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Yeah, agree with John: valuable, fair, and also correct.

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Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Thank you John and Lucio for the feedback!

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Lucio BuffalmanoJohn Freeman

Two quick opinions, even more than feedback.

Avoid "you're welcome!" in good relationships because it thread-expands the fact you've given

From this thread where I thank John, he replies:

You're welcome!

Personally, I'd avoid "you're welcome", especially with the exclamation.

To me it feels like thread-expanding on "yeah, I did give you / did you a favor with that".

And yes, he did give.

However, do you want to expand on that?

In a good win-win, people tend to minimize their giving because the frame is "it's a pleasure to give".

That's why I'd go for something like "my pleasure" or "glad it was helpful".

Happy to read more opinions on this.

A good opinion gives you status, a good contrarian opinion also gives you respect (Kavalier example)

In this thread:

  1. Strider, the OP says the girl he was seeing was a good girl
  2. Jack says "she wasn't a good girl at all"
  3. I not only agree with Jack, but say it was a 10/10 post

From a power dynamic point of view, purely in numbers, it's "2 VS 1".

Plus, the one is more of a newbie in the forum, and more of a beginner in advanced social skills.

Jack and I have lots more status, so already by that point, it was "socially challenging" to disagree.
And twice socially challenging because of the risk of coming across as "naive" when you defend a woman that two people labeled as "not good".

When I saw Kavalier disagreeing clearly and respectfully, I couldn't help but think "respect".
Even before reading the message, I thought it was awesome he went for it and respected the courage / social power".

Of course, two caveats for this approach/situation you can find yourself in:

  1. Don't disagree just for disagreeing's sake because, as for most things, a good thing taken to an extreme is not good anymore (nobody likes the guy who is overly critical of others and seeks status specifically by going against the grain)
  2. Better to make a good point. Not necessarily "right", which in many situations can be subjective anyway, but if you're going to stand against people who have a high "authority score", you're bound to attract more attention. So better to use that attention positively since it can swing both directions (ie.: a great opinion elevates you big time, but if you share nonsense you lose big time, too).
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Ali ScarlettJohn FreemanJackKavalierBel
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Thank you for your kind note, Lucio! The ambience of comradeship even in the face of disagreement that we have in the forum you've put together is one of the things I love the most about TPM!

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I agree on everything:

  • not replying with "you're welcome" (and I find that "my pleasure" is basically the same);
  • and the respect inherent in voicing a good contrarian opinion.

I'll piggyback Lucio by saying that Kavalier has always had my (our) respect and trust and much more from the very start. A pleasure to (continue to) read you, friend.

OFF TOPIC:

It would be good to have an article on a list of behaviors that increase "respect".

I find that the most effective people are those that are able to convey in a short time they do possess and are able to use the high-power qualities.

This applies to each area of life:

  • work (a good lawyer can convey his qualities in minutes)
  • dating (an attractive man can convey attractiveness in minutes)
  • friends/social interactions (getting status and respect quickly).

The idea overlaps with that of winning when you successfully check a power move. It's because the power move one receives is an opportunity to showcase power to everybody present.

Take women, for instance. They are looking (unconsciously) to see how one handles obstacles. If an obnoxious guy gets near and starts disturbing, and you put him in place - attraction spikes instantly.

And the opposite is also true.

I know, I'm just repeating something that's written everywhere in PU. Mostly for my own sake 🙂

EDIT: I was reading an answer on Quora that said that real alphas are loyal, considerate, assertive, fierce in defending those who need... but they are more subtle than dark triads.

The way I interpret it, is that dark triads especially tend to showcase immediately and in quick succession high-power alpha male behaviors.

Why do they do it? Because it works.

So if they do it, a normal person who is high power can also learn to adopt quick behaviors that showcase "good power"... in a good way.

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Quote from Bel on May 25, 2023, 11:46 pm

I agree on everything:

  • not replying with "you're welcome" (and I find that "my pleasure" is basically the same);
  • and the respect inherent in voicing a good contrarian opinion.

I'll piggyback Lucio by saying that Kavalier has always had my (our) respect and trust and much more from the very start. A pleasure to (continue to) read you, friend.

Thank you Bel, super helpful!

Interesting you find "my pleasure" as basically the same.
But the biggest bit of info is that we both see the same issue with that behavior.

If anyone also sees it similarly or disagrees, please do let us know, I think this is potentially something that could end up in PU (or the course/idea more on "social feel").


OFF-TOPIC

Absolutely on "behavior that increases respect".
Of course, it overlaps heavily with all the other high-power stuff, but it deserves its own lesson/article.
Probably asa sub-lesson for the upcoming PU module on "alpha male behavior", since respect is so central for status in male hierarchies (that answer on Quora  though seemed to list the typical "aspirational" values that aren't always that linked to alpha male status. Feel free to open a new topic for it).

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John FreemanKavalierZathrianBel
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
Quote from Bel on May 25, 2023, 11:46 pm

I'll piggyback Lucio by saying that Kavalier has always had my (our) respect and trust and much more from the very start. A pleasure to (continue to) read you, friend.

