Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Feedbacks & clarifications

PreviousPage 49 of 60Next

Thank you, John. It’s all good, I don't have absolute truths, and I'm also learning in talking with you.

My thoughts are it's a matter of balance and power-protecting. It's possible to write whatever you want to convey in relation to another person's opinion (including the turkey-spiral reference) in a way that is more power-protecting; and one way to do so, may be to objectivize the discussion and make it impersonal.

In this case, my personal opinion is that removing the reference to the source would have been ok. Or, if one wanted to keep reference to the source, smoothing out the language a bit.

It's also linked with repetition. I think referring to another person once, even in a strong way, can be a minor thing (Anon did it once, strongly, with reference to something I said, and he didn't super-power-protect). On the opposite, I think calling into play another person's opinion or words multiple times is probably going to require more power-protecting than average.

 

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and Kavalier have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoJohn FreemanKavalier
Quote from Bel on September 23, 2022, 7:50 pm

My thoughts are it's a matter of balance and power-protecting. It's possible to write whatever you want to convey in relation to another person's opinion (including the turkey-spiral reference) in a way that is more power-protecting; and one way to do so, may be to objectivize the discussion and make it impersonal.

In this case, my personal opinion is that removing the reference to the source would have made it. Or, if one wanted to keep reference to the source, smoothing out the language a bit.

It's also linked with repetition. I think referring to another person once, even in a strong way, can be a minor thing (Anon did it once, strongly, with reference to something I said, and he didn't super-power-protect). On the opposite, I think calling into play another person's opinion or words multiple times is probably going to require more power-protecting than average.

It's clear now for me. I agree with you.

Lucio Buffalmano, Transitioned and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoTransitionedKavalierBel

Thank you very much!

Thank you Lucio, Bel, Transitioned and John Freeman for your responses on my thread ‘Condescending questions’

John Freeman and Bel have reacted to this post.
John FreemanBel

Hello @leaderoffun

A couple of things:

Covert question format

Sometimes I'm honestly confused about whether a post of yours is a request for input (ie.: a question), or not.

The issue with that: requests for input without a clear question format feel like covert questions.
And covert questions are disempowering power moves.

Covert questions are a form of social scalping.
They maintain power for the person posing the question, but that power is power that is withheld from the receiver (hence, it's a disempowering and win-lose format).

Some of your posts did feel to me like questions, or at least requests for input, but without a question format.

For example, this thread, has the title "imagine the following situation".
That title is presented more as reflection and analysis (value giving), than a question (value asking).

Thread-hijacking requests for inputs & social scalping

Sometimes it feels like the questions are in the form of thread-hijacking, or writing a post in another thread, rather than opening a new one with a clearer ask.

That can come across as a dangerous form of social scalping: less personal exposure, less credit-giving, while seeking the same type of value and benefits.
Plus, with the added cost of potentially bringing the whole thread off-topic.

For example, in this thread, the sentence structure is "I'd love to read Lucio's take on hiring, as in you are the person hiring others."
But it's not a new thread, it's within an old one with the opposite topic, and there is no direct question.
If Lucio answers that, he acted on a statement, gets little to no credit for taking time to answer (plus, goes off-topic).

In this other thread, the sentence structure is ""On business, I'd love to know more about what makes Seth Godin's AltMBA work".
And the message after that was "In a way, PU also competes with traditional masters (if they are really targeting promotion of middle managers to upper middle managers, and perhaps 'exec'). This is PU's core value proposition too?"

What's the thing, there?

Again, it's a mix of statements (self-framing as an authority), and then asking for more info, but in an indirect way (ie.: "I already have my own analysis, if you confirm, I'm right, if you disagree, you didn't give me any value because we're discussing".

Subjective opinions turn into disempowering statements

I felt that some of those indirect questions turned into statements were disempowering toward TPM.

For example, this thread was fantastic.

However, the format was of definitive statements, rather than a subjective experience:

The cynicism in PU percolates my perception of reality. And the cynicism is strong in it: there's something for everyone in your life, your boss, your girlfriend, your coworkers.

And:

I read about 1hr per day PU/forums and the material is highly cynical, all about how to defend from manipulators, aholes, takers, dark triad people.

The effect it's having on you is real, and may be shared by others.
It deserves attention and being properly addressed.

But when the format goes from "for me" to "this is how it is", it's higher power for the speaker, but disempowering for the receiver.

