.
Makes sense?
may come across as strong too. It may put more pressure on the recipient to agree with the frame.
Something like
I would like to know your thoughts whether you agree or disagree.
may invite the other person to voice their own opinions.
In short, my personal view is that
The relationship is indeed imbalanced from a social exchange point of view
Lucio contributed much more.
GrowFast could say "thanks" which goes a long way to show intention to give back in the future.
It will help the relationship if GrowFast addresses Lucio's clarification more clearly
Lucio's feedback may be viewed as a bit strong
I could be missing some parts of the picture but these are my thoughts as a third-party observer.

Hi Lucio,

I share similar views on the feedback but wanted to give my thoughts on why it could come across as "strong".

I think there's quite a bit of usage of "you"s:

Quote from Growfast on August 17, 2021, 12:04 pm
The last quiz based on my latest interactions is a nice addition and will definitely help members have more finesse in future social exchanges.
When you say it will help members, you communicate that it's useful to others, but not necessarily that it was useful to you.
The quiz can be helpful to many indeed, and that's why it's there.
But as per this thread, it was also feedback for you.
So when you keep it at a general level and avoid any personal involvement, it feels to me like either a cop-out, or a power move (or simply miscommunication).
A cop-out, because if we're dealing between you and I and you take the "I" away, you're also removing yourself from the communication.
How do I know if you got it, if you agree, if you disagree, or if you think "fuck this Lucio guy, he's annoying me".

I think some people may find it too strong.
Although it's clear as a third-party observer that the statement directs discussion towards the communication and not about the intention.

An alternative could be:

When you say it will help members, it comes across to me that it's useful to others but not necessarily to you.
But I wanted to address our communications specifically.
I prefer if you tell me directly whether you agree or disagree.
It is challenging for me to discern that when you keep the remark at general level rather than between us.
This is what I wanted to address personally. (discern personal clarification from feedback)
I also wanted to give feedback from my perspective on how it comes across to others.
It's important to be aware of this because sometimes this could come across as avoiding the main issue to people who seek a clarification and feels passive-aggressive.

I think the nature of feedback & personal clarification are interlinked.
Personal clarification is a type of feedback but it's more personal and about building a better relationship.
Feedback is more observation-based coupled with advice but more detached from the relationship.

I think

I hope that's clear.
Makes sense?

may come across as strong too. It may put more pressure on the recipient to agree with the frame.
Something like

I would like to know your thoughts whether you agree or disagree.

may invite the other person to voice their own opinions.

In short, my personal view is that

The relationship is indeed imbalanced from a social exchange point of view
Lucio contributed much more.
GrowFast could say "thanks" which goes a long way to show intention to give back in the future.
It will help the relationship if GrowFast addresses Lucio's clarification more clearly
Lucio's feedback may be viewed as a bit strong

I could be missing some parts of the picture but these are my thoughts as a third-party observer.

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#303 · August 17, 2021, 3:43 pm

Quote from Growfast on August 17, 2021, 12:04 pm
Thank you Lucio for your feedbacks.
The last quiz based on my latest interactions is a nice addition and will definitely help members have more finesse in future social exchanges.

I guess there was a miscommunication between us. Because when I said "thank you lucio for your feedbacks".It was actually meant to thank you for the feedback you gave me(and not in a general level). Also it was meant as a thanks to all the 3 feedbacks in one message as it the first time I am posting in feedbacks page.

Also when I said "it helps members" It included me too.

So Thanks again for the feedbacks given to me and I look forward to us working together and share thoughts.

(I seriously don't know whether I have actually made a powermove in this message so I welcome your thoughts)

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#304 · August 17, 2021, 3:48 pm

Thank you for the feedback, Matthew!
Very helpful.

And GrowFast, thank you for the clarification.
I'm glad to hear it was a miscommunication, and this last message is direct and crystal clear :).

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#305 · August 26, 2021, 2:10 pm