Compliments from Lucio and Bel, two of the people I admire the most, on the same day!! What a day!! Thank you, my friend. And the respect and trust I have for you is the same. It has always been a pleasure to read your post, your journal especially.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 26, 2023, 8:34 am

Interesting you find "my pleasure" as basically the same.
But the biggest bit of info is that we both see the same issue with that behavior.

If anyone also sees it similarly or disagrees, please do let us know, I think this is potentially something that could end up in PU (or the course/idea more on "social feel").

Lucio, I have a similar feeling as you and Bel. Never thought about this before, but indeed "my pleasure" and "glad it was helpful" are mlre agreeable to hear.

And Jack, I really enjoy your posts! When I see you posting something, even before I read it I know it's good stuff!

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Lucio BuffalmanoJohn FreemanJackBel

Thank you Lucio!

I agree with you. This is helpful for me. “Glad it was helpful” expresses best what I feel and want to express. I’ll experiment with it orally as well. So thanks!

Regarding the “my pleasure”, it seems there are different interpretations. So possibly there is also a subjective component to it. I feel like it’s something that could be open for discussion.

The way I see the social exchange:

Person A: gives (B is in debt to A)

Person B: receives and acknowledges the gift ("Thanks"). (Debt from B to A is settled as it is acknowledged)

Person A: "My pleasure" (to me it expresses that A received as well from B as pleasure is an agreeable feeling, to me it expresses the same thing as "glad it was helpful" as being glad is agreeable to person A. So in my view, it lessens the debt from B to A as A received from B as well: It seems my perspective is not correct on this analysis as it's been pointed out by Bel that it is power scalping and from you that it is thread expanding (power hoarding if the value received is obvious)).

To be honest, this situation is not 100% clear to me yet. I get that there are 2 use cases: when the value given is obvious or not. I don't get why "my pleasure" is power scalping and "glad it was helpful" is not. To me it expresses the same thing. Since it seems there is a consensus on "glad it was helpful", I will use this one.

I'm quoting Bel's perspective on it and also from here:

Quote from Bel on April 18, 2023, 4:26 pm
Quote from John Freeman on April 17, 2023, 5:21 pm

Thanks Lucio!

Hello Bel,

Chris: Welcome to the show.

Alex: Thank you for having me.

ChrisMy pleasure man.

I don't understand here why is it social scalping: isn't it an acknowledgment that he's receiving value for inviting him?

There was a thread where a similar dynamic with regard to inviting friends to a house was discussed (but I can't find it now).

I remember the gist of it was that if the host's value-giving is being openly recognized by people (ie by people thanking the host), the best response is to just thank back to acknowledge the value received:

Friend: Thank you for inviting us!

Host: Thank you for coming!

On the other hand, a response like this:

Host: My pleasure man.

Highlights the "host's giving" even more, and thus is social scalping.

To me "My pleasure" equals "I'm doing it because I want to, irrespective of the value you are providing".

Quote from Bel on April 21, 2023, 6:29 pm

My personal stance on this, after studying PU and reading that thread on hosts inviting people home (here it is, found it), and observing our interactions on this forum, was:

  • when the value one is providing is obvious and/or already recognized by others, to remove answering "thank you" with "you're welcome/don't mention it" as much as possible, especially in the written language, and instead either (a) thank back; or (b) ignore it if perfunctory; or (c) comment on it by saying something about being glad about the situation / results obtained
  • when the "thank you" is a way to scalp and/or there is ungratefulness/no giving back (example: a client saying "thank you so much lawyer!" when it's obvious he is not going to use my services and is going to run away after getting advice), to answer "thank you" in the common socially accepted way (ie by saying "you're welcome/don't mention it").

And Lucio's answer on this topic:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 10, 2020, 7:22 am

Hey John,

In this case, I would actually keep on saying "no, thank you for coming, it was a great time and it was great to see you", and then hug them as you bid goodbye.

It's already obvious you were the organizer, everyone knows that.
And that's even more true if you were also the one leading the group. The leader should be not concerned with keeping too much power: everyone knows who's the leader.

I'd only use "pleasure / you're welcome" if it's not obvious you are giving value.
Or if some specific individual seems to be taking your largesse for granted and/or abusing of it without giving anything back.

But those are the exceptions.
When they tell you "thank you", they are recognizing your contribution, so you can be warm and kind back by thanking them for showing up.

I'm quoting those for the discussion in case it's useful and not out of context. I'm curious to know what you guys think about this.

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Regarding the opinions about a good contrarian idea. I totally agree and felt the same regarding the courage and the quality of the post. Kavalier, you rock! (As usual 🙂 )

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My take:

  • "you're welcome" highlights one was giving and increases the social credit imbalance;
  • "my pleasure" is slightly better, but IMO it has an undertone of "you don't need to thank me", which slightly demeans the other person's gratitude (it probably also depends on the tone/context);
  • "glad it was helpful" is slightly better because it focuses on the benefit given and underlies one cares about the other, but still somewhat highlights the imbalance and the giving.

To me best of all is just thanking back, as a form of "phatic" acknowledgment.

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