I find that jarring to read, also because both TPM and PU go the extra length to make it clear that over-cynicism is ineffective and bad for you.

The power-protecting version would be "to me, it felt like... ".

And in this other thread:

Sociopaths are doing something more than what we study at TPM

Again, it's a fair opinion, and potentially super valuable to improve PU.

It made me reflect on a few things that PU can better stress or introduce, especially the leadership section, and in the intersection between leadership and manipulation (something it's in my notes to address).

But I also don't fully agree with that assumption, and I haven't seen many agreeing with it.
And when an opinion is presented as a foregone conclusion, it becomes a power move.

And, between us, I also didn't think the example in that post was a great move at all.
If anything, it made me think there was a misunderstanding.
But, again, it felt in-between a statement or request for info (covert question). And replying to it would put me in a bad defensive position instead of a value-giving position, so I skipped it.

Thanking or giving feedback for replies / ideas: still useful

This was a previous feedback as well.

I've noticed you've done it more often now, thank you for that.

Still, not always, and now we get to the latest thread that prompted me to write this post.

The title is "some more reflections on... ".

And those reflections had a lot of assumptions that, in my opinion, were not correct.

However, since the post is in the form of analysis, if I jump in to share my opinion, I give value, without getting any credit for it.
The frame and dynamic is:

  1. My analysis
  2. You disagree
  3. We discuss as equals if I even reply (I put myself at risk of being power moved with an ignore)
  4. You gave me no value, just disagreed

That's a power move because it switches the power tables on the person adding value:

When I disagree with a covert question posed in an analysis format I'm in "disagree mode" (value taker), rather "give value mode".
I risk coming across as confrontational, defensive, or cantankerous. Such as, I lose out by sharing, rather than gaining. And nobody wants to enter that sucker's trade -least of all, power-aware folks :)-.

This time I felt the misunderstanding was fundamental enough to address, also for other readers, so I did share my opinion.

In your reply, you say the message was not clear (would have been more power-protecting and effective to say "I am not sure I understand", BTW), fair enough.

But prefacing it with "thank you for the input" would have still gone a long way.
And, of course, if it was a request for input, making the initial thread into a clearer question, would have been even better.

The goal of power awareness: getting rid of unconscious power moves for character development

A benefit of learning power dynamics that we haven't stressed enough (that'll be the eagle article/lesson) is character development.

One of the main benefits of learning power moves is also to get rid of them -or, at least, avoiding them with the people we want to show respect to, and have a win-win interaction with-.

So by that token, it's good to avoid anything that might come across as a covert question, or that might make us come across as ungrateful for the input received.

Kavalier and leaderoffun have reacted to this post.
Kavalierleaderoffun
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Amazing, amazing write up that adds tons of value to my life!

Thanks so much Lucio for taking the time to write it down, I agree on what you say but couldn't put it to words before. I see this in myself! You nailed it. And it's super important for me to iron out any miscommunication or misunderstanding 'hot spots'. This is not something people would tell you in real life so damn hard feedback to get (Thank you TPM forums, the gift that keeps giving!). I have to take my time to digest it and write it up, but wanted to thank you immediately. To everyone at TPM, sorry about adding noise with this tiny 'thank you' post (I know it will pop up on the 'activity' tab and will steal a bit of your attention, which I value a lot). And thank you all for make this forum this incredibly valuable thing. I'll write more later today.

 

Lucio Buffalmano, Ali Scarlett and Kavalier have reacted to this post.
Lucio BuffalmanoAli ScarlettKavalier
Quote from leaderoffun on October 12, 2022, 12:43 pm

Amazing, amazing write up that adds tons of value to my life!

Thanks so much Lucio for taking the time to write it down, I agree on what you say but couldn't put it to words before. I see this in myself! You nailed it. And it's super important for me to iron out any miscommunication or misunderstanding 'hot spots'. This is not something people would tell you in real life so damn hard feedback to get (Thank you TPM forums, the gift that keeps giving!). I have to take my time to digest it and write it up, but wanted to thank you immediately. To everyone at TPM, sorry about adding noise with this tiny 'thank you' post (I know it will pop up on the 'activity' tab and will steal a bit of your attention, which I value a lot). And thank you all for make this forum this incredibly valuable thing. I'll write more later today.

Thank you LoF, what an awesome, awesome reply and display of an antifragile ego and attitude.