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on August 26, 2021, 2:10 pm
I believe the recent heated interaction on the thread about having access to updates of Ultimate Power as a customer stemmed largely from mismatched expectations.
Shan seemed to expect the lifelong access to Power University when bought in 2019 would include:
Access to Power University and the books
Future updates
Communication & delivery of the updates from the author
I think the third point is where the mismatch in expectations arose the most.
The second point is to a certain degree.
There was also a miscommunication on sending an email to Lucio to ask for an update.
I think Shan probably thought that not all of his emails were replied to.
As such, he thought that Lucio had another email, his main direct email, to be contacted at.
Maybe not all of the emails needed a reply which was why Lucio didn't reply.
I have limited information here as I do not know what emails were exchanged.
2 Issues: Negotiating Expectations & the Issue at Hand (Getting the Updated Book)
I am unsure, but maybe focusing on what needs to be done could have avoided the escalation.
Shan started off talking a lot about expectations which may feel like imposing these expectations.
He also went into more details on these expectations which could have diverted attention away from how to get the updated copy.
In other words, he didn't address how Lucio could have helped him enough.
For example, he could have focused on the email communication not getting through:
Shan: I sent an email to connect@thepowermoves.com but the auto-responder asked me to come to the forum to request for the latest copy.
That happened during the later phase of interaction but it was during the heated phase of the interaction.
Lucio addresses the expectations, probably because it's important for the general forum to take note as well.
Though I think Lucio could move the resolution forward while addressing these expectations.
Maybe starting off with
Lucio: Did you send an email to me?
Maybe it got lost or went to spam.
rather than with the expectations.
Or communicating the expectations implicitly while focusing on moving forward.
I think Shan may have thought that asserting the expectations was unreasonable because it didn't attend to his request.
The big titles may have come across that way although it made the expectations very clear.
Lucio: It would take up a lot of my time to take note of each customer and send each customer an updated copy of the book.
I instead prefer to focus my time on providing a lot of value in these future updates, which traditional self-help would charge extra for.
Did you happen to try sending me an email to get the lastest book?
On using the term debt swapping, I can also see how that led to a misunderstanding.
So maybe we should avoid terms during a conflict resolution unless everyone is familiar with the term.
Then, Shan viewed Lucio's reply in a negative manner and felt the need to reply in a much stronger manner.
In short, Shan's frame is that Lucio should expend more effort to help me with the book updates.
I do think that having to communicate and provide future updates means it's not a one-off transaction anymore.
Now Lucio has to expend effort continuously on each customer.
It creates a lop-sided relationship where the author has to expend effort while getting not much value in return.
Due to the mismatch in expectations, I believe it makes sense to terminate the author-client relationship.
The relationship is strained as Lucio says.
I feel that interpreting some of the other conversation elements is subjective.
At least I don't have concrete thoughts at the moment.
So I will leave this here.
Possible Middle Ground?
Shan gets access to Power University and the book.
However, there is no obligation for the delivery and communication of future value for updates.
In this sense, there's no relationship but it's more like a one-off business transaction.
Money for the product.
My thoughts as a third-party on this forum.

I believe the recent heated interaction on the thread about having access to updates of Ultimate Power as a customer stemmed largely from mismatched expectations.

Shan seemed to expect the lifelong access to Power University when bought in 2019 would include:

Access to Power University and the books
Future updates
Communication & delivery of the updates from the author

I think the third point is where the mismatch in expectations arose the most.
The second point is to a certain degree.

There was also a miscommunication on sending an email to Lucio to ask for an update.
I think Shan probably thought that not all of his emails were replied to.
As such, he thought that Lucio had another email, his main direct email, to be contacted at.
Maybe not all of the emails needed a reply which was why Lucio didn't reply.
I have limited information here as I do not know what emails were exchanged.

2 Issues: Negotiating Expectations & the Issue at Hand (Getting the Updated Book)

I am unsure, but maybe focusing on what needs to be done could have avoided the escalation.

Shan started off talking a lot about expectations which may feel like imposing these expectations.
He also went into more details on these expectations which could have diverted attention away from how to get the updated copy.

In other words, he didn't address how Lucio could have helped him enough.
For example, he could have focused on the email communication not getting through:

Shan: I sent an email to connect@thepowermoves.com but the auto-responder asked me to come to the forum to request for the latest copy.

That happened during the later phase of interaction but it was during the heated phase of the interaction.

Lucio addresses the expectations, probably because it's important for the general forum to take note as well.
Though I think Lucio could move the resolution forward while addressing these expectations.

Maybe starting off with

Lucio: Did you send an email to me?
Maybe it got lost or went to spam.

rather than with the expectations.

Or communicating the expectations implicitly while focusing on moving forward.
I think Shan may have thought that asserting the expectations was unreasonable because it didn't attend to his request.
The big titles may have come across that way although it made the expectations very clear.

Lucio: It would take up a lot of my time to take note of each customer and send each customer an updated copy of the book.
I instead prefer to focus my time on providing a lot of value in these future updates, which traditional self-help would charge extra for.
Did you happen to try sending me an email to get the lastest book?

On using the term debt swapping, I can also see how that led to a misunderstanding.
So maybe we should avoid terms during a conflict resolution unless everyone is familiar with the term.

Then, Shan viewed Lucio's reply in a negative manner and felt the need to reply in a much stronger manner.
In short, Shan's frame is that Lucio should expend more effort to help me with the book updates.

I do think that having to communicate and provide future updates means it's not a one-off transaction anymore.
Now Lucio has to expend effort continuously on each customer.
It creates a lop-sided relationship where the author has to expend effort while getting not much value in return.

Due to the mismatch in expectations, I believe it makes sense to terminate the author-client relationship.
The relationship is strained as Lucio says.

I feel that interpreting some of the other conversation elements is subjective.
At least I don't have concrete thoughts at the moment.
So I will leave this here.

Possible Middle Ground?

Shan gets access to Power University and the book.
However, there is no obligation for the delivery and communication of future value for updates.
In this sense, there's no relationship but it's more like a one-off business transaction.
Money for the product.

My thoughts as a third-party on this forum.

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#306 · August 26, 2021, 3:10 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 26, 2021, 3:10 pm
Thank you so much for the feedback, Matthew!
Much appreciated that you took the time to share this.
Just some quick notes on my side:
On Emails Exchange
The email Shan was referring to was in May.
There was no recent email.
I never replied to her emails in May, so it's totally understandable that she thought she didn't have my email.
And totally understandable she was frustrated because she thought there was no way to reach out to me and/or that TPM wasn't providing her good customer support.
To provide a background: I didn't reply back then because I thought she was either mistaken or trying to score unpaid access to PU. I had looked up her email in PayPal/Stripe and no payment showed up. When something similar happened it's usually because people think they sent a payment but the payment didn't come through (the most common being lack of funds).
When I engage with people in similar situations it's me sending snapshots, them saying they sent it, and then eventually them realizing that "yep, you're right, there was no payment sent".
That's what I had told her indeed when she first wrote on the forum.
I was sorely mistaken though: she was a customer in good standing (the misunderstanding was that she had two different emails for registration and payment).
Customer Contact / Care
I think that, by and large, TPM has so far done a good job at limiting the need for customer support.
And also a good job at providing customer support when needed, while ignoring what wasn't strictly needed.
"Good" is not "perfect" though, and exceptions apply.
I recognize that I provided poor support to Shan.
As a note, there's also a grey area between customers with an issue, and customers "reaching out" for more general stuff.
The autoresponders and requests to go through the FAQs first might annoy some.
They might expect that a smaller biz like TPM where I'm heavily involved on the forum should also be more involved with 1:1.
But it's a price I'm willing to pay.
On Deciding Who to Sell To
About the "resolution" on my end to end the relationship / access:
It's both about power dynamics (I wasn't being, neither wanted to be, fully emotionally detached), and effective entrepreneurship.
Maybe I'll get into the power dynamics later as a micro case study or I'll add as an example on PU for showdowns and power-protecting. I think there are good lessons to be learned.
From an entrepreneurship point of view, I believe it's a fair and effective approach to cut off some users if:
Business, when the costs exceed the benefits (there is one example in the reviews page of PU)
Personal, when you don't like the person, for whatever reason (in the case of PU, it was rude/ahole customers. This is NOT the case of Shan)
The way I see it, freedom and self-empowerment is also the freedom to decide who to serve and who to work with.
It's a common pitfall in my opinion to self-subject oneself to the "pressure" of having to serve just about anyone because "that's what a good business does".
Not too different from what PU also teaches about general frame control: much pressure people apply on themselves is self-inflicted.
It's not grounded on ethics, morals, "fairness", or in win-win (albeit of course those who want your answer, your value, or your emotional reaction will want you to believe otherwise).
Finally, it's worth noting that the end of the business exchange only happens after a full refund.

Thank you so much for the feedback, Matthew!

Much appreciated that you took the time to share this.

Just some quick notes on my side:

On Emails Exchange

The email Shan was referring to was in May.

There was no recent email.

I never replied to her emails in May, so it's totally understandable that she thought she didn't have my email.
And totally understandable she was frustrated because she thought there was no way to reach out to me and/or that TPM wasn't providing her good customer support.

To provide a background: I didn't reply back then because I thought she was either mistaken or trying to score unpaid access to PU. I had looked up her email in PayPal/Stripe and no payment showed up. When something similar happened it's usually because people think they sent a payment but the payment didn't come through (the most common being lack of funds).
When I engage with people in similar situations it's me sending snapshots, them saying they sent it, and then eventually them realizing that "yep, you're right, there was no payment sent".