It's often a risk to write on this thread and to give feedback in general, and the worry of creating a shitstorm is a real risk that often prevents people from giving feedback.
So it's super encouraging to see non-defensive reactions, and let alone positive reactions.

And if you have anything to add to it, or disagree, or if you change your mind, feel free to share it at any time.

Thank you for this, and for providing such a great example.

Ali Scarlett and Kavalier have reacted to this post.
Ali ScarlettKavalier
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Agreed, was so happy to see such a positive response to feedback, if Lucio ever creates a "super-like" function in the future, LOF's post here has mine :).

Lucio Buffalmano and leaderoffun have reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmanoleaderoffun

Covert question format

I was not aware that a cover question is a power move (is this on PU? I can't remember).

For example, this thread, has the title "imagine the following situation".
That title is presented more as reflection and analysis (value giving), than a question (value asking).

The question in that thread (the taker's defense power move: give even less, see the reaction") is:

> What do you think the giver can do in this situation?

So I can't agree that there was no question on that particular thread, but I agree that I may post things that are not a question (as in [this thread](https://thepowermoves.com/forum/topic/topic-suggestion-hiring-process/#postid-14753), or this [other thread](https://thepowermoves.com/forum/topic/what-courses-would-you-like-to-see-tpm-review-next/#postid-14655)) so I think the criticism is valid.

I didn't understand that the culture of TPM is question answer. Quora? Yes. Stack Exchange? Yes. TPM and in general forums? Not in my experience. In fact, many topics are journals, with titles like 'my journey to power' or 'The Social Strategist: reviews + positive feedback.' So I took it TPM is more like Discourse/traditional forums rather than like Quora.

Thread-hijacking requests for inputs & social scalping

 

I agree that https://thepowermoves.com/forum/topic/topic-suggestion-hiring-process/#postid-14753 should have been an individual post as a question, and that it was off-topic. Oh, I just saw the title of the thread "Topic suggestion: Hiring process." Then I don't think it was off topic. It was saying 'me too' or +1 on the topic, but for both sides (interviewee and interviewer). Poor wording, I know.

Suggestion for improvement: Maybe the thread title should be shown? right now, I have to read it from the url. Not sure the forum software allows for that. It would help me (perhaps others) not to post offtopic if the title is clearly seen.

 "_In a way, PU also competes with traditional masters (if they are really targeting promotion of middle managers to upper middle managers, and perhaps 'exec'). This is PU's core value proposition too?_"

What's the thing, there?

Again, it's a mix of statements (self-framing as an authority), and then asking for more info, but in an indirect way (ie.: "I already have my own analysis, if you confirm, I'm right, if you disagree, you didn't give me any value because we're discussing"

It's not well written (my fault), but what this meant is that these 3 things, PU, altMBA and traditional MBAs solve the problem of getting ahead in the workplace. They target the same persona: someone who want to do better careerwise.

I was trying to make the point that researching why altMBA works can be beneficial to TPM/PU, because altMBA seems to have happy customers with a very different format. I'm very curious on how they run things because I've been reading about communities for a long time and I'm ambivalent on their ROI. So I would really love it if someone who did altMBA and PU would compare them, format-wise. Other people studying communities, like Rob Fitz, also are curious because he knows they are doing well but it's not clear from the outside why.

"I already have my own analysis, if you confirm, I'm right, if you disagree, you didn't give me any value because we're discussing".

Two things come to mind:

  1.  Me holding that belief in the quote would be a giant case of confirmation bias/soldier mindset, and something I try to avoid.
  2. And I don't think if we disagree you didn't give me any value. Listening to people who just confirm what you think, like 'yes men' or bubbles in forums/social is a problem. Plus we have disagreed here plenty of times and I don't think we added no value to each other when we did. Do I have my own analysis? probably, everyone does. I like to challenge it, if possible with data or informed opinion (and this is why I'm here). Do I change my mind? Sure.

In this particular example, I have a bit of a bias towards altMBA being a cult around Godin, and 'edutaintment' rather than adding value. But I don't know this for a fact and I'm very curious, because in a way it's diametrically opposite to PU.

Subjective opinions turn into disempowering statements

I think this a consequence of reading a lot of authors that use subjetive opinions without framing them as opinions. Examples: Paul Graham, Peter Zeihan, Caleb Jones.

It's also the writing style 'in vogue' on twitter.

I do get that this is disempowering now and that framing them as opinion is power protecting. And I promise I'll pay more attention to this in the future! Great learning.

When an opinion is presented as a foregone conclusion, it becomes a power move

Gold.

 

Thanking or giving feedback for replies / ideas: still useful

 

 

Agreed here that more thanking and appreciation is always good.

One point that I find more troubling:
>

**We discuss as equals _if I even reply_** (I put myself at risk of being power moved with an ignore)

1. I will always discuss as equals, even if there's a power differential. In fact I think you Lucio recommend this in the masterpiece 'enlightened invididualist' post
2. 'Even if I reply' is a problem. Sometimes I want to reply something matching the effort of the person who responded as a thanks. Even if I don't agree. Still writing long-form in a half-way coherent style is a serious effort for me, and a big investment. I can't really reply long form to everything as I'd like to. And this is a problem at TPM as the culture encourages well-thought out responses, not shitposts. So something has to give. That is, some threads that deserve a deep response ends up without one. Don't take it as a power move; I wish I could communicate this better. And sometimes I don't reply because I don't agree and don't see much ROI for any of the sides to keep pushing the topic.

The goal of power awareness: getting rid of unconscious power moves for character development

 

I get the feeling that I powermoved people here (at least Lucio and Kavalier, possibly others who are silent) without intending to, and this is indeed something to work on and fix.

So thanks again to everyone who provided detailed feedback (again Lucio and Kavalier, but also John, Ali, Bel, everyone who I makes TPM a corner of the web I really appreciate).

Lots more to say on this topic but I have to take a plane tomorrow early and need to be rested.

 

Thank you for your reply, LoF.

Somewhat contrary to your first post, it seems like you have some important push-backs and disagreements on the initial feedback.

Fair enough.

I had to quickly jump on for this one though as it bothered me:

Quote from leaderoffun on October 14, 2022, 11:20 pm

One point that I find more troubling:
>

**We discuss as equals _if I even reply_** (I put myself at risk of being power moved with an ignore)

1. I will always discuss as equals, even if there's a power differential. In fact I think you Lucio recommend this in the masterpiece 'enlightened invididualist' post

Man... Come on.

This may be a misunderstanding, but worded like that is a misunderstanding that's damn disempowering to me.

More than disempowering actually, it's really demeaning.

Did you really think that I was saying that, at a personal and human level, you're not equal, that you're below me, and that I'm above you?
Like... Did I ever act like that, or come across like that?
Because such an interpretation says you'd really think very low of me.

Please don't jump to those conclusions because that's insulting -and, in a public space, even potential reputational damage-.

Generally speaking, even if one is convinced someone has done or said something that's really shitty, it's much better to give them the benefit of the doubt and to power protect with something like "may be I misunderstood" and "correct if I'm wrong please... ".

Also, these two, feel like power moves:

  • "One point that I find more troubling": that's the high-register version of saying "you're below my (much higher) standards"
  • "In fact I think you Lucio recommend this": that seems like a "don't be incongruent power move". Such as, to look for something someone has said in a different time and context, and to use to make it seem like they're being incongruent and/or sneaky

But of course, the two things are very different (in brief: the article refers to general personal value, as well as confidence and self-esteem tied to those interpersonal assessments; instead, the post in this thread refers to value exchanges. Very different things. The point in this thread is that the asker is asking for information -a form of value-. If he tries to pretend he's not by framing a question as a statement or analysis, that's social exchange manipulation, which is the crux of "covert question". Finally, one is equal at a personal human level, but not in very specific domains of knowledge or know-how. It's two different things. For example, I'm not your equal in running your business, LoF, or in dancing. You're far, far ahead than I am there and it would be crazy, as well as narcissistically megalomaniac and fragile ego of me to pretend, act, or talk like I am. Furthermore, I couldn't even learn much from you to pretend I'm an equal in those many specific endeavors where you're more experienced than I am)

Sorry man, sounds like a strong message, but I had a strong knee-jerk reaction to that because it really felt demeaning toward me.
I really hope we can clarify and get along anyway, and I want to further highlight that we can be strong and direct on specific issues, while being respectful towards the person -respect that I extend to you even in this disagreement, and that I always will-.

Bel has reacted to this post.
Bel
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
PreviousPage 49 of 60Next
Processing...