That's what I had told her indeed when she first wrote on the forum.
I was sorely mistaken though: she was a customer in good standing (the misunderstanding was that she had two different emails for registration and payment).

Customer Contact / Care

I think that, by and large, TPM has so far done a good job at limiting the need for customer support.

And also a good job at providing customer support when needed, while ignoring what wasn't strictly needed.

"Good" is not "perfect" though, and exceptions apply.
I recognize that I provided poor support to Shan.

As a note, there's also a grey area between customers with an issue, and customers "reaching out" for more general stuff.

The autoresponders and requests to go through the FAQs first might annoy some.
They might expect that a smaller biz like TPM where I'm heavily involved on the forum should also be more involved with 1:1.
But it's a price I'm willing to pay.

On Deciding Who to Sell To

About the "resolution" on my end to end the relationship / access:

It's both about power dynamics (I wasn't being, neither wanted to be, fully emotionally detached), and effective entrepreneurship.

Maybe I'll get into the power dynamics later as a micro case study or I'll add as an example on PU for showdowns and power-protecting. I think there are good lessons to be learned.

From an entrepreneurship point of view, I believe it's a fair and effective approach to cut off some users if:

Business, when the costs exceed the benefits (there is one example in the reviews page of PU)
Personal, when you don't like the person, for whatever reason (in the case of PU, it was rude/ahole customers. This is NOT the case of Shan)

The way I see it, freedom and self-empowerment is also the freedom to decide who to serve and who to work with.

It's a common pitfall in my opinion to self-subject oneself to the "pressure" of having to serve just about anyone because "that's what a good business does".

Not too different from what PU also teaches about general frame control: much pressure people apply on themselves is self-inflicted.
It's not grounded on ethics, morals, "fairness", or in win-win (albeit of course those who want your answer, your value, or your emotional reaction will want you to believe otherwise).

Finally, it's worth noting that the end of the business exchange only happens after a full refund.

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#307 · August 28, 2021, 11:10 pm

Quote from shannifyme on August 28, 2021, 4:08 pm
Additionally, thank you for those on this forum who have reached out to me privately to give me their support.

Guys,

As a general rule, if there is any criticism you have for me either on that exchange or on anything else, please please do share it.

I'm also here to learn and grow.
Without criticism, I'll remain stuck.

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#308 · August 29, 2021, 12:03 am

I was wondering about this specific statement too.
I am not sure whether it's a true or false statement.
It could be a bluff.
But then, I was thinking what if it's true.

On the communications, I think we are too used to discussing power dynamics on this forum.
When it comes to clarifications, I believe it would help to avoid misunderstanding by

avoiding terms (I kind of said that above)
not talking about including ongoing discussions in power dynamics discussions

There were very interesting power dynamics and social strategies (and missed opportunities, including on my side) that we can all learn from.

Because Shan is very annoyed, it may aggravate feelings.

6. Customers
We reserve the right to terminate your account and remove access to the courses and product
We may terminate your account and/or your access to the Site at any time if we deem in our sole discretion such to be necessary or appropriate.

Technically, Microsoft can revoke my Windows license too.
So I don't think Shan's analogy with physical products is on point.
Your T&Cs did indicate that you have the right to revoke access to the course.
This is on the business transaction and legal side.

On whether it's appropriate to do so, I feel that crosses into the subjective and personal territory.

The meaning of lifetime access is a complex one to examine.
Marriage is technically a lifetime contract too.
But you can exit the lifetime contract with a divorce.
The same goes for business contracts and buyer/seller agreements.

What I can say is that paying a one-off fee for unconditional lifetime access with updates + communications is a stretch.
The communications portion with individual customers is unrealistic for a business.

I don't think your first message of setting expectations was rude or condescending to the extent of what Shan said.

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#309 · August 29, 2021, 2:10 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 28, 2021, 11:10 pm
Quote from shannifyme on August 28, 2021, 4:08 pm
Additionally, thank you for those on this forum who have reached out to me privately to give me their support.
Guys,
As a general rule, if there is any criticism you have for me either on that exchange or on anything else, please please do share it.
I'm also here to learn and grow.
Without criticism, I'll remain stuck.

Yea, I left a note for Shan in the thread. But, then I felt like that would be re-opening a can of worms if it was already over, so I simply left a dislike to communicate my feelings and let it go.

I didn't reach out to Shan personally, but I was surprised to read that some members might have.

To be honest, Lucio, my feelings on the whole matter are mixed. There are aspects of Shan's point that I agree with and aspects of your point that I agree with.

So, if there's a chance that it could help everyone, I want to leave my thoughts. My head's hit its limit for high-quality thoughts for today, so I'll do my best to share sometime soon.

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#310 · August 29, 2021, 5:53 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 29, 2021, 5:53 am
Quote from Matthew Whitewood on August 29, 2021, 12:03 am
What I can say is that paying a one-off fee for unconditional lifetime access with updates + communications is a stretch.
The communications portion with individual customers is unrealistic for a business.
I don't think your first message of setting expectations was rude or condescending to the extent of what Shan said.
Yes, you are right.
I'm actually not even sure it was written anywhere that the included updates extended to the ebooks, except in the forum -it might have, I'm just not sure about it-.
And in the forum the assumption was that "it's a cool thing to do for active forum users". But that was obviously a nonsense mistake on my side, forgetting the silent majority that doesn't post.
The difference of course is that PU updates are automatically available to anyone.
The ebooks need action on my side.
Might have to find a way to formally describe it and write it somewhere.
More something for the business side of things though.
For the exchange, thank you for the feedback!
As the affected and biased party, I'll refrain from weighing in on my thoughts.
Quote from Ali Scarlett on August 29, 2021, 2:10 a
Yea, I left a note for Shan in the thread. But, then I felt like that would be re-opening a can of worms if it was already over, so I simply left a dislike to communicate my feelings and let it go.
I didn't reach out to Shan personally, but I was surprised to read that some members might have.
To be honest, Lucio, my feelings on the whole matter are mixed. There are aspects of Shan's point that I agree with and aspects of your point that I agree with.
So, if there's a chance that it could help everyone, I want to leave my thoughts. My head's hit its limit for high-quality thoughts for today, so I'll do my best to share sometime soon.
Thank you Ali.
And by the way: no rush, and you don't even have to.
I was referring to private reach-outs.
If private texts contain anything I -or anyone else- might learn from, including criticism, then might as well post publicly and help people improve.
Feedback VS Support
Obviously, there can be and there often is an overlap between the two.
But they have a much different impact on the community.
I think that the best answer when you receive either support or personal attack is to reply: add some thoughts on it, and share publicly why that is the case. Maybe more people can learn from it.
That's the best way to preserve and enhance a community by:
Preventing and avoiding backtalk
Fostering an environment of open feedback
Getting the tools and information in the hands of those who seek to improve
I think PU has an example on it as well.
For example, if one parent starts talking poorly of the other parent with the child, the child should actively stop that.

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on August 29, 2021, 12:03 am
What I can say is that paying a one-off fee for unconditional lifetime access with updates + communications is a stretch.
The communications portion with individual customers is unrealistic for a business.
I don't think your first message of setting expectations was rude or condescending to the extent of what Shan said.

Yes, you are right.

I'm actually not even sure it was written anywhere that the included updates extended to the ebooks, except in the forum -it might have, I'm just not sure about it-.
And in the forum the assumption was that "it's a cool thing to do for active forum users". But that was obviously a nonsense mistake on my side, forgetting the silent majority that doesn't post.

The difference of course is that PU updates are automatically available to anyone.
The ebooks need action on my side.

Might have to find a way to formally describe it and write it somewhere.
More something for the business side of things though.

For the exchange, thank you for the feedback!
As the affected and biased party, I'll refrain from weighing in on my thoughts.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on August 29, 2021, 2:10 a
Yea, I left a note for Shan in the thread. But, then I felt like that would be re-opening a can of worms if it was already over, so I simply left a dislike to communicate my feelings and let it go.
I didn't reach out to Shan personally, but I was surprised to read that some members might have.
To be honest, Lucio, my feelings on the whole matter are mixed. There are aspects of Shan's point that I agree with and aspects of your point that I agree with.
So, if there's a chance that it could help everyone, I want to leave my thoughts. My head's hit its limit for high-quality thoughts for today, so I'll do my best to share sometime soon.

Thank you Ali.

And by the way: no rush, and you don't even have to.

I was referring to private reach-outs.
If private texts contain anything I -or anyone else- might learn from, including criticism, then might as well post publicly and help people improve.

Feedback VS Support

Obviously, there can be and there often is an overlap between the two.

But they have a much different impact on the community.

I think that the best answer when you receive either support or personal attack is to reply: add some thoughts on it, and share publicly why that is the case. Maybe more people can learn from it.

That's the best way to preserve and enhance a community by:

Preventing and avoiding backtalk
Fostering an environment of open feedback
Getting the tools and information in the hands of those who seek to improve

I think PU has an example on it as well.
For example, if one parent starts talking poorly of the other parent with the child, the child should actively stop that.